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LGS's that fear gouge. Would or will you go back?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by 7thCavScout, Jan 19, 2013.

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  1. rugerdude

    rugerdude Member

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    Are you going out and selling off your high-demand items right now for crazy prices? Why not? If pricing high is unethical then price low and sell immediately.....oh what's that? You wouldn't sell at any price? Congratulations, the AR or AK etc. you're sitting on for your personal use is worth $1800 or $2500 bucks to you (or whatever price you aren't selling it for), so how can you be surprised when an AR is worth that much to somebody else?

    The only people to blame for this current gun market are the buyers. We did this to ourselves. I've never seen so many NIB guns on armslist from private sellers who are more than happy to make the money that the dealer didn't. Even if the gunshops did price things at pre-scare prices they're just doing some other guy a favor who will just buy stuff to flip it. They might as well hand out money with each sale.

    I have a bunch of guns I could make a tidy profit off of right now, the problem is that I'm not sure when if ever I'll be able to replace them (private collection). I'm not even speaking of politics either, I'm more concerned that for a good while after supply catches up that people will have gotten a little too comfortable with the current market and may want to continue making a little more on certain things. There might be a small wave of panic-buyers selling things off but they will be the ones demanding $1200 when the same rifle sits on a store shelf for $900. In the end I think many people will hold onto their scare guns just to avoid the black eye of straight-up losing $600 on an impulse.

    One thing is certain though, it will be a looong road to recovery. While demand can shoot up in one day, supply can not.
     
  2. Bubba613

    Bubba613 member

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    Uh, no. Suppliers have nothing to do with it. It is exactly the same thing. Just in reverse.
    When supplies are tight sellers are in the driver's seat. When supply is loose buyers are in the driver's seat. There is competition for product just as there is competition for buyers, just at different stages of a market.
     
  3. Warp

    Warp Member

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    And supplies are only "tight" because BUYERS jumped their demand up exponentially.
     
  4. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    You can order them. Can you actually receive them?

    I sold a used semi auto rifle recently at a profit. A guy chastised me because "Buds lists them for less," totally ignoring the rather obvious fact that they are out of stock on the Buds website and doubtlessly will be for months. I politely inquired why he was bargaining over my used gun instead of running right on down to Buds with cash in hand to pick up a new one.

    Not surprisingly I did not receive the courtesy of a reply.
     
  5. ID-shooting

    ID-shooting Member

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    Well, just got home from one trusty LGS, bunches of 7.62x39 ammo, big stock of AR mags and....even two AR's on the shelf. One was a Bushmaster for $1600 on consignment and the other a "Palametto" i had never head of before for $800. Price increase, sure. Crazy high, no. NIB mags with green followers were $19.99. $35 for double stack pistol mags. Even had some Springfield M1A's for a cool $1200. He seems to have plenty on his shelves without gouging up to $3000.

    Besides, the lying and withholding were from a different store than this one but I was referring to the same place in both posts.
     
  6. BCCL

    BCCL Member

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    In your example, when a customer tells a dealer (retail supplier), that he can get something for less money elsewhere, that's a reflection of competition between suppliers for that customers business at the retail level.

    My example was when supply/demand work in a customers favor, to bring lower prices at the retail level, they never protest that by demanding to pay more than the retailer is asking.

    To separate things, although when demand swings to far either way, it can allow retail suppliers to be less flexible in pricing up, up or down, if they know their competition can't go much more either way also.
     
  7. Nuclear

    Nuclear Member

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    To be clear, I can afford to pay $1800 for an entry level AR, but I have enough lowers as is. If some ignorant person wants to pay that, fine. But what disgusts me is that there are people who are just getting into the shooting world because of age (just turned old enough to buy a gun) or need (like they have a stalker) who are getting ripped off. We keep telling people the best way to defend themselves is with a gun, and then charge them 3 times what that gun (and the ammo for it) cost a month ago! How is that good for the shooting community?

    I don't always buy from the lowest price source, because I like to support locals and good customer service & relationships with sellers are worth something to me.

    And no, I'm not going to go sell my guns, because I only buy guns I think I want and sell off the ones I don't want as soon as I figure that out. I did sell a fellow shooter some ammo I no longer had a gun for at the price it was selling at before the insanity. Undoubtedly I am a moron and anti-capitalist.
     
  8. Auto426

    Auto426 Member

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    My local gun shops weren't exactly cheap the begin with. When I was out looking for my first AR, a Colt 6940, I found exactly one in stock with a local dealer at a gunshow. He had it marked at $1800. I ordered the same rifle online for $1300.

    I haven't even bothered to see what the current prices are. I've skipped the last couple of gunshows because I don't want to wait in line for an hour just to walk around and see people selling guns for 2x to 3x their normal prices.
     
  9. greybeard57

    greybeard57 Member

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    Just got all my homework for the week done and I see the passion hasn't diminished here. :) or is it :cuss: ;) It's interesting how people respond to assumed slights or how they take things that are strictly in black and white text (or whatever colors a browser is set to display) as personal affronts. :eek: And from people that we don't even know what they look like. :confused:

    Some folks here have to prove something it seems by jumping on and ridiculing whoever doesn't agree with them. Unfortunately some of those folks also have positions with the forum. That's too bad as they are the ones that are supposed to be setting the example.

    I'm not trying to yank chains here or anywhere; life's too short to be an ass, but that's because I'm older and don't have anything left to prove.

    My point of posting here again is to say that gouging is unethical and probably immoral. But some good points have been made in it's defense. However, nobody has adequately (WOW! there's that word again! :eek:) explained what gouging is or at least what's considered gouging.

    My view of gouging is when the supply line prices remain the same, despite demand, but the end-user ends up paying much more than would be normally charged, for whatever reason. This does not mean that proprietors are not free to raise their prices to cover costs of renewal of stocks. Not at all. But get real, they chose to be in the firearms business, nobody but farmers are guaranteed a paycheck. If they are hoping to stay in business because they have two $6000 Stag AR's on the wall then they have piss poor business sense in the first place. If they want a steady income they should sell flowers. At least nobody gripes about $60 a dozen roses when it costs less than two dollars to raise one flower. :rolleyes: Or maybe they should have a good banker and keep an open line of operating capital available ;). Trying to stay afloat by taking advantage of a short lived opportunity is a good way for the bank to come a-knockin however. And although the firearms industry is growing (at least it seems so these last few weeks) that does not mean that customers are infinite. Maybe in the large cities some of you live in but not around here; the customer base is very finite here, and word of mouth will make a business or break it. They gouge around here and they won't last long. There I go talking about making just an adequate profit instead of the ...other thing. It's true they can try for as much profit as possible today or they can live frugally to sell for a long while into the future by being closer to 'honest' in their business dealings. That's their choice.
     
  10. 12gaugeTim

    12gaugeTim Member

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    It's just supply and demand. Demand has increased dramatically, and supply had decreased dramatically. The gun store owners are in the business of making money, just like everyone else, and the simple fact of the matter is that they aren't going to sell p-mags for less than 75 each when they still can't keep them on the shelves for that price.

    The only thing gun owners can do is sit out the storm and let your dollar votes do the talking. But as long as people are willing to buy p-mags for 75 each, people will be willing to sell them for 75 each.
     
  11. JRWhit

    JRWhit Member

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    I guess I should clarify. We talk about the end result which is high prices and scarcity. I don't argue that the higher prices are justified by the demand right now. While there are some out there trying to take advantage by single handedly driving the demand price to ridiculous levels, my frustrations aren't targeted at shops. What they have, for the most part, is the result of my frustrations. So many people needlessly panic and think they need to buy every last bullet off the shelf. I would wager a good percentage of the crazed buyers have boxes of ammo that won't fit in any gun they have. I can understand, given the current climate, why ARs and high cap mags, and certain pistols would be scarce. But in my area you cannot find the following; brick or box of 22 rimfire, 9mm, 38, .357,,O.K. wait, this will take too long. What you can find if you look hard enough: 454 casul, 44mag sometimes, certain rifle rounds in the less popular calibers. Thats about it. No powder, no primers, no brass, No bullets, no reloading presses and thank God, given the number of people rashly buying reloading equipment,no reloading manuals. In short your right. It's a result of the buyers. But it's the result of that, that is frustrating to the regular sporter.
     
  12. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Ok. But that doesn't seem to be an opinion you've supported with an ethical argument, and I'm not sure how you'd construct a MORAL argument about the requirement to sell a luxury item below the market at all. At any rate, you can say, "It's my opinion that..." or just "I don't like it when..." but so far that's about the only argument that's held up, and it only holds up because it is based on nothing but ir-rebuttable wishes and feelings.

    Sort of like me saying, "I don't like lentils." But I can't argue that they are a bad food based on my negative reaction to a personal aesthetic like taste. If others are to accept my view as universally valid, I've got to support it with more than just what my own feelings (or taste buds) say.

    But, outside a state-controlled "command economy" the price ALWAYS goes up when demand rises. That's just basic economics. This is the stuff they put on the first few pages of an econ text book -- heck, maybe even in the subtitle to the book itself! It's how business WORKS.

    If someone pushes the price beyond that naturally developing "market" their product doesn't sell. If someone pays that "outrageous" price, they are contributing to and informing the new and ever-developing market price.

    But the fact that a gun was made for $100 worth of parts and $400 worth of machine time and labor, and can be let out the manufacturer's door for $600 (or whatever) machs nict when there are only 10,000 being made a month but there are 100,000 people trying to buy them. The retail price isn't going to be $600, or $700, or $800!

    The same thing holds true when there are 50,000 being made in a month and only 40,000 people want one. It may have cost $600 to put on a dealer's shelf, but he'll be darned lucky to get even that much back out of it and may take a loss just to move the product. None of us come crying to the forums when we are FORCED to pay LESS than we thought we should! Now why is that, I wonder...? ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2013
  13. larryh1108

    larryh1108 Member

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    IMO, gouging is taking advantage of a sudden market change to unfairly charge for a product already on hand for the reason of greed. I do not consider it gouging if the replacement cost is substantially raised for him to replace the product, however. The law of supply and demand is what our retail pricing is based upon so I do not consider a rise in prices, even if it is 2x or 3x the previous price, as goughing. You can choose to buy or not buy that item according to the price you feel is fair, even considering the present circumstances.

    To me, goughing is when the prices of items of need are raised to a level where the retailer (or supplier) is lining his pockets in a crisis where we do not have the option to buy or not buy. Items like gasoline, milk, bread and other staples are raised when we hear of an upcoming hurricane or snow storm. In the snow states, if we hear a major snow storm is coming, we go out and buy staples in case we are kept inside for days on end. The grocery shelves are usually wiped out of staples when a snow storm approaches or a hurricane is forecast. If a $2 loaf of bread suddenly becomes $5, if that $4 gallon of milk suddenly becomes $10, etc., that is price goughing. People may have a choice of driving to another town for their needs but chances are that town is out of the product, sold at the regular price. You either pay the piper or go without the food you want. I'd say most people don't need these staples because they have pantries full of food but to triple your prices on staples in a time of crisis is taking advantage of the situation to make profit, not to stay in business and replace the item sold at a higher price.

    Gasoline is the best example. We hear an offshore drilling rig is shut down and gas spikes $.20 a gallon immediately. How, I don't know. They say the replacement cost will raise $.20 so it is justified but that gas hasn't even been refined yet, let alone in trucks on the street.

    Goughing is when a small town has 3 gas stations and we hear that there is a major storm comming. Fuel trucks are stuck hundreds of miles away due to snow and ice. All 3 stations raise their prices $.40 a gallon in anticipation of the rush. 2 stations are small and run out of gas at 3:00pm. Gas station #3 is a huge station and he is now the only game in town for a few days. He knows this and raises his prices another $.50 a gallon to gouge the panic buying customer. The lines form out onto the street. Everybody just pulls in and pumps and doesn't care (at this point) what the price is.. they need the gas. This is goughing. Raising prices out of greed and no other reason. Being the only guy in town with a much needed item is where the retailer either holds his prices for his customers or he can decide to screw the customers to line his pockets from customers he know will be back when the crisis is over. Either way, he will sell out so he just lines his pocket while doing so. There are laws against this and I saw several stations fined for doing it a few years back when we had unrest in the Middle East.

    So, there is supply and demand pricing on optional items (not goughing) and there is taking advantage of the general public on items everybody needs (not optional purchases). That is price goughing because in a few days he gets his tanks refilled at a higher price but the price he sold for was in no way related to the price increase. It was related to sticking it to his customers.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2013
  14. jasonmha

    jasonmha Member

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    +1. This thread is the script for Wall Street III.
     
  15. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    So there we have it. "Gouging" doesn't, and cannot, apply to guns in almost any reasonably foreseeable situation.

    As we've said all along, an AR-15 is a LUXURY item. So "gouging" is simply not applicable.
     
  16. BCCL

    BCCL Member

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    It's not applicable on "items of need" either. :)

    Something being perceived as more immediately needed, doesn't excuse it from normal market forces either.
     
  17. 12gaugeTim

    12gaugeTim Member

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    I'm amazed by the people in this thread expressing distaste at "price gougers", and even going as far as calling them immoral and unethical. Saying that it springs from greed.
    "Price gouging" originates at the sources of supply and demand. Period. The middle men gun store owners are just following the flow of a free market, which says that because of a spike in demand, there will be an increase in price. If a stranger walked up to you and offered you $900 for an AR15 you own, you wouldn't sell it, because you know that at a gun show you can sell the same rifle for $2000. The market sets the price, and if you're selling for below that price, you're giving away money.

    ETA: The same logic should apply for full autos. It's not unethical or immoral to sell a registered pre-86 for $15,000 just because it sold for a fraction of that when it was first produced. If you had a full auto you wanted to sell, would you part with it for $500 just because you didn't want to be one of those greedy "price gougers"? No. Supply of pre-86's has gone down dramatically, hence the increase in value.
     
  18. Robert

    Robert Moderator Staff Member

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    Enough.
     
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