Man defending home charged with murder

[macadore]

I kinda have some idea what cops look for, what attracts their attention, what makes them do a traffic stop or a pedestrian check. What attracts their attention is people who are displaying and acting out in ways that many people wouldn't even notice. Cops don't have to work hard at all finding people that need checking out - the fools are practically waving flags and shooting off flares that say "look at me!!".

Displaying takes many forms. Clothes, hair, motor vehicle, possessions carried or worn. Acting out takes many forms. Loud and rowdy, drunk and wobbly, zombied out, furtive movements, shifty eyes, all the standard cliches.

You see, that’s the problem. Cops stereotype and often get the wrong people. You’re saying cops arrest people because they don’t like their clothes, hair, vehicles, or anything else. I believe you. Unlike you, I think that’s reprehensible. If the cops are too lazy or stupid to do the job right, they should be fired before they can hurt innocent people.

If you get time, read The Innocent Man by John Grisham. It is the true story of an innocent man being sent to death row simply because he acted strange and could not defend himself. That made him an easy target. I grew up not far from Ada, OK (where the events took place). I have relatives living there and know many of the people mentioned in the book. I know the lead detective mentioned in the book. Given your mindset, you probably won’t believe the book. I do.

Not that it matters, but I am as old as you are. Age does not necessarily imply wisdom. One year of experience twenty times does not equal twenty years of experience. Some people learn slowly, and many believe what they’re told rather than doing their own thinking. I’m not saying you fit in that category, but your age does not make your argument more credible.

 

[db_tanker]

I have some really nice digital scales I use for reloading.

Digital scales are used by drug dealers so according to your logic I've put myself in league with drug dealers because I am buying the same paraphernalia?

I have some zip loc bags too. Guess I'm screwed huh.......

TexasRifleman,

I have GIVEN stuff like this to an LEO friend, a dear friend. He thanked me and said he would start reloading as soon as he and his wife got a house. Now that I think about it, perhaps I shouldn't have given him the paraphernalia that could get him tossed off the force....

Seriously...growing lights...or sun-lamps...ziploc baggies and scales...I know a few guys who roll their own cigarettes...do we toss their houses because they might have a pack of rolling papers?

No-Knocks need to go away. Misconceptions of who people really are...that is going to be a hard one to address...do you use their appearance? LEO's GENERALLY use that as a precursor to investigation...or so I have been told...

regardless...tis a slippery slope we are on...

 

[Flyboy]

Seems to me that--rather than asking me to be calm, cool, and collected in the face of an event that is specifically designed to create confusion on my part--the cops should be calm, cool, and collected back at the station-house while they're deciding how to figure out if a crime has been committed.

Surely, as smart as police are, they can come up with a method of looking at a plant that doesn't involve a battering ram and guns.

No, I don't accept your premise that the homeowner should have chosen his hobbies more carefully. Down that road lies the path that he get approval from the police before engaging in a perfectly legal hobby. Logically, that's what you're arguing for, just in a hypothetical sense: "what would the cops think." It's the same thing kids think: "what would my dad think if he saw me doing this?"

Citizens aren't children, and shouldn't be treated as such. They should be presumed innocent until the State can demonstrate--with solid evidence, not a tip from a burgular and a "hey, may, it's shaped like pot"--that the subject has done wrong.

I stand by my statement. If you want to get permission from your employees as to whether your perfectly legal hobbies are okay, that's fine; may your chains lay light upon you. As for me, I'll do as I please, within the confines of the law, and if the Powers that Be have a problem with it, I'll raise bloody murder about their incompetence.

 

[Strings]

>Here's the thing - knowing that that is how they operate, knowing that the same thing can come to your house by mistake, it would make sense to identify who you're going to shoot at before you shoot.<

No. It behooves the police, knowing that many citizens are legally armed, to make sure they use no knocks in only the gravest extreme, that investigative techniques are used to verify as much as possible, and that the citizens they are sworn to "protect and serve" are not abused by a technique that has such a high incidence of epic failure

 

[Harley Quinn]

No matter how they have gotten into this situation it is now in the hands of the courts (as it should be) The death of a human being has to be taken into consideration and the courts have to find out the whole story.

Lets say a liberal person who did not own a gun had this happen to him. His door would have been broken (fixed later because of the screw up no cost to him) he would have been waken and rousted. Spent a night in jail maybe.

So what would have been the best tactic the one taken, or the suspected dope dealer in the above scenario?

 

[SsevenN]

Call it bull if you want, but I have known several officers who quite clearly got a thrill and got their kicks from humiliating people, cracking pretty unprofessional jokes on people, generally behaving like jackasses, like they were gangsters who'd caught one of their enemies and were toying with them before offing them.

It's hard to fully describe, but a large portion of police officers today really do act in ways highly unbecoming of their badge.

That reminds me of all the Dash board police videos I've seen of them Tazing a totally harmless civilians. When other officers ask them "what happened? Why is his wife frantic and him crying and yelling?" Its always a response like. " I told him to shut up, and get on the ground, he wouldn't, so I thought- I'm not play'n this game with YOU".....ZZZAAPPP !.......
7

 

[zxcvbob]

Lets say a liberal person who did not own a gun had this happen to him. His door would have been broken (fixed later because of the screw up no cost to him) he would have been waken and rousted. Spent a night in jail maybe.

So what would have been the best tactic the one taken, or the suspected dope dealer in the above scenario?

The person caught in the middle of this has what, 5 seconds after being roused from sleep to determine whether the men breaking down his door are "good guys" or bad guys? Are you suggesting that one should never fight back against violent home invaders just on the off chance they might be police? If he guesses wrong, he's probably dead either way.

His mistake wasn't firing thru the door, it was not having enough firepower. (although I don't know that there *is* enough firepower since we can't have M14's; maybe a 10 gauge shotgun with tungsten shot.)

I can't believe there are judges and police chiefs and captains who still think this is a good idea! Apparently they place no value on the lives of the cops making the raids. (I've got an idea, how about a law that whoever approves such a no-knock entry has to lead the charge?)

 

[Nagant]

Makes me sick. I don't even care if he was growing pot. I am not pro-drug, but for crying out loud... if all it takes to get a no-knock visit from the cops in the middle of the night is some weasel (who apparently broke into the house that week??) claiming to see some "suspicious plants", then I have to say no thank-you to this brand of "law enforcement". I don't fully understand why they have to conduct raids like this. If you think the guy is a risk or something, stake out his place and wait until he leaves for work in the morning... in the light... with a warrant in your hand. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems that sometimes we use a hammer to kill a fly and wonder why things get messed up....

 

[kludge]

This article leaves me asking one big question...

According to the search warrant, the police raided Frederick's home after a confidential informant told them he saw evidence of marijuana growing in a garage behind the home. The warrant says the informant saw several marijuana plants, plus lights, irrigation equipment and other gardening supplies.

If that were the case, why the no-knock raid after dark?

Really... if there were several plants, grow lights, and irrigation equipment, how could anyone possibly destroy all that evidence in the time it takes to knock on the door and present the warrant to the homeowner.

 

[TCB in TN]

If that were the case, why the no-knock raid after dark?

Really... if there were several plants, grow lights, and irrigation equipment, how could anyone possibly destroy all that evidence in the time it takes to knock on the door and present the warrant to the homeowner.

Excellent question, but you and I both know the reason for the NO-knock raid has nothing to do with this!

 

[RP88]

what would be the reason?

The only reasons that come to mind are:

-extend their powers to get away with violating rights in order to meet their monthly quota and make positive headlines for a change
-'have fun'
-get an LEO killed in order to stimulate the application process for new recruits

 

[Wheeler44]

but it seems that sometimes we use a hammer to kill a flyon a glass table and wonder why things get messed up..

There, fixed it for you.

 

[kludge]

Excellent question, but you and I both know the reason for the NO-knock raid has nothing to do with this!

Yes, and I had a very witty, well-though out answer but deleted it.

 

[Vector]

A tragedy no matter how you look at it.

However lets not overlook that this story is clearly told with a slant. Shooting through ones door without knowing who is on the other side is reckless and potentially criminal. Heck it could have been the neighbors wife and kid trying to get help. Had he shot through the door and killed a kid, would it be criminal? My thought is yes, shooting through ones door without knowing who is outside is a criminal offense.
As to the potential of this being elevated to capital murder, that is absurd unless they can prove he knew it was the police and fired on them.

The subtext of this story is to not do drugs, otherwise it increases the chances of bad things happening in your life.

 

[zxcvbob]

My thought is yes, shooting through ones door without knowing who is outside is a criminal offense.

I doubt that "the neighbor's wife and kid" will be trying to bust through the bottom panel of the door. I don't know that I would wait until I could be sure who it was that obviously wanted to kill me... Maybe I would if I knew I had the drop on them... In the middle of the night, I really don't know.

 

[12many]

How does a no-knock raid work anyway?

Given a warrent or prob. cause, Can the police just bust down your door in the middle of the night and rush in? Do they have to annouce who they are? Do they have to wear Cops or FBI in big yellow letters?

If no to all, what is to stop or prevent a homeowner from shooting them once they are in the house because their are mistaken for bad guys? How is the home owner to know? Seems risky for the police and the homeowner.

I understand if it is a known armed bad guy that the police want the element of surprise (and thats cool) but this guy seemed to be a mope with not much history.

Thanks.

 

[Wetawd]

my mom has some of those.... I'm going to burn them right now just in case the cops break in and are not held accountable for there actions because "well it looked like marijuana".

 

[basicblur]

Interesting reading on this subject available

Probably been posted before but I’ve downloaded/read about ¼ of “Overkill: The Rise of Paramilitary Police Raids in America”. You can either purchase ($10) or download free at http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6476 (download link at bottom of page/2MB/98 pages).

Also might want to check out this interactive map at http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

 

[Sage of Seattle]

Heck it could have been the neighbors wife and kid trying to get help

Neighbors often come to your door and try to silently kick it in as a way to summon aid?

Oh, here it is. I just flipped through my New Standard International Distress Signal Guide... "You must first put your foot through a wooden entry door. You must not call out or cry for help, so it's imperative that you keep a pair of sturdy military-type boots handy in case your son is choking on a piece of breakfast bagel. Donning a stylish black ninja-mask is helpful, but not required."

Huh. Guess I was wrong.

 

[XavierBreath]

I'm closing this one.

I would like all members involved to review Oleg's stickie from August last year.

Specifically, consider:

Special care must be taken to ensure that we appear as reasonable and peaceable to the world as possible. Antis are sure to pluck even a rare example of uncivil, bigoted or Rambo conduct out of context and use against us. With that in mind, make sure that remedy of shooting anyone is only considered if all other legal options are exhausted. No more "feed the hogs!" or "from my cold dead hands!" If we ever come to that, the last thing you want is a discussion of tactics in an open forum, where the likely opposition can read and which they can use to justify bigger budgets and heavier armor.

At The High Road, we strive to put the best face possible on gun ownership and the right to keep and bear arms. Ryan Frederick has been charged, but not convicted. Detective Jarrod Shivers is dead. That is really all that we know to be truth at this point.

Much has been written about this tragedy and it is being discussed across the internet gun forums. Information, biased or not, is available. There are other venues for the event's discussion. It has been demonstrated in this thread that there are those here who fail to appreciate the mission statement of The High Road, and who have apparently never read the code of conduct they agreed to when they signed up here.

Because our membership has shown they cannot discuss this incident without "from my cold dead hands" declarations and chest puffing Rambo posturing, I am closing the thread. I regret doing so, I really wish we could discuss these issues with the intelligence, thoughtfulness and respect they deserve. Truly, they are issues that affect us all, whether we be law enforcement or private citizen. Perhaps someday we can discuss these issues rationally and with mutual respect. I hope so. Until that time comes, we will continue to close such out of control threads in order to abide by our mission statement.