So it goes before a grand jury

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It is interesting that all of the police officers who have responded to this thread have made a big deal about Frederick allegedly firing thought his door, even though there are serious questions about whether that actually happened...

We do not know if Frederick fired through his door at the police, or if he fired at an unidentified man who was in the process of breaking his door down.

We do not know if the police identified themselves before taking down the door.

We do not know who fired the first shot at the scene.

We still do not know the identity of the CI who was, apparently, the sole reason for the raid.

We do know that Ryan Frederick had no criminal record prior to the raid on his home, and we do know that no illegal grow operation was found during the raid.

I hope it was worth it.

- Chris
 
It is interesting that all of the police officers who have responded to this thread have made a big deal about Frederick allegedly firing thought his door, even though there are serious questions about whether that actually happened...

We do not know if Frederick fired through his door at the police, or if he fired at an unidentified man who was in the process of breaking his door down.

We do not know if the police identified themselves before taking down the door.

We do not know who fired the first shot at the scene.

We still do not know the identity of the CI who was, apparently, the sole reason for the raid.

We do know that Ryan Frederick had no criminal record prior to the raid on his home, and we do know that no illegal grow operation was found during the raid.

I hope it was worth it.

- Chris
Click to expand...

Actually, we do know all of these things. You don't, yet, but we do.
 
funny i thought fredericks story was he fired through door when a panel started to break has he revised his story or is chris revising it for him?
 
rickoshea said:
Were the cops wrong in how they handled it? Maybe. But they followed the "rules" as set by the court, and did what they thought was the safest course of action. We do know the guy was armed (now), and for all we know the cops knew it beforehand, and that may be why they acted as they did. Or not.

The upshot is that there was a guy who was breaking the law and armed. Can anyone here say positively that if the cops knocked he wouldn't have shot anyway? Anyone here want to be at the door to find out?
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The police took the approach that somebody, somewhere, decided was safer for the officers. Obviously, in this instance it was a dumb choice, on any number of levels. Not the least of which is, it resulted in one of their own being killed.

Why couldn't they have just rung the doorbell at 6:00 p.m., and handed him the warrant when he answered the door? Or ... they knew he had a job -- why not just wait until he drove up after work, walk up to him while he was outdoors and in plain sight, and hand him the warrant in the front (or back) yard?

What are some other possible endings for this sorry saga? This guy apparently had no prior convictions, so he wasn't barred from owning a gun. Suppose their informant (if there really was one) was either wrong or lied? Suppose this guy was innocent ... not just of "dealing," but innocent of even using or possessing any tiny amount of cannabis? So here's an innocent guy, home after a tough day at work, vegging out in front of the telly, and suddenly he hears someone literally smashing in his front door. If it were me -- I'd shoot though the door. This isn't a timid knock that might be the UPS man making a late delivery, or the neighbor kid selling Girl Scout cookies, this is an invasion. I'd be in defense mode. I don't need to see who is bashing in my door to be in fear for me life. Yeah, I'd shoot through the door. And the cops might return the favor and I'd be dead.

All because some idiot judge issued a home invasion warrant on the word of an informant who lied, because I've never touch marijuana in my life and there has never been a single shred of it inside my home.

There are better ways, if the authorities really think they need to go after those who use marijuana.
 
I have a few comments.

First, I don't think that this should have been a raid. Even if it was, 8pm is a horrible time to do it. You have presumably awake occupants, in their own house.

Given the scenario as given, the fact that he had a job makes it easy. You get the warrant and stuff. You proceed to the man's work, with uniformed police officers, and ask for him(or whatever). You arrest him there. As he's outside of his house, you'll generally not need to bust doors open, and he's less likely to be armed.

You then escort him home, or present him the warrant in a squad car before you send in the search teams to the presumably presently unoccupied dwelling. Easy, very low likelyhood of any shots being fired.

Doesn't work in all scenarios, but this one seems a classic case where it would.

In addition, it noted that 50 such warrants had been used in a somewhat unspecified period of time - to me that indicates a 2% fatality rate for rates during that period of time! Is it WORTH a 1 in 50 chance of losing an officer during these sorts of raids? I think not. As others noted, I'd reserve raids for truly serious matters- hostage situations, murderers, and true terrorists. A no-knock warrant(or the pseudo-no knocks) shouldn't be a rubber stamp by any means.

And yes, I'll say that the misdemeanor amount of weed found in a baggie in the garage sounds suspicious to me. It seems an odd area to keep the stuff.
 
Eric F----It is our CIVIL RESPONSIBILTY to disobey stupid, illegal laws.... to do anything else validates those illegal laws.
 
That's right! Tell em, Ricky!

Hey, Ricky, you're so fine. You're so fine you blow my mind! Hey Ricky!

I couldn't agree more. And I'd love to see how well this country held itself together when every single individual decides what laws are important and which ones are stupid.

Tell the Richbutcher and Richcandlestickmaker that I'm going to bed. Babysitting you guys makes me tired.
 
RickOshae-"Because it's their job and they were told to do it. SNIP-

Ever heard of the Nuremburg Trials...."I was told to do it" is NOT a valid defense!
 
Eric F----It is our CIVIL RESPONSIBILTY to disobey stupid, illegal laws.... to do anything else validates those illegal laws.
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so why don't you post the laws you disobey, as they are illegal laws and it is your duty to disobey them.

While your at it, why don't you go down to the nearest LE station and tell them about it, take those illegal laws to court, win and have them changed.
 
PC40- "Unfortunately, the guys whose duty it is to break down the doors (and we need these guys) don't necessarily have the luxury of the weeks or days or hours to weigh all of the evidence for or against the alleged perpetrator, do they? They must, to some extent, have blind faith in public servants whose hind parts will never be in jeopardy, who will never have to face legal action for their decisions, who have hopefully put a few pieces of the puzzle together correctly so that they don't needlessly risk anyone's life over a piece of stinky, mildly psychoactive flower."

The person that applied for that "Warrant" is usually one of the Door Breakers.....They knew exactly what they were getting into...or THOUGHT they did!
 
"The person that applied for that "Warrant" is usually one of the Door Breakers.....They knew exactly what they were getting into...or THOUGHT they did!"

really? can you back that up? or does it come from the same place this did "Eric F----It is our CIVIL RESPONSIBILTY to disobey stupid, illegal laws.... to do anything else validates those illegal laws."
 
cassandrasdaddy says
really? can you back that up?
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in regards to the police that "served" the warrant were the same crew that did the "investigation".

Yeah, the article mentions quotes a spokesperson that claims Det. Shivers was an undercover detective investigating the case. (she also said that although he was "Plains clothed" he
"should" have definitely had some kind of badge on or something) She goes on to state that the crew "staked out" the home on at least four separate occasions ( not noticing any illegal activities) before they took their "evidence" (testimony from a now AWOL "confidential informant") and received the warrant. She states that the warrant was served by undercover officers in "plains clothes" but the should have had some kind of ID with them.

LOCAL COPS IN THIS CASE = FAIL
 
Rich,

".... Ever heard of the Nuremburg Trials...."I was told to do it" is NOT a valid defense!"

That horse left the barn several posts ago. Unless, of course, you meant to say nothing original.
 
MOM:

Actually, we do know all of these things. You don't, yet, but we do.
Click to expand...

Got something to back that up or are you speculating like the rest of the folks on this thread?

An injection of data into this thread would be welcome.

If you can deliver, you will do so. Otherwise, I will assume you are speaking from your fourth point of contact. And are prone to making untrue/unverifiable statements.
 
Got something to back that up or are you speculating like the rest of the folks on this thread?

An injection of data into this thread would be welcome.

If you can deliver, you will do so. Otherwise, I will assume you are speaking from your fourth point of contact. And are prone to making untrue/unverifiable statements.
Click to expand...

Close. I'm speaking from a first point of contact. In fact, I'm speaking from a whole lot of first person contacts. When the trial goes down, those of you backing this clown will change their tune, end of story.
 
Close. I'm speaking from a first point of contact. In fact, I'm speaking from a whole lot of first person contacts. When the trial goes down, those of you backing this clown will change their tune, end of story.
Click to expand...

I certainly am not "backing" this guy. I am looking at the militarization of the police, their equipment, tactics and attitudes and fearing that this will continue and my house maybe next. They don't always get the right house you know.

There is a guy in Mississippi (I believe) who is on death row because the police got the wrong house, he thought it was a home invasion, fired, killed an officer and was charged, found guilty and sentenced to death.

What if that was you? Wouldn't you want "the people" to come to your rescue? Accuse the Government of wrong doing?
 
I can't judge on the right or wrong of the few seconds of the event.

What I can say is that we do not yet know what was in the mind of the shooter. I hope this is investigated thoroughly and the appropriate judgement is applied.

What is absolutely 1,000,000 percent clear is that there was no need to handle this particular raid in the manner used. You have shaky intel from an informer. You have a non-incriminating observation. You have no need to enter the residence because the evidence required is in a separate building. The whole scenario yells "Screw up by a gang of cowboys".

"Screw up by a gang of cowboys" leads to the possibility of a cover-up, it's been done before. I would want to know the result of the secret investigation since these should be public record. The very existence of a secret report makes my skin crawl. I would want to know where the single 223 cartridge case came from. Did the homeowner possess a 223? Does the 223 case match any weapon used in the raid? Did the officer wear a vest? Is a vest Dept policy? I would want the results of the autopsy report on the dead officer, including the bullet. I would want photos of the door showing the bullet hole(s) - they did take photos didn't they?

I am still wondering how a 380 bullet, notorious for its low power and penetrating ability, actually killed an officer - who should have been wearing a protective vest - after passing through a door. If the homeowner possessed a 223 why would he use a 380 for defense against a group?

Assuming that what has been reported so far is correct there was so much amateurism that if this case goes to a fair jury, with a decent defense attorney, I would guess this is going to end up as another minor charge and a hush-job.
 
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