Manual safetys on semi pistols - yes or no?

[Rexster]

My first handgun was a 1911, and I thoroughly learned its safety lever manipulation. I experimented with handguns with "active" safety levers that operate in a different manner, and decided to generally avoid them, to eliminate the chance of confusion during an emergency. Even if safety levers are not used as carry safety devices, and left off-safe, there is a chance that protruding levers can be knocked to the on-safe position.

I have made an exception with our Walther PP and PPK/S pistols, as the safety lever is really a glorified de-cocker, not something I use as a carry safety, and is quite small and very stiff, therefore unlikely to ever be accidentally knocked to the on-safe position.

I do not believe that my handguns "need" an active safety lever, so I have no problem with my SIG P229 DAK duty pistol, or the Glocks I usually carry concealed off the clock, even though I do use the 1911 thumb safety.

Some folks want an active safety device that must be deliberately disengaged, and I have no argument with that. We each choose how to save our own skin.

 

[Old Dog]

Somehow, I believe this thread might have remained fairly civil if not for one person's persistent insistence upon using his own ridiculous made-up and purposely obtuse term for something that has, lo these past one hundred years, been referred to as simply, "the safety."

And, you know, statements such as these:

The only good manually operated safety is the tip of the forefinger.

will be vociferously disagreed with by generations of handgunners.

I wonder why everyone seems so bent on creating controversy when there really should be none?

Have we, as a community, really devolved to such extent? Does anyone else really see how silly this "discussion" has become? Do some of you really believe that a manual safety has no place on a modern firearm? Or do you really believe that your chosen piece is the be-all, end-all and by gosh, you just aren't going to respect the choices of anyone else?

'Tis no wonder the anti-gun faction has no trouble whatsoever further dividing our community. Some of you should be truly embarrassed.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

Safety YES

While I trust my finger not to go on the trigger, there is that small percentage chance that my pistol may find itself within reach of someone who is not experienced with firearms. How? Squeezed out of my waist holster when bending over, dropped on floor in public bathroom, ejected from a vehicle in a car crash, left purse or fanny pack on kitchen counter, etc.

Non-gun owners tend to place their index finger right in the trigger guard when picking up a pistol. When taking a new shooter to the range I always have the safety on before handing them a pistol. I am so proud of my boys (12 and 14) who when finished shooting re-engage the safety without being told.

Then there is the chance of something getting in the trigger guard while holstering such as your shirt or loose change in a pocket holster. Or the edge of the leather holster itself buckling in and activating the trigger while re-holstering.

Two of my LEO friends carry off duty Glocks without a round in the chamber, except of course if going into a higher risk area late at night (parking garage, gas station, rest stop, etc.). My opinion is that it is easier to flip a safety with one thumb then having to rack a round in with two hands. What if your other hand is holding a child or pushing the bad guy away?

Well that is just my thinking aloud.

 

[Homerboy]

Safety on a semi? YES!

It is completely intuitive for a 3 year old child to pick up a gun and pull the trigger. Do we really want a device like a deadly weapon so easy to operate that a 3 year old child with no training could do it?

This forum (like all the other gun forums) is a LOADED with Chairborne Rangers with fantasies of multiple assailants being dispatched with ease. The truth of the matter is that 99.9999% of people who carry a weapon will never use it in a defensive scenario. But they keep reading SWAT magazine and they order their Molle gear for the zombie apocalypse. What nonsense.

The truth is that a safety has SAVED FAR more lives than it has taken. But don't tell that to a "my safety is my finger and what's between my ears
crowd, as if they have NEVER made a mistake in their lives! Funny how a safety-less gun is actually MARKETED to the inexperienced!

Anybody here actually get in their car and have to remember to step on the brake to shift out of park? Or have to look down at the gear shift when backing up to shift back into drive? Because we do those movements so many times, they are ingrained in our muscle memory. No different with a safety. Practice drawing and flicking off safety and it is automatic.

But who here can be bothered with actually practicing with the deadly weapon they carry?

I have left public ranges countless times due to the unsafe practices of the majority of shooters. Seems to me that the average gun owner in the country knows almost nothing about guns.

 

[cocojo]

Nick I can tell you this, if your two LEO friends are carrying their Glock's without a round in the chamber they were "ABSOLUTELY" not taught to carry that way by their PD or "ANY" PD for that matter. The officers would be subject to policy violations. I have been teaching firearms since 1978 to police officers and I can tell you no police department in the country would teach them to carry that way, EVER. As for safeties, I don't like them and would never use them, "ever". As I stated in my previous post they are too small on these smaller guns to be useful. Your better off with a 6 or 9lb trigger if you fear discharge. The only positive I can see for these tiny safeties is a gun grab and your pistol is taken from you in a fight by the perp, because they are not going to find it either, which gives you time to react. Police Departments used revolvers for years and I carried one for years and still do. They are quick and reliable and excellent for point shooting and I never saw a safety on one. I'm going to say everyone is free to carry whichever way they want in the civilian world but in the LE world they are not. The reason is the officer needs those split seconds of time to try and win the fight because we are always second to react in most cases. Those split seconds will cost you trying to find the safety and performing another step when you fine motor skills are toast. Those are some of the reasons why the 1911 style single action handguns are rare in the LE world. Your brain and your finger are your best bet for a safety on a firearm in the police world. You stated that your LEO friends only carry with a live round in chamber if they go to certain places. First I have never hear of that. Second they are taught to maintain their firearm the same way all the time for many reasons I just can't get into here. They don't sound like sworn officers to me but more like security guards.

 

[Homerboy]

Comparing a DA revolver to a striker fired semi is absolute garbage. Glocks ship with 5.5 pound triggers.

 

[jerkface11]

Two of my LEO friends carry off duty Glocks without a round in the chamber, except of course if going into a higher risk area late at night (parking garage, gas station, rest stop, etc.). My opinion is that it is easier to flip a safety with one thumb then having to rack a round in with two hands. What if your other hand is holding a child or pushing the bad guy away?

Isn't that what a holster is for?

 

[Pointshoot]

For me, theyre not a deal breaker to have one or not. I've been shooting 1911s for a long time and am used to that type of safety. Also have an HK with frame mounted 'down for fire' safety/decocker - I wouldn't mind having that type of safety on all my semi auto handguns. This provides just one more protective device in case someone were to grab your gun & try to use it on you. If I were looking at a new 40 or 45 I'd consider the M&P with manual thumb safety. That said, I also have Glocks and Sig pistols without such a safety and often carry revolvers that also lack a manual safety. What I don't like is 'up for fire' and slide mounted safeties.

 

[Mike1234567]

Unfortunately, no one can be told what a manual firing inhibitor is. You have to see it for yourself.

This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue thumb safety - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red manual firing inhibitor - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.

 

[Mike1234567]

Safety YES <snip>

My opinion is that it is easier to flip a safety with one thumb then having to rack a round in with two hands. What if your other hand is holding a child or pushing the bad guy away? <snip>.

My thoughts precisely.

 

[Mike1234567]

<snip> As I stated in my previous post they are too small on these smaller guns to be useful. <snip>

The thumb safety on my LC9 was extremely intuitive and well designed. The lever was well-placed and a quick swipe... off safety. It was much easier to disengage than to accidentally engage. I'm definitely going to buy another LC9 soon... but I'll deactivate the mag safety.

 

[TestPilot]

I will deal with multiple people in one response here.

"While I trust my finger not to go on the trigger, there is that small percentage chance that my pistol may find itself within reach of someone who is not experienced with firearms. How? Squeezed out of my waist holster when bending over, dropped on floor in public bathroom, ejected from a vehicle in a car crash, left purse or fanny pack on kitchen counter, etc."

"It is completely intuitive for a 3 year old child to pick up a gun and pull the trigger. Do we really want a device like a deadly weapon so easy to operate that a 3 year old child with no training could do it?"

These are gun retention and access issues which are controlled by hosters and access control. If you willfully let a person ignorant of guns handle your loaded gun, unsupervised, then you are negligent. It does not matter if your gun has a manual firing inhibitor thumb switch or not.

If I used a reasonably secure holster, and my gun popped out because of an event like a car accident, whoever ignorant of guns picking that up and firing it is the fault of that person who picked it up and did something negligent with it. If your choice happens to prevent accident with ignorant people who is not supposed to have your gun doing ignorant things with it, great. But, that should not be pushed as a priority in one's gun choice. Guns for security use should have combat effectiveness as top priority.

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"Two of my LEO friends carry off duty Glocks without a round in the chamber, except of course if going into a higher risk area late at night (parking garage, gas station, rest stop, etc.)."

Obviously not the best two examples of people to learn from.

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"My opinion is that it is easier to flip a safety with one thumb then having to rack a round in with two hands. What if your other hand is holding a child or pushing the bad guy away?"

Not a problem if you carry with a round chambered.

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"But don't tell that to a "my safety is my finger and what's between my ears crowd, as if they have NEVER made a mistake in their lives!"

They are not saying they never made a mistake in their lives. Actually it is the people on the opposite side who are saying they can never make a mistake with the manipulation of the manual firing inhibitor thumb lever while at the same time mistakes galore with trigger manipulation which is a paradox.

 

[Mike1234567]

I think I can end this entire discussion with this: I'm always right and everyone, who doesn't agree with me, is always wrong. My opinion and experience is all that counts. The experiences and opinions of those who don't agree with me count for nothing and I'll argue forever to try and convince everyone on the planet that I'm right... I'm always right.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Somehow, I believe this thread might have remained fairly civil if not for one person's persistent insistence upon using his own ridiculous made-up and purposely obtuse term for something that has, lo these past one hundred years, been referred to as simply, "the safety."

Actually it would be more civil if certain posters would take less delight in taunting someone challenging orthodox terminology and focus on analysis of the validity of orthodox beliefs versus the challenge to them. Everyone should remember that often what is now orthodox was once thought radical.


And, you know, statements such as these:


will be vociferously disagreed with by generations of handgunners.

I wonder why everyone seems so bent on creating controversy when there really should be none?

Only if your meaning of “creating controversy” is to get people thinking, questioning, and analyzing the validity of orthodox beliefs. I know you are old enough Old Dog to remember when almost nobody questioned the validity of the statement “Double-action semiautomatics are an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem”.

Have we, as a community, really devolved to such extent? Does anyone else really see how silly this "discussion" has become? Do some of you really believe that a manual safety has no place on a modern firearm? Or do you really believe that your chosen piece is the be-all, end-all and by gosh, you just aren't going to respect the choices of anyone else?

Well, if some people had not spent so much time insulting Testpilot’s terminology he might have been more compromising in discussing the issue and some of what you think silly would be eliminated. He was backed into a corner and you ought to at least give him credit for showing some guts to stand up to the bullying.


I do not “believe that a manual safety has no place on a modern firearm”. This is the forum for discussing “Handguns: Autoloaders” and the topic of this thread is “Manual Safetys (sic) on semi pistols - yes or no?”. My comments on safeties refer to the thread topic. I am not agreeing with anyone that they have no benefit for rifles and shotguns. My comments have nothing to do with respect or disrespect of anyone’s choices.


'Tis no wonder the anti-gun faction has no trouble whatsoever further dividing our community. Some of you should be truly embarrassed.

I think you are underestimating the basic solidarity of our community and being a bit cranky.

See comments above in underlined italic.

I don't think manual safeties are a necessary design characteristic for modern semi-automatic pistol designs. I do not consider the 1911 to be a modern design or any other pistol lacking safety features comparable to the Glock and S&W M&P.

 

[45_auto]

I don't think manual safeties are a necessary design characteristic for modern semi-automatic pistol designs.

A safety on a modern semi-automatic pistol is no more necessary than a safety on a rifle, shotgun, nuclear weapon launch button, or any other device that can potentially unleash deadly force by the accidental press of a small lever.

Just like brakes are really not necessary on a car. There's plenty of trees, buildings, pedestrians, other cars, etc, out there that will slow you down or stop you when you hit them. It just takes a little more skill to drive without them.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Safety YES

While I trust my finger not to go on the trigger, there is that small percentage chance that my pistol may find itself within reach of someone who is not experienced with firearms. How? Squeezed out of my waist holster when bending over, dropped on floor in public bathroom, ejected from a vehicle in a car crash, left purse or fanny pack on kitchen counter, etc.

The mind set of relying on a manual safety for the “small percentage chance” of the potential situations you list tends to reduce focus on ensuring they don’t happen. Since I converted from the 1911 over 20 years ago (no small conversion for a National Match Armor) my focus on keeping my finger off the trigger, holstering, and retention is much more intense.

Non-gun owners tend to place their index finger right in the trigger guard when picking up a pistol. When taking a new shooter to the range I always have the safety on before handing them a pistol. I am so proud of my boys (12 and 14) who when finished shooting re-engage the safety without being told.

I agree about “Non-gun owners” and unfortunately see too many gun owners who are just experienced enough to be arrogant doing the same thing because “the safety is on”. You should be proud of yourself as a parent as well as with your boys.

Then there is the chance of something getting in the trigger guard while holstering such as your shirt or loose change in a pocket holster. Or the edge of the leather holster itself buckling in and activating the trigger while re-holstering.

Regardless of the condition of the pistol, there is no excuse for inattentive holstering. You should never put a pistol in a pocket that contains anything else.

Two of my LEO friends carry off duty Glocks without a round in the chamber, except of course if going into a higher risk area late at night (parking garage, gas station, rest stop, etc.). My opinion is that it is easier to flip a safety with one thumb then having to rack a round in with two hands. What if your other hand is holding a child or pushing the bad guy away?

Your two LEO friends really need to stop doing this before it gets them killed!

Well that is just my thinking aloud.

Be careful doing any "thinking aloud". It has historically gotten more people in trouble than guns.

 

[Nom de Forum]

A safety on a modern semi-automatic pistol is no more necessary than a safety on a rifle, shotgun, nuclear weapon launch button, or any other device that can potentially unleash deadly force by the accidental press of a small lever.

Just like brakes are really not necessary on a car. There's plenty of trees, buildings, pedestrians, other cars, etc, out there that will slow you down or stop you when you hit them. It just takes a little more skill to drive without them.

These are the type of comments "Old Dog" is concerned about and you should be embarrassed for making.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Safety on a semi? YES!

It is completely intuitive for a 3 year old child to pick up a gun and pull the trigger. Do we really want a device like a deadly weapon so easy to operate that a 3 year old child with no training could do it?

The short answer is a conditional “Yes”. Making it easier to enable 3 year-olds is not one of the conditions.


This forum (like all the other gun forums) is a LOADED with Chairborne Rangers with fantasies of multiple assailants being dispatched with ease. The truth of the matter is that 99.9999% of people who carry a weapon will never use it in a defensive scenario. But they keep reading SWAT magazine and they order their Molle gear for the zombie apocalypse. What nonsense.

Yup, they all have “Chairborne Ranger” types, but there are many people (some I frequently disagree with) who make it worth sorting the chaff from the wheat.

The truth is that a safety has SAVED FAR more lives than it has taken. But don't tell that to a "my safety is my finger and what's between my ears
crowd, as if they have NEVER made a mistake in their lives! Funny how a safety-less gun is actually MARKETED to the inexperienced!

The truth is that more people have been killed by negligent discharges of semiautomatics with manual safeties than without.

Anybody here actually get in their car and have to remember to step on the brake to shift out of park? Or have to look down at the gear shift when backing up to shift back into drive? Because we do those movements so many times, they are ingrained in our muscle memory. No different with a safety. Practice drawing and flicking off safety and it is automatic.

Really, you have never forgotten to put your foot on the brake before shifting out of park? It happens all the time and is why new cars force you to put your foot on the brake. Really, you have never missed a shift? People also frequently mistake the accelerator for the brake and vice-versa. Practice does not make you perfectly automatic. In fact the more actions you have to practice for proficiency make it easier to make an error.


But who here can be bothered with actually practicing with the deadly weapon they carry?

I have left public ranges countless times due to the unsafe practices of the majority of shooters. Seems to me that the average gun owner in the country knows almost nothing about guns.

Agreed, “the average gun owner in the country knows almost nothing about guns”.

Comments above in underlined italics.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Comparing a DA revolver to a striker fired semi is absolute garbage. Glocks ship with 5.5 pound triggers.

Long ago, in a galaxy not so far, far away......

99% of Police once carried DA revolvers and N.D.s from triggers getting pulled never happened.

Actually, they happened frequently.

Yes, you can compare the two. They both make you focus more on keeping your finger off the trigger to prevent N.D.s. Something that a semiautomatic having a manual safety does not do as well. Nobody with a Glock or DA Revolver makes the excuse, "I thought the safety was on".

 

[45_auto]

I don't think manual safeties are a necessary design characteristic for modern semi-automatic pistol designs.

Ok, let's try it a different way.

Why don't you think a manual safety is necessary on a modern semi-automatic pistol design with a light single-action trigger?

 

[cocojo]

Mike why is one safety good and another bad. You remove the magazine safety and someone gets hurt, Ruger will not be responsible for their pistol you altered it from the way it was purchased and designed by them. Mike your comment that the thumb safety is extremely intuitive, well so is the magazine safety. Just pop the magazine in and out, don't see a problem. This is a prime example of why people argue about these things. Some like the thumb safety others hate them, some like the magazine safety others hate them. Gun makers are making decisions on what others want and if they throw in all kinds of crap something will stick to the wall. Why is it ok to put a LCP out with no mag or thumb safety and then go way overboard with the LC9 with both? That's why we buy different homes, cars and so on. My choice would be the LCP for reasons stated above. You prefer the thumb safety and want to remove the mag safety. I wouldn't remove either but then I wouldn't purchase this gun. I dislike both and rather than take a liability on which places an issue with me, I refuse to purchase this type of gun. I am not letting the gun manufacturer off the liability hook that easy. It's your pistol and do as you wish but I would leave the mag safety in.

 

[Nom de Forum]

The thumb safety on my LC9 was extremely intuitive and well designed. The lever was well-placed and a quick swipe... off safety. It was much easier to disengage than to accidentally engage. I'm definitely going to buy another LC9 soon... but I'll deactivate the mag safety.

Why would you want to "deactivate the mag safety"?

 

[45_auto]

Why would you want to "deactivate the mag safety"?

So you can fire the pistol without a magazine installed.

 

[jerkface11]

What single action doesn't have a manual safety?

 

[45_auto]

As far as I know, no one is stupid enough to market a single-action semi-automatic without a manual safety.

But apparently non de forum thinks that a manual safety isn't needed on a modern-design single action. Maybe he thinks people are a lot smarter than they were 102 years ago?

I'm hoping he'll tell us why.

I don't think manual safeties are a necessary design characteristic for modern semi-automatic pistol designs.