Manual Safety-Yes or No

[556A2]

Alright I'll stay out of the debate and I'll just answer the ? I personally don't like safeties, but I have my CZ C&L. I prefer C&L because if I go to the range to shoot, unless if I drop the hammer manually I'm getting NO DA practice. So thats why I just train myself to flick the safety while drawing my gun to align the sights. I like this on SA and DA/SA guns. But I don't have a problem with Glocks, Steyrs, and Walthers etc. I would feel fine about carrying one of those, since I believe the only reason it would go off if you were practicing bad firearm handleing.

 

[Graystar]

Consider the time factor. Deactivating the manual safety on a SA gun does not take extra time, because the action is done concurrent with the draw

If the person remembers. As you said, stress magnifies shooter limitations, and also causes them to make mistakes they wouldn't normally make, such as forgetting to turn off the safety.

 

[Logistar]

I was GREAT at getting the safety off until I went out into a field, set up some targets and REALLY tried to draw and fire QUICKLY and under PRESSURE.

The good news! I was consistent at hitting the (defensive range) target about 3 out of 4 times.

The bad news. The reason I didn't hit the target 4 out of 4 times wasn't my aim... it was the fact that I did not ALWAYS get the safety off. About 1 in 4 times I didn't get a clean "swipe" and the safety was still on.

Even though I practiced it at home and at the range I can't do it reliably under (my own imposed) stress. I am not waiting to find out how I do under REAL stress. Safety off. (Or no safety)

Logistar

 

[rebbryan]

Yep.

I like a manual safety more for the reason of a kid accidentally getting a hold of one of my guns. Shouldn't ever happen, hasn't ever happened to me, but anyone can be careless at some point. And any 3 year old knows how to pull a trigger.

happened here when a county officer went home after a gun safety class, put his belt on the table, and while talkin to his wife his 3 year old pulled out his sig and shot him and killed him.

 

[benEzra]

I say yes. Not for carry, primarily, but for added safety when loading/unloading, administrative handling, holstering, etc.

I carry a 3913LS (DA/SA) with a round in the chamber and safety off when holstered, so forgetting to flick it off in a self-defense situation is moot. However, having the safety allows you to stick it in your waistband in a pinch. If you are a LEO, it can also be helpful to be able to put your holstered weapon on safe if you are going into a situation where a disarm attempt is more likely than an initial armed confrontation.

Most shooters will admit to shooting a gun with a short, relatively light trigger better than one with a long, relatively heavy trigger. Heck, if you watch most people with DA/SA guns, they don't even practice with them in double-action mode, especially when they want to show off how good they are.

Only when shooting at 100-yd targets. At practical self-defense ranges, I haven't seen any difference at all between DA and SA, but I have to say my 3913LS does have a very smooth DA trigger.

 

[BevrFevr]

Handy,

Partner, I wasn't quoting you at all. I did use one of the same words you used though. You do get credit for getting me to thinking about it though. I think my points still hold water, even with a "broken hand".

I wonder what they did in the days of yor when they had to cock the weapons first(yikes)? Must have required a hell of a lot more dexterity than the members of this forum seem to possess.

On a side note there sure seem to be alot of quick draw artists here. It's fine if that's what people want to do. Barney Fife loved it. I wonder what would have happend if he had a glock?

The fact is though that being involved in a self defense shooting is remote. Being in a self defence shooting where a quick draw was THE deciding factor is EXCEEDINGLY rare(even for police). I wish more people would practice safe driving, that would really make a difference in all of our daily lives.

By all means though knock yourselves out! Any practice is better than no practice.

-bevr

 

[M1911]

These days, I mostly carry a 1911. But I've carried Glocks, Kahrs and a S&W revolver as well. Safety or no doesn't really matter to me -- either will work. It's just a matter of training.

 

[Handy]

Andrew Wyatt,

This is off topic, but I'll answer your question.

A 1911A1 has 53 parts. A Sig 220 has 49. The CZ is similar to the Sig. The 1911 seems simpler because it is easier to disassemble (different pins), but is in many way more complicated AND fragile, like in the construction of the disconnector. If you think that unfair, consider how many pistols you've heard of going full auto that WEREN'T 1911s?

If you really want the fewest MOVING parts, I recommend striker fired blowback pistols.

Nothing wrong with the 1911, but I don't see how it particularly makes for a KISS example, with a bunch of parts and two external safeties to deactivate for firing.

 

[1911Tuner]

Manual Safety

One of Browning's earlier prototypes that he submitted for
evaluation didn't have one. He felt that the trigger blocking
action of the grip safety was sufficient, but the Army saw it
differently...so the thumb safety was born.

The real safety is you, and relying on a mechanical device
to keep you out of trouble isn't wise. The safety doesn't
bother me. I've reached for it so many countless times,
that I find myself going through the motion if I pick up a
turnip.

In the event that I find my right hand disabled or compromised,
I would feel about as comfortable leaving it off and carrying
cocked and un-locked as an expedient means of getting home,
and completely at ease if the pistol is a Series 80 Colt.
The main thing is to keep your finger off the trigger until you
are morally and legally prepared for the gun to fire.

Just my nickel's worth,
Tuner

 

[Handy]

Tuner,

In the event that I find my right hand disabled or compromised...

What do you do if the hand gets hurt BEFORE you are able to deactivate the safety?

 

[Logistar]

My sister (who is about to start carrying as soon as she gets her CCW) says that she wants to keep a safety ON at all times with her carry gun.

Her reasoning is that "If someone takes the gun away from me then they can't shoot me." - presumably because they can't find the safety.

I advocate carrying with the safety off (or not having a manual safety). Any comments??? (Hope this isn't OT)

Logistar

 

[BevrFevr]

Handy you crack me up

How hurt is it? baddda Boom!

If your hand is sooo hurt that you can't flip off a safety will you even be able to hold a pistol? Are are you talkin about a hand that is just hurt enough so that you can't turn off the safety but not too hurt to fire the gun?

That's a pretty neat little window to be operating in.

I don't think your premise of having a hurt hand is enough to justify having a safety or not having a safety. What if you just happen to lose all but your thumb and pinky. Should we have voice activated triggers as back up? Or maybe all of your fingers are gone but one and you just lost an eye and your lumbago is acting up as well as a wicked rash and and ingrown toenail.

All meant in humor buddy!

-bevr

 

[Boats]

Speaking as someone who finds his right a poor substitute for his left hand, I gotta laugh at the direction this thread has taken.

Some pistols with manual safeties have them on both sides, (1911 ambi, Beretta duty caliber pistols, CZ-85, Rugers, Smiths, some BHPs, on and on)--issue of the injured strong hand is moot if one practices off hand as I do.

Some pistols with manual safeties only feature them on the left side, (1911 stock, CZ-75, classic BHP, most mouseguns.) As I learned on the stock 1911s in the Navy, a southpaw grips the pistol with the four fingers, swings his thumb over the hammer and disengages the safety. The safety can also be "rubbed off" on something handy (no pun intended).

"What if the right hand is injured before needing to draw?" I have to ask how many people practice drawing from their strong-side concealment holster with their off hands? That must be a comically contorted drill, manual safety present or not.

 

[Handy]

Bevr,

That is all true. The safety issue (at least for me) comes down to which is more important:

An accurate first shot (C&L)
OR
A reliable first shot (safetyless DA)


This is all angels dancing on the head of a pin. But if we're going to debate it, we have to get into the weeds.

Really, the best reason to use a manual safety is because that is what you're used to on the gun you are most comfortable with. But a newer shooter has the luxury to pick whatever gun, and a thread like this airs all the reasons for A or B.

A little debate doesn't hurt, and occasionally changes minds.


Boats,

If you aren't too fat, drawing across the back from a 4:00 holster position isn't hard. Same with cavalry draw on a crossdraw. But several holster types/positions do make it hard, and SHOULD be a consideration.

 

[Dorrin79]

I prefer guns without for carry purposes.

For a range gun, I don't think it matters at all.

One of the things I really like about my P-11 is the complete absence of external controls to snag on clothing, or forget to manipulate in the heat of the moment.

 

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's All-

Sense SIG-Sauer's "Classic" P-series has three passive
saftey's; I tend to favor the decocking system!

Never had a problem with it~

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

 

[dan_s]

A manual safety in a modern firearm is little more than a security blanket for those who can't remember to leave their finger outside of the trigget guard ?

 

[Correia]

Man this thread is funny!

Ok, if you have trouble remembering to take off your safety under stress then that isn't the gun for you. If you choose a gun with a safety you should train with it until you are perfectly comfortable with manipulating it under all conditions.

I always laugh at the idea that some folks have that we are going to be too stupid to deactivate a thumb safety under pressure. I have managed to deactivate the tiny little button on my 870 thousands of times fast enough to hit a flushed bird. I can draw my 1911 and deactivate the safety every single time it comes out of my holster in a match, on the clock, under pressure, with lots of people looking at me.

If you are not practiced enough to manipulate your safety under stress, then I'm pretty damn sure that you aren't practiced enough to make good hits on a target under stress either.

 

[Handy]

Congratulations Moderator Correia, you have just called Logistar stupid.

Him

Even though I practiced it at home and at the range I can't do it reliably under (my own imposed) stress.

You

I always laugh at the idea that some folks have that we are going to be too stupid to deactivate a thumb safety under pressure.

 

[Correia]

No Handy, I didn't call anybody anything. Read my first paragraph. I happen to like Logistar.

Trying to bait me? And my first name isn't Moderator. It is Larry.

So did John Browning beat up your Grandpa or something? You seem to have a bit of a grudge.

 

[sm]

I said at the beginning...this thread will get good, quick.

Oh ,I use and prefer the 1911 btw. For those that don't know ,I shot my first in 1961...I was 6 y/o.

I find myself snicking off the "nonexistent" safety on a Revolver. I have one and only DAO, I 'snick the safety off it too...something must be ingrained somewhere.

I do not use ambi's, I learned to manipulate the 1911 weak-handed without ambis, same with mag release mine are stock too.

I do the same thing with shotguns, I prefer a certain MOA and I assure I can snick and get on bird or target in plenty of time.

I know where my trigger finger belongs...you see , though I didn't own one set up as such, I can SAFELY shoot a shotgun without a safety ( removed for competition) .

Practice and training , bottom line.
Heck, I bet many here on the board can drive a manual trannie, drink coffee and /or smoke at the same time...betcha.

The Key:
Gun fit to shooter in a platform with reliable ammo , in said gun, allowing shooter quick accurate shots, in an effective caiber. Once this is determined , practice, dry-fire - training.

Ala Dan with DA/SA 220, Irwin with a model 19, pax with a glock 26...don't matter to me, I ain't shooting the gun --they are--and thats what's matters...IMO

You will never see me critique what another shoots...and d**n well to boot.

 

[Handy]

Hey Larry,

No, just thought it was funny. (Bait is for fishing.) There's two groups:

Those who don't trust the safety because it HAS been missed or stuck, etc.
Those who think it's ridiculous to claim that you might not get the safety off.
I think the experience of failing is more compelling than the experience of not yet failing, but that's another unpopular opinion.

As far as my "JMB Grudge" goes, that's a popular accusation. Welcome to the bandwagon.

 

[1911Tuner]

The Full Auto Experience

A quote:

If you think that unfair, consider how many pistols you've heard of going full auto that WEREN'T 1911s?

Never saw one do it that wasn't worn slap out or that
some aspiring kitchen table smith hadn't been dinking around
with sear angles and hammer hooks, light mainsprings and
the like. I spend about half my bench time addressing
hammer follow issues on "Match trigger" jobs...some from
skilled smiths.

The thing was never meant to have a trigger like that.
rather than risk a flame war, I'll wait until I'm asked.
It's not a surgeon's scalpel...it's a broadhead ax. An understanding of the pistol can clear up some misconceptions.

Go ahead...ask. I love questions.
Tuner

To answer your original question...Several that were factory
stock...and about half of them do it when the decocker is
used. Exciting stuff, but it does tend to frighten the spectators.

 

[Handy]

Well, as Kuhnhausen points out, the trigger components of the 1911 contain two "weak" points; the disconnector and the sear or sear spring. Failing to disconnect and sear bounce are seperate problems, but I've seen or experienced both on multiple occasions. No big deal, the 1911 sear and disconnector are two reasons the trigger can be made so nice.

I brought that up just to challenge the assertion that other guns, like the Sig that puts the disconnector on the trigger bar, have overly complicated internals. They really don't, and would be in extremis to end up with "sear bounce" or a disconnector failure. There are other ways to go full auto, but most guns do not do it from the fire control as much as stuck firing pins.

That's all, just a little compare and contrast.

 

[1911Tuner]

Kunhausen

Jerry has a good bit of knowledge of the 1911, and is a respected
authority, but there are a few places that he falls flat. Keep
in mind that he plays with sear angles and hammer hooks, too.
He's trying to outsmart John Moses, just like the others...
trying to make the gun into something that it isn't.

The sear and disconnect are potential trouble spots...when they
are modified, and especially when spring rates are taken very
far from the original format. John Browning knew more about
the issue than any expert alive or dead, and careful thought was given to all the weak areas involved. He was known for his
tendency to over-engineer certain areas of the gun.

Hammer and sear bounce was addressed by making the hooks longer than necessary for static engagement. JMB
knew that they bounced. The 23 pound mainspring that
so many trigger men tell you to toss for a 17# spring because the
23 pound spring is far heavier than it needs to be for ignition, but it resists inertia and keeps the hooks and sear engaged to a higher degree. That heavy spring was put there for a very good reason, and the rating had little to do with making the gun go bang. It will do that with a 13 pound spring.

The left leg of the sear spring is routinely attacked for less
tension on the sear in order to take a few ounces off resistance
to pulling the trigger...but that is negating part of the resistance
to the same bounce that makes hammers follow and 1911's go
full-auto. Ask me how I know.

Polishing the top of the disconnect can bring on troubles too...as
can a too-short disconnect that works fine until it wears a little.
A slightly shorter than spec disconnect can enhance trigger pull, but at what cost?

Finally, the practice of cutting the hammer hooks perfectly square enhances trigger pull, but the positive rake on the hooks tends to pull the sear back to the bottom of the hooks when the
main and sear spring get tired and the hammer tries to get out
of engagement.

Engineering rule one:
Anytime something is changed, three other things must be
changed to compensate.

Not picking a fight, just stating some truths.

Take care, and shoot straight!
T