Manual Safety-Yes or No
- Thread starter Caseless
- Start date
- Status
H
Handy
Guest
No.
A defense gun needs to be safe, but it also needs to be fireable under great duress. A safety is a possible hinderance to defending your life, and a more serious one than a 12 lbs. trigger.
A manual safety is not 'KISS'.
A defense gun needs to be safe, but it also needs to be fireable under great duress. A safety is a possible hinderance to defending your life, and a more serious one than a 12 lbs. trigger.
A manual safety is not 'KISS'.
Penforhire
Member
How about "not a factor" as an answer? You should train with your SD weapon(s) until their manual or arms is automatic. If that means flipping a safety then fine, okay.
A safety is just one of several systems on a weapon that all have to function properly to launch a projectile. Ever look inside the trigger safety systems of Glocks and the like (Walther P99 too)? That's an ugly mechanical mess but it serves a purpose.
Advocates of safeties may cite the advantage in case the weapon is taken from you in a struggle (most BG's will NOT automatically flip off your safety before trying to zap you). Or how the fixed safety is a requirement to safely carry 1911-style SA triggers cocked and locked.
My current SD gun of choice (P99) has no separate safety. My last one (series 70 1911) did. Answer to your question: not a factor.
A safety is just one of several systems on a weapon that all have to function properly to launch a projectile. Ever look inside the trigger safety systems of Glocks and the like (Walther P99 too)? That's an ugly mechanical mess but it serves a purpose.
Advocates of safeties may cite the advantage in case the weapon is taken from you in a struggle (most BG's will NOT automatically flip off your safety before trying to zap you). Or how the fixed safety is a requirement to safely carry 1911-style SA triggers cocked and locked.
My current SD gun of choice (P99) has no separate safety. My last one (series 70 1911) did. Answer to your question: not a factor.
I agree with Handy, I don't want to have to think about anything other than pulling the trigger if I am attacked. I would also add that I am not fond of DA/SA guns for defensive purposes; I don't want the additional operation of lowering a hammer following a gun fight. I have never been involved in a gun fight but I am certain that in the event I ever was I would be quite shaken up afterwards and the less I have to remember to make the gun safe the better. I realize that this doesn't hold true for everyone, I can only assume my own reactions, therefore all of my defensive guns are either DA revolvers or DAO pistols. I leave my DA/SA and SA pistols for recreational shooting. Mike
sm
member
This is going to get good.
jwrussell
Member
I am as well going with no about the manual safety. Like the previous post's have said, I dont want to have to remeber to take the safety off when so many other things are going through my head in a situation where my weapon is pointed at someone. My Ruger has a simple decocker that I absolutely love. This is my duty weapon and by pressing it, it returns the hammer from single action to double action. All I have to do is pull...........
Smoke
Member
Allright, just to keep it interesting.....
I'm going with a "Yes" because I only shoot 1911 style guns.
Its the platform I've chose for defense and any other occasion to need a handgun.
I train with it exclusively. Thumbing the safety off is as natural as raising the sights to my eye. Its to the point of being reflexive.
Losing your gun in a struggle is an issue and perhaps a manual safety might be an asset here, but not by much. If I have my gun out and pointed at someone you can bet the safety is already off! If I lose my gun at this point in a struggle well.,....
I like a manual safety more for the reason of a kid accidentally getting a hold of one of my guns. Shouldn't ever happen, hasn't ever happened to me, but anyone can be careless at some point. And any 3 year old knows how to pull a trigger.
If you train with one platform everything becomes natural. If you switch out platforms regularly when the chips are down you might have to stop and think "What gun am I holding?" even if only for a split second.
I think knowing your weapon is more important than whether it has a safety or not.
I'm going with a "Yes" because I only shoot 1911 style guns.
Its the platform I've chose for defense and any other occasion to need a handgun.
I train with it exclusively. Thumbing the safety off is as natural as raising the sights to my eye. Its to the point of being reflexive.
Losing your gun in a struggle is an issue and perhaps a manual safety might be an asset here, but not by much. If I have my gun out and pointed at someone you can bet the safety is already off! If I lose my gun at this point in a struggle well.,....
I like a manual safety more for the reason of a kid accidentally getting a hold of one of my guns. Shouldn't ever happen, hasn't ever happened to me, but anyone can be careless at some point. And any 3 year old knows how to pull a trigger.
If you train with one platform everything becomes natural. If you switch out platforms regularly when the chips are down you might have to stop and think "What gun am I holding?" even if only for a split second.
I think knowing your weapon is more important than whether it has a safety or not.
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
I'll vote No .... even tho I do feel well comfortable with an HP safety ... it is well positioned and with familiarity no sweat to ease of as gun comes up. I just happen not to use it as a first choice daily carry - just sometimes when i want something slimmer
However .. personally I favor my Rugers .... I am in the D/A - S/A camp .... and happen also to like the decocker. So much on this subject is down to what you like and what works .. for you. I love 1911's but it is too late in my life to want to switch to one for carry ...... even tho so many do. My P97, that now has pretty much taken over from P95 (ergonomically, identical), is ideal - for me .... and despite the relative effort of first shot D/A ... allows me a very useful, accurate, fast and reliable platform.
However .. personally I favor my Rugers .... I am in the D/A - S/A camp .... and happen also to like the decocker. So much on this subject is down to what you like and what works .. for you. I love 1911's but it is too late in my life to want to switch to one for carry ...... even tho so many do. My P97, that now has pretty much taken over from P95 (ergonomically, identical), is ideal - for me .... and despite the relative effort of first shot D/A ... allows me a very useful, accurate, fast and reliable platform.
H
Handy
Guest
I should have said in my first post that my manual safety issue is not about failing to remember. I think that can be addressed with training (though it still happens, anyway).
Mainly, I think a manual thumb safety increases the amount of dexterity necessary to fire, and you may not have it. A bad grip from the draw, a wound to the hand, the safety blocked by the BG, the off hand and a single sided safety, etc. Add to that the chance of a rushed attempt to off-safe and fire binding the trigger and safety, losing time.
I firmly believe that a realistic CCW shooting will likely take place at knife range. The gun must fire, regardless of grip. You can cut off a thumb and 3 fingers and still reliably fire a DA gun, either hand.
Mainly, I think a manual thumb safety increases the amount of dexterity necessary to fire, and you may not have it. A bad grip from the draw, a wound to the hand, the safety blocked by the BG, the off hand and a single sided safety, etc. Add to that the chance of a rushed attempt to off-safe and fire binding the trigger and safety, losing time.
I firmly believe that a realistic CCW shooting will likely take place at knife range. The gun must fire, regardless of grip. You can cut off a thumb and 3 fingers and still reliably fire a DA gun, either hand.
Depends on the gun. Depends on the shooter.
1911 - SA, lightish and short trigger pull ... Manual safety sounds great to me.
Revolver - DA, heavyish and long trigger pull ... Manual safety unnecessary.
Casual shooter, or shooter with small hands using a pistol with difficult to access manual safety? Manual safety might be a bad idea.
Well-trained individual with lots of practice with his/her platform? Their call.
1911 - SA, lightish and short trigger pull ... Manual safety sounds great to me.
Revolver - DA, heavyish and long trigger pull ... Manual safety unnecessary.
Casual shooter, or shooter with small hands using a pistol with difficult to access manual safety? Manual safety might be a bad idea.
Well-trained individual with lots of practice with his/her platform? Their call.
BevrFevr
Member
If you don't have the dexterity...
to flip a safety off then you have no business pulling a trigger cause god only knows where the bullet is gonna go. Barney Fife comes to mind.
Depending on the gun I don't think you are safer with or without a safety. Guys without safeties shoot themselves and others daily. Guys with safeties shoot themselves and others daily.
-bevr
to flip a safety off then you have no business pulling a trigger cause god only knows where the bullet is gonna go. Barney Fife comes to mind.
Depending on the gun I don't think you are safer with or without a safety. Guys without safeties shoot themselves and others daily. Guys with safeties shoot themselves and others daily.
-bevr
H
Handy
Guest
Bevr,
You're misquoting me. Obviously, you don't go to the range with a broken hand. But you don't have that kind of option during the fight.
You're misquoting me. Obviously, you don't go to the range with a broken hand. But you don't have that kind of option during the fight.
I'll vote yes, but I also shoot a 1911 so that may not be an objective vote.
Clearly, any gun is safer with a manual safety. Bad things can happen during a "brain fade". They shouldn't happen, but it's human nature.
The big question, and I don't know the answer, is whether you "remove" the safety when you need it.
Police departments obviously feel they are not required, while the military insists on them. They have them on their rifles, why wouldn't they have them on their handguns?
I shoot with my thumb on the safety which eliminates the 'forgetting' part... on a 1911 anyway. But if my thumb was no longer functional, that would be a problem.
That doesn't mean I am against carrying a gun without a safety, it's just not as safe. The chances of me shooting a handgun in self defense might rival the odds of winning a lottery.
Clearly, any gun is safer with a manual safety. Bad things can happen during a "brain fade". They shouldn't happen, but it's human nature.
The big question, and I don't know the answer, is whether you "remove" the safety when you need it.
Police departments obviously feel they are not required, while the military insists on them. They have them on their rifles, why wouldn't they have them on their handguns?
I shoot with my thumb on the safety which eliminates the 'forgetting' part... on a 1911 anyway. But if my thumb was no longer functional, that would be a problem.
That doesn't mean I am against carrying a gun without a safety, it's just not as safe. The chances of me shooting a handgun in self defense might rival the odds of winning a lottery.
H
Handy
Guest
This isn't true:
But this is definetly true
M11?
But this is definetly true
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
45 auto ..... not so sure of the ''clearly''
having a manual safety is one thing .. correct use thereof is another! if we assume total competence with such then it's pretty damn good I'll agree.I do tho defend my carry choice .. however ugly and chunky it is ... P95DC or P97DC . IMO these are inherently very safe indeed ..... and, I'd not expect anyway less safe than those guns with a manual. Even with round chambered (as usual) there is little chance of much happening ''accidentally'' with the D/A trigger poundage!!
Not trying to be pedantic ... just ''defending my corner''!
Andrew Wyatt
Member
as for the KISS principle, take a look at the innards of a CZ or a sig sometime and compare them to a 1911.
H
Handy
Guest
Andrew,
The KISS principle can be applied to many things, in this case we were talking ergonomics.
If you want to look at KISS from a mechanical point of view, learn to love the Glock, or better yet, the VP70. If you want to compare the 1911 and CZ, I suggest you start by comparing the 1911 barrel/link/bushing/slide with the CZ barrel/slide. Which one is simpler?
The KISS principle can be applied to many things, in this case we were talking ergonomics.
If you want to look at KISS from a mechanical point of view, learn to love the Glock, or better yet, the VP70. If you want to compare the 1911 and CZ, I suggest you start by comparing the 1911 barrel/link/bushing/slide with the CZ barrel/slide. Which one is simpler?
Graystar
Member
What does "safer" mean? A gun is dangerous and needs to be treated with respect at all times. I think manual safeties just give a false sense of security that leads to trouble.
GoldenLoki
Member
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2002
- Messages
- 101
Non issue.
Just know how to use the gun you use.
GL
Just know how to use the gun you use.
GL
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 4,925
Playing a bit of devil's advocate...
1. Shooting in self defense is, first and foremost, about hitting. You might call this Rule Zero; without the hit, the gun is nothing. Accordingly, one could argue from first principles that anything that detracts from the hit is contrary to the spirit of the thing in and of itself.
2. Most shooters will admit to shooting a gun with a short, relatively light trigger better than one with a long, relatively heavy trigger. Heck, if you watch most people with DA/SA guns, they don't even practice with them in double-action mode, especially when they want to show off how good they are.
3. Saying that trigger weight doesn't matter because of stress/short engagement distances/whatever is a flawed point of view. Stress magnifies shooter limitations, and under those circumstances you do not want a trigger system that complicates hitting the target with a heavy pull and inconsistent shot-over-shot trigger weights. Furthermore, assuming short engagement distances is to prepare for only the best-case scenario, which is misguided. Why would you want to handicap yourself in the event an other-than-short-range problem presents itself?
4. Consider the time factor. Deactivating the manual safety on a SA gun does not take extra time, because the action is done concurrent with the draw. With both guns on target in the same time, an accurate shot with a 12 pound trigger will take appreciably longer than an accurate shot with a 6 pound trigger... pulling a long 12 pound trigger cannot be done as quickly as a short 6 pound trigger without hopelessly duffing the shot. Trick revolver shooters with supertuned custom Smith & Wessons notwithstanding.
5. Everyone with a stake in fast, accurate shooting in competition uses a single-action trigger system when the rules allow it. Chalking this up to "tradition" requires that you not actually look at the guns involved, with their polymer frames and titanium parts and trick optics boosted from a MiG-27. Is there a reason why you wouldn't want to use a system noted for fast, accurate shooting in real life, too? (If not to the extreme of 2.5 pound triggers and holographic sights...)
(The real answer to all of this, by the way, would sound alot like: pick a system that works for you, and then master it.)
1. Shooting in self defense is, first and foremost, about hitting. You might call this Rule Zero; without the hit, the gun is nothing. Accordingly, one could argue from first principles that anything that detracts from the hit is contrary to the spirit of the thing in and of itself.
2. Most shooters will admit to shooting a gun with a short, relatively light trigger better than one with a long, relatively heavy trigger. Heck, if you watch most people with DA/SA guns, they don't even practice with them in double-action mode, especially when they want to show off how good they are.
3. Saying that trigger weight doesn't matter because of stress/short engagement distances/whatever is a flawed point of view. Stress magnifies shooter limitations, and under those circumstances you do not want a trigger system that complicates hitting the target with a heavy pull and inconsistent shot-over-shot trigger weights. Furthermore, assuming short engagement distances is to prepare for only the best-case scenario, which is misguided. Why would you want to handicap yourself in the event an other-than-short-range problem presents itself?
4. Consider the time factor. Deactivating the manual safety on a SA gun does not take extra time, because the action is done concurrent with the draw. With both guns on target in the same time, an accurate shot with a 12 pound trigger will take appreciably longer than an accurate shot with a 6 pound trigger... pulling a long 12 pound trigger cannot be done as quickly as a short 6 pound trigger without hopelessly duffing the shot. Trick revolver shooters with supertuned custom Smith & Wessons notwithstanding.
5. Everyone with a stake in fast, accurate shooting in competition uses a single-action trigger system when the rules allow it. Chalking this up to "tradition" requires that you not actually look at the guns involved, with their polymer frames and titanium parts and trick optics boosted from a MiG-27. Is there a reason why you wouldn't want to use a system noted for fast, accurate shooting in real life, too? (If not to the extreme of 2.5 pound triggers and holographic sights...)
(The real answer to all of this, by the way, would sound alot like: pick a system that works for you, and then master it.)
justice4all
Member
I prefer the point and shoot method of self defense. I own a Ruger with a satey/decocker, but I usually carry it with the safety off. I also like to teach people how to shoot, so having the safety is nice during those sessions. The bottom line is train with and know whatever kind of system you carry.
Sometimes I "broad stroke" things, one of my faults.
Handy:
My comments on Police departments were only based on the sales of pistols such as Glock, which appears to dominate, Sig and various brands that have DAO, with no manual safety. Certainly, there are departments that puchase autoloaders with manual safeties, maybe for that reason, maybe not! But the single largest seller appeas to be Glock. So, at the very least, having a manual safety is not the determining factor.
M11- I had to look that up...Sig! Had me on that one. But it appears the M9 is the primary handgun and a manual safety was mandated. Good timing for the American Rifleman to have an article on the military weapons!!!
Graystar: What I meant by "clearly safer" is that little extra margin of safety when a typically responsible user losses control of the handgun, or allows it to be places where it can be "handled" by those who shouldn't, i.e. children, non-gun people. It shouldn't happen, but "stuff" does.
P95Carry- Nothing wrong with chunky and ugly. I read good things about those pistols.
Not trying to defend or promote 1911s. What the manual safety gives, the short light trigger takes away- unless you really mean to do it.
Handy:
My comments on Police departments were only based on the sales of pistols such as Glock, which appears to dominate, Sig and various brands that have DAO, with no manual safety. Certainly, there are departments that puchase autoloaders with manual safeties, maybe for that reason, maybe not! But the single largest seller appeas to be Glock. So, at the very least, having a manual safety is not the determining factor.
M11- I had to look that up...Sig! Had me on that one. But it appears the M9 is the primary handgun and a manual safety was mandated. Good timing for the American Rifleman to have an article on the military weapons!!!
Graystar: What I meant by "clearly safer" is that little extra margin of safety when a typically responsible user losses control of the handgun, or allows it to be places where it can be "handled" by those who shouldn't, i.e. children, non-gun people. It shouldn't happen, but "stuff" does.
P95Carry- Nothing wrong with chunky and ugly. I read good things about those pistols.
Not trying to defend or promote 1911s. What the manual safety gives, the short light trigger takes away- unless you really mean to do it.
H
Handy
Guest
45auto,
What I was pointing out is that there is no military mandate for a safety. The M9 was quite nearly a SIG 226. The military mandate was for a gun that decocks.
What I was pointing out is that there is no military mandate for a safety. The M9 was quite nearly a SIG 226. The military mandate was for a gun that decocks.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
lets compare the whole gun.
how many moving parts are there in a 1911?
how many in a CZ?
how many in a sig?
I find the 1911 simpler from an ergonomics perspective since i don't have to shift my hand around to reach the trigger like i have to on the overly massive Cz-75s and glocks. ( i mean this, too. compared to a 1911, czs, berettas, and every other double stack i've handled is a horse pistol, except for the BHP, which fits my hand almost as well as a 1911.)
besides, i've never forgotten to disengage the safety on my 1911, and I INSTINCTIVELY TRY TO FLICK THE SAFETY OFF ON GUNS WITHOUT THE THUMB SAFETY.
I also have an ambidextrous thumb safety, and due to cirumstances, shoot pistols right handed and rifles left handed.
i shoot just about as well left handed as right and can operate all the controls with either hand.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
