Manual Safety-Yes or No

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Were I trying to convert anyone at all to anything I might care how I am coming off to those who think KISS in their SD pistol is the be all end all. I don't see how these people manage to draw without fumbling, grip the pistol without accidentally dropping the mag, and locate a trigger and not wildly jerk it off target.

Maybe someday someone will invent a pistol that will have no external controls necessary at all. Won't that be the day when one can merely stab wildly with either of the first two fingers at the panic sensor area in the general location of where the trigger used to be?

As an aside, I just don't know how any military pilot has ever managed to shoot down an enemy jet. With all of the master switches, systems switches, tracking to do, and finally don't miss that button to fire. . . .:rolleyes: Thank God they actually practice not missing the buttons or losing track of where they are located.
 
Actually, that is and has been a major problem with fighter pilots. It's called task saturation and is the reason that the Top Gun school was created and that cockpits are constantly being updated to be easier to use.

One of our helicopters was ruined the other day because the pilots, who are considered top notch, didn't execute a procedure in the correct sequence due to the scary circumstance they were in. It was unusual, not exactly what they had been trained for and happened very fast. They did their best with their training, and that's why noone was hurt.

But these two excellent pilots still screwed up a four step procedure.


So, I imagine, did my friend who flew his F-18 into the Pacific. And the another friend who's body and her helicopter where never recovered from the Med.

Don't tell me well trained people don't screw up the simple stuff. I work with the best trained people in the world, and they make errors.
 
Safety VS No Safety

Perhaps the complication of a cockpit may be extreme when comparing it to the simple activation of a safety. Units that practice CQB deal with safeties and guns routinely. They make it work. I am not currently in the military, so I will relate situations of which I am currently familiar.

I have hunted since I was six years old. Of course at that young of an age, I was unarmed and simply followed my father into the woods in pursuit of squirrels, ducks, etc. But as I grew, I was handed a BB gun, a pellet gun, and eventually a single barrel .410, a 20 ga. auto, then others. This led to high power rifles, pistols, and a lot of hunting.

I have killed deer, squirrels, ducks, etc by "jumping" them. In all of this time and hunting experience, I have yet to miss a safety or forgot to cock those pieces that needed cocking. It happens so fast, that one never realizes the process.

The same happens to anyone who practices handguns. It is a matter of repetition.
 
Safety or no safety... whether it is nobler to suffer a mechanical device you should never truly trust for the sake of social mores or to say no.

My brain is my safety. If my weapon clears its holster under my will, something is about to suffer a FMJ slug. Otherwise, my baby stays seated. Manual safeties are something man should have never invented. It creates some sense that the weapon is incapable of discharge. A deadly mistake.

I bought my Walther because there is no manual safeties... It helps to impress the idea that a drawn weapon will kill on command, no questions asked and no taking it back. THere is no in between in my mind. No safety to say, "hey, you can still not pull the trigger!". That thought came and went when I pulled my weapon.
 
"No.

A defense gun needs to be safe, but it also needs to be fireable under great duress. A safety is a possible hinderance to defending your life, and a more serious one than a 12 lbs. trigger.

A manual safety is not 'KISS'."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I agree 100%. I don't want to have to think about the safety if I want my gun to fire. I don't really like the iead of a SA gun for self defense. Unfortunatly, many of the best guns are SA with manual safeties: BHP, Star Firestar, 1911s, etc.

;)

My preference for a self defense gun would be a DA/SA with a decocker and no safety. SIG has it down perfectly but their triggers are too long for my hand.
 
Mariner's Response

Bravo, sir. Bravo!

The mechanical safety is nothing more than a backup for the times that we have a brainfart, and should never be trusted
to keep the inept from killing themselves or others. The
real safety is the trigger finger, which should never be on the
trigger until we intend to pull it.

Thank you for speaking the simple truth!

Tuner
 
1911tuner,


Are you saying that you, following the Mariner's logic, don't carry a gun with the safety engaged?
 
What do you do....

if you carry with the safety off and a LEO wants your gun for whatever reason??

Do you put the safety on before you give it to him, possibly making him worry about what you're doing as you retreive it from your holster or do you give it to him with safety off?

Personally I'd rather have it on when giving it to him but not at the expense of a panicked cop who hears the safety clickingand doesn't know what I'm doing.

What to do...what to do?????
 
Don't give your gun to a cop, thats "what to do".:p Let him get his own gun. Parasites.:barf:
 
I guess I'll tell him...

to get his own gun !

Yeah right, I've already got three hots and a cot in a place of my own choosing and I like it like that !
 
I prefer a manual safety, but it is not required for me to purchase a carry gun. I have no problem carrying a Sig or the likes. I DO like to have an exposed hammer, though. I train with my carry gun (1911), so I don't worry about forgetting the safety if I ever have to use it. The motion is automatic for me when I draw the pistol (I practice every day at home - unloaded, of course). This is another one of those questions that has no right or wrong answer, just depends on what you like and what you train with.
 
Handy has some weird ideas and he upsets many people but I think he is right on the money most of the time. As much as people like the 1911, it is NOT the ultimate defense handgun by any means.

I don't understand why it is so hard to understand that adding safety levers and other things that stop your gun from firing when you want it to is a bad idea. Why have them? We don't need them, so why add complexity to an already complex situation?
 
True Andrew ... and this supports this ''individual'' nature of choices.

My P97 would seem horrendous perhaps to 1911 fans and officionado's .. and yet for me . it shoots every bit as good as my buddy with his 1911 .. it certainly is very much ''what suits the individual .... for sure.:)
 
Either one is just fine for me but

There is a good reason to have a safety on some guns for some uses.

In my view it has very little to do with quick drawing on some guy in a 7-11.

It also doesn't have a thing to do with the trigger guard or "my Brain is my safety"(some are safer than others if you know what I mean) Actually, some of the dumbest people I've ever met use that as thier mantra. It doesn't make me feel safer at all.

It's about something, anything, activating the trigger when the trigger should not be activated. Yes, sure safeties can fail, but so can everything else.

Thinking that a safety will give you a false sense of security is silly. Do you check the bore for obstructions every single time you draw your weapon(how about under pressure)? If you don't you have a false sense of security. Do you weigh each and every bullet to make sure there is not a double charge? There is your false sense of security again.

Your safety could fail... but so could your sear...even in your holster. Even with your trigger finger shoved safely up your...

nose.

Both kinds of guns kill good guys and bad guys all day every day. To think one is better than the other is just silly. It depends on a lot of variables. Who, Where, Why, How Many, How Long, did I or didn't I, Did they......ad infinitum.

-bevr
 
Still not convinced, sorry...

I am still not convinced a manual safety will make my gun safer. There have been a lot of arguments submitted in this thread based on nostalgia related to the 1911 and the way we used to do it with such and such in this and that, etc, etc. I respect everyone and their opinions on either side of this thing but....

The bottom line is no amount of training means anything if that safety is in the wrong position at the wrong time. if you rely on it alone and not use other basic safety skills instead, sooner or later you will have an AD or a click when you need to hear a bang.
Finger off the trigger unless you are going to shoot is a universal
safety practice for all firearms that works pretty damn well.

People are human and they **** up occasionally and make inevitable mistakes. I don't care what your skill level is, you can still mess up, especially in the heat of the moment. I wouldn't want anyone to think I'm perfect by any means and unable to make mistakes with a firearm or anything else. Some members of this forum seem to think they are incapable of error. That state of mind is the most dangerous thing of all and needs to be reconsidered.

Don't forget, John Browning didn't have the slide lock on his original design of the 1911. He was content with the grip safety. The slide lock was added after it was requested from the government. Love or hate Glock as you will, everyone must admit his design featuring no manual safety has had great success in the last 20 years and it ain't just because he sells 'em cheap to the cops.

Pico
 
BevrFevr,

"Actually, some of the dumbest people I've ever met use that as thier mantra. It doesn't make me feel safer at all. "


Well, if they're the dumbest peeps you met, you probably didn't want them holding a weapon at all, eh? Thus, their views on proper safety are mute.

My walther is carried in DA status most of the time... thus the striker is forward and nothing but the mag spring is under tension.... Nothing can go boom unless I make that LONG trigger squeeze...
 
I have a handgun with a manual safety, but I retain option of not using it, should I so desire.



Just don't have that option with a Glock/XD/Kahr...



The best of both worlds... ;):neener::evil:
 
That Glock left the manual safety off of his pistols is a mark of genius?


Um, sure, like the world had never seen DAO before. . . .:confused:
 
re Safety

Don't forget, John Browning didn't have the slide lock on his original design of the 1911. He was content with the grip safety. The slide lock was added after it was requested from the government.

Thassa fact, Jack!
 
Out of curiosity -- wasn't it the grip safety that was added at the Army's insistence rather than the thumb safety. I think all of JMB's previous designs included the thumb safety, and I know he retained the thumb safety on the P35, but he dropped the grip safety.
 
I've heard eight different versions of this, but I think that both items were additions, first the grip, than the manual.

Remember, the 1911 started out as a cock-on-the-draw weapon to be used by cavalry who were shooting Colt SAAs. Browning's gun was no more complicated externally.


And the P35 design was heavily worked over by the FN engineer. Who knows how JMB would have built it. He used grip safeties in several pistols.
 
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