Military/Police shotguns
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Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
The military currently uses Remington 870s, Mossberg 590s and Benellis M4s. Non issue shotguns also tend to show up in Hot Zones.
Police depts the same, with the 870 most common by far.
Some depts use Ithaca's Model 37.
All of these are good choices.
Police depts the same, with the 870 most common by far.
Some depts use Ithaca's Model 37.
All of these are good choices.
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Gord
Member
I'm just going to toss a generic "don't choose your weapon by what the Navy SEAL SOCOM SWAT SpecOps operators use" admonition out, here. Use what feels and operates best to you - if shotguns have one common thread, it's that they're built to last. In all probability, it'll outlast you. Doesn't get much better from a value-per-dollar standpoint.
Filling the "tactical" niche are the Mossberg 590 and the 870 Police/870 Tactical. The 870 is the most popular pumpgun in the US, commonly used by police, and it used to be true - still might be - that more Remington 870s have been manufactured and sold than all other pumps combined. The 590 is the issue shotgun for the Army.
If you're looking to start with a plain-jane gun and add things as they suit you, the Mossy 500A/Maverick 88 and Rem 870 Wingmaster/Express are the "normal" versions of their respective lines.
The 500 has an aluminum receiver that (mechanically speaking) will wear out faster than the 870's steel receiver, but (practically speaking) either one will probably still be seeing service with your kids when you're ambling around in a walker drinking prune juice and trying to remember your own birthday. The Maverick 88 is the "barebones" version of the 500, though I couldn't tell you what the differences are. Mossberg 500 forends are not compatible with the Mav88 without the use of a (cheap) adaptor, as the Mav88 rail assembly differs from that of the 500.
The 870 Wingmaster will come with a blued finish, slightly more attention to the internals (someone correct me if I'm wrong) and a presentable wood stock, in comparison to the 870 Express, which comes with a satin-finished beechwood(?) stock and a "dry" parkerized finish that is somewhat susceptible to rust; a quick wipedown with some sort of RIG (rust-inhibiting grease) should rectify the problem.
Expect to pay a little more for a Remington than for a Mossberg, generally speaking. Mossberg 500s can be picked up at your local Wal*Mart with a vent-rib hunting barrel for around $160 NIB, or in HD configuration for about $250-280, according to budsgunshop.com. NIB 870 Expresses run about $260-320 depending on store, rebates and barrel configuration. You should be able to find at least a couple of each at your local pawnshop; if the weapon looks well cared for, it's probably a safe buy. Shotguns don't wear out - they just wear in.
Filling the "tactical" niche are the Mossberg 590 and the 870 Police/870 Tactical. The 870 is the most popular pumpgun in the US, commonly used by police, and it used to be true - still might be - that more Remington 870s have been manufactured and sold than all other pumps combined. The 590 is the issue shotgun for the Army.
If you're looking to start with a plain-jane gun and add things as they suit you, the Mossy 500A/Maverick 88 and Rem 870 Wingmaster/Express are the "normal" versions of their respective lines.
The 500 has an aluminum receiver that (mechanically speaking) will wear out faster than the 870's steel receiver, but (practically speaking) either one will probably still be seeing service with your kids when you're ambling around in a walker drinking prune juice and trying to remember your own birthday. The Maverick 88 is the "barebones" version of the 500, though I couldn't tell you what the differences are. Mossberg 500 forends are not compatible with the Mav88 without the use of a (cheap) adaptor, as the Mav88 rail assembly differs from that of the 500.
The 870 Wingmaster will come with a blued finish, slightly more attention to the internals (someone correct me if I'm wrong) and a presentable wood stock, in comparison to the 870 Express, which comes with a satin-finished beechwood(?) stock and a "dry" parkerized finish that is somewhat susceptible to rust; a quick wipedown with some sort of RIG (rust-inhibiting grease) should rectify the problem.
Expect to pay a little more for a Remington than for a Mossberg, generally speaking. Mossberg 500s can be picked up at your local Wal*Mart with a vent-rib hunting barrel for around $160 NIB, or in HD configuration for about $250-280, according to budsgunshop.com. NIB 870 Expresses run about $260-320 depending on store, rebates and barrel configuration. You should be able to find at least a couple of each at your local pawnshop; if the weapon looks well cared for, it's probably a safe buy. Shotguns don't wear out - they just wear in.
md7
Member
very true words. and that is the case with practically all modern pump shotguns of reputable companies. pick em up and see what feels good to ya.
I just was curious actually. I had read an article in Field & Stream about the top 50 shotguns of all time and the Remington 870 ranked #1. I wondered if that was what most police agencies and the military used and so it appears that they do.
DMR
Member
Can you give a source for that? The M-4/M-1014 has a lot of issues that are not going to be meet when used has a GP military shotgun. Right now Pump Guns are the ONLY thing that will do everything a Military Shotgun is required to do.
Chipperman
Member
Of the scatterguns I've seen in Sandbox pictures, the Mossberg seems to be most prevalent.
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Of what I've seen of activities in Iraq and A-stan, Mossbergs and Remingtons outnumber the Benellis by a factor of at least 3.
That could just be budgetary. We have used the 500/590 and 870 for far longer and they do not wear out as noted.
As to police shotguns here and now, my best guess is the 870 comprises at least 90% of all dept weapons. Ithacas and Mossbergs are most of what's left.
ANY of these make good shotguns for us civilians.
That could just be budgetary. We have used the 500/590 and 870 for far longer and they do not wear out as noted.
As to police shotguns here and now, my best guess is the 870 comprises at least 90% of all dept weapons. Ithacas and Mossbergs are most of what's left.
ANY of these make good shotguns for us civilians.
Check out the Field & Stream article. I didn't catch what month/year it was from. Maybe somebody else will know. I read it in a doctor's office waiting room (I was pleasantly surprised, it was about as good as the time I found issues of QST in my primary doctor's office waiting room).
It was something like Top 50 Shotguns of all time. They ranked the Rem 870 #1, but the Mossys didn't start to appear until the late teens or 20s if I remember correctly.
It was something like Top 50 Shotguns of all time. They ranked the Rem 870 #1, but the Mossys didn't start to appear until the late teens or 20s if I remember correctly.
evbutler462
Member
Re: Your reference to shotguns being issued for SWAT officers:
As a retired LEO, I do a ride along with the guys frequently and am sad to state that within the past few years shotguns are being phased out in law enforcement in lieu of 223 rifles. Some kind of insurance and liability issues. The guys I ride with have a AR look alike rifle with stamped "Patrolman" on it. 30 round magazine. No shotgun for over two years. It seems to be the trend now. I carried various brand shotguns in the trunk of my cruiser for 30 years and never had to use it except for annual qualifications. Also had a Mini-14 that came in mighty handy a few times.
When I went on vacation last year I did a ride along in another state and they also had 223 rifles in lieu of shotguns. I had a discussion with their SWAT team captain and he told me that they had discontinued the use of shotguns several years ago. The precision needed for their work required an accurate rifle. The projectile path can be controlled with a rifle. With a shotgun, it is impossible to control the buckshot pellets and that the slugs had too much penetration. He further explained that the 223 projectile will not completely penetrate a human body and if they miss the target, the projectile disintegrates upon impact with any hard object, such as a post, tree, or pavement.
I recently talked with a sheriff in a very rural county and they still were issuing shotguns but were getting flack from the liability carriers. He was seriously considering allowing the troops to turn them in when the budget is planned, as it saves them some insurance premiums. They already have Mini-14s.
Apparently this is a trend.
As a retired LEO, I do a ride along with the guys frequently and am sad to state that within the past few years shotguns are being phased out in law enforcement in lieu of 223 rifles. Some kind of insurance and liability issues. The guys I ride with have a AR look alike rifle with stamped "Patrolman" on it. 30 round magazine. No shotgun for over two years. It seems to be the trend now. I carried various brand shotguns in the trunk of my cruiser for 30 years and never had to use it except for annual qualifications. Also had a Mini-14 that came in mighty handy a few times.
When I went on vacation last year I did a ride along in another state and they also had 223 rifles in lieu of shotguns. I had a discussion with their SWAT team captain and he told me that they had discontinued the use of shotguns several years ago. The precision needed for their work required an accurate rifle. The projectile path can be controlled with a rifle. With a shotgun, it is impossible to control the buckshot pellets and that the slugs had too much penetration. He further explained that the 223 projectile will not completely penetrate a human body and if they miss the target, the projectile disintegrates upon impact with any hard object, such as a post, tree, or pavement.
I recently talked with a sheriff in a very rural county and they still were issuing shotguns but were getting flack from the liability carriers. He was seriously considering allowing the troops to turn them in when the budget is planned, as it saves them some insurance premiums. They already have Mini-14s.
Apparently this is a trend.
soccergod04
Member
The SWAT team captain saying a .223 won't completely penetrate a human body? Isn't that one of the big complaints that US military types are making against the round in the current areas of conflict?
evbutler462
Member
When the projectile expends all it's energy in the body, it has used all it's energy. If it penetrates, there is energy remaining. It does more damage if it does not penetrate. When the bullet utilizes all it's energy in the body cavity, it is much more effective.
I am not aware of the problems of which you speak concerning problems with the military complaints.
For some reason, I can understand why law enforcement in urban area don't want to spray buckshot pellets around or use slugs that keep on keeping on, even after they completely penetrate their intended target. I always had a shotgun in my cruiser and it gave me a sense of security. However, when the chips were down, the Mini-14 was the right weapon and the one our team used during situations requiring more than a handgun.
I've been retired 15 years and no doubt change is coming and has come to law enforcement. I well remember when the only sidearm we were allowed to use was the 38 revolver with round nose loads. Then in the late 1960's we went to 357 magnum revolvers. Shortly before I retired, law enforcement pretner everywhere went to semiautos. I was able to get a waiver to continue using my revolver for a short while. Then the insurance carrier wouldn't grant revolver waivers anymore, so I retired after 30 years, Not especially because of having to carry a plastic POS, but because I was and am getting some age on me. It was time to go.
Now I am recovering from the big C and am glad to get that pension check each month. Doing a ride along once in a while keeps me going.
Happy shooting!
I am not aware of the problems of which you speak concerning problems with the military complaints.
For some reason, I can understand why law enforcement in urban area don't want to spray buckshot pellets around or use slugs that keep on keeping on, even after they completely penetrate their intended target. I always had a shotgun in my cruiser and it gave me a sense of security. However, when the chips were down, the Mini-14 was the right weapon and the one our team used during situations requiring more than a handgun.
I've been retired 15 years and no doubt change is coming and has come to law enforcement. I well remember when the only sidearm we were allowed to use was the 38 revolver with round nose loads. Then in the late 1960's we went to 357 magnum revolvers. Shortly before I retired, law enforcement pretner everywhere went to semiautos. I was able to get a waiver to continue using my revolver for a short while. Then the insurance carrier wouldn't grant revolver waivers anymore, so I retired after 30 years, Not especially because of having to carry a plastic POS, but because I was and am getting some age on me. It was time to go.
Now I am recovering from the big C and am glad to get that pension check each month. Doing a ride along once in a while keeps me going.
Happy shooting!
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Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Ev, thanks for your service. Glad to hear you're on the mend.
A big plus for the .223 is it's way easier to get folks proficient with it vs the shotgun.
Not "Qualified", actually able to use it well and fast.
The big reason is recoil. Combine that with sub standard training and the old macho blind spots about stock fit and using good form. You end up with folks that fear shotguns and are totally ineffective with them.
For instance, smaller folks not only have trouble reaching the forearm on shotguns but shorter arms mean they lack leverage and have trouble holding the thing up.
Depts do little to make the playing field level. Results, some cops are less prepared and less well armed.
The various .223 platforms are often better suited for smaller cops than a 7 lb 12 gauge with 9 or 12 pellet 00.
A big plus for the .223 is it's way easier to get folks proficient with it vs the shotgun.
Not "Qualified", actually able to use it well and fast.
The big reason is recoil. Combine that with sub standard training and the old macho blind spots about stock fit and using good form. You end up with folks that fear shotguns and are totally ineffective with them.
For instance, smaller folks not only have trouble reaching the forearm on shotguns but shorter arms mean they lack leverage and have trouble holding the thing up.
Depts do little to make the playing field level. Results, some cops are less prepared and less well armed.
The various .223 platforms are often better suited for smaller cops than a 7 lb 12 gauge with 9 or 12 pellet 00.
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evbutler462
Member
Dave, feeling much better. Still on chemo. I'll start radiation next month and that I dread. Thanks for thinking about my health.
I never had much use for the shotgun in law enforcement due in part with the factors you mentioned. When it was necessary to do serious take downs, my team always preferred the 223 as the shots could be placed accurately. We never used the shotgun due to it's limitations of shot placement and distance to the target. Close enough to use a handgun, do it. If not, the Mini-14 served its intended purpose quite well without spraying buckshot all over the area.
Before I went into law enforcement I loved my shotguns. During my retirement I love them evn more. Unfortunately my health has taken a temporary turn for the worse, though with a good prognosis. With the next 12 months, I hope to be a survivor. Time will tell.
In the meantime, I will be cleaning my guns and make an occasional trip out to the farm to give the crows a dose of #6 shot with my latest addition to the gun safe: a Quails Fargo 20 gauge.
Happy shooting!
I never had much use for the shotgun in law enforcement due in part with the factors you mentioned. When it was necessary to do serious take downs, my team always preferred the 223 as the shots could be placed accurately. We never used the shotgun due to it's limitations of shot placement and distance to the target. Close enough to use a handgun, do it. If not, the Mini-14 served its intended purpose quite well without spraying buckshot all over the area.
Before I went into law enforcement I loved my shotguns. During my retirement I love them evn more. Unfortunately my health has taken a temporary turn for the worse, though with a good prognosis. With the next 12 months, I hope to be a survivor. Time will tell.
In the meantime, I will be cleaning my guns and make an occasional trip out to the farm to give the crows a dose of #6 shot with my latest addition to the gun safe: a Quails Fargo 20 gauge.
Happy shooting!
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Shotguns are great weapons for shotgunners. Not everyone is a shotgunner.
In police matters, I see the shotgun as a GP weapon for only a segment of the roster. .223 weapons are GP for nigh all.
Good luck with your recovery.
In police matters, I see the shotgun as a GP weapon for only a segment of the roster. .223 weapons are GP for nigh all.
Good luck with your recovery.
jobu07
Contributing Member
Our arms room has 12 Mossberg 500's in it. I'd prefer 870's, but its what we're MTOE authorized. 6 of them are equipped as pistol grip only (quick door breaching weapons) and 6 are equipped with shoulder stock. All have 20" barrels.
Just for rerference this is an Infantry Company in 4ID.
Just for rerference this is an Infantry Company in 4ID.
W.E.G.
Member
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