My first SHTF scenario

[DaveBeal]

Thanks, Funderb. I don't really expect to change anyone's mind, but maybe I'll provide some entertainment.

And I really am here to learn. Since I signed up for the NRA class a couple weeks ago, I've spent most of my free time reading gun mags, Googling "handguns", etc and following links. That's how I learned impressive technical phrases like "field stripping a 1911".

And skarpenz, what's "ftl"? I checked the Urban Dictionary, but all I got was "Fruit of the Loom".

 

[20nickels]

To the OP.
That shop had 2 of the three things criminals want and their behavior was clearly suspicious looking whether they intended it to be or not. If you dress at act like your going to rob the place you will get treated as such, it just comes with the territory.
Don't think for a second you did the wrong thing. It could have looked much like this 2005 Omaha, Ne. Benson pawn shop robbery;
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1531435/posts

 

[Floppy_D]

I go back and forth on this. Last year, while I was on leave around Christmas, I flew back to see my Dad in Texas. We were going to shoot out on a friend's property the next day, and since I came in late, were in a bit of a scamper to find ammo. My Dad knew of a local store, so there we went. (Locals before Wally-world). He pulled up out front to let me out (it was cold) so I could see if they were open. As I walked in, the lady behind the counter had a revolver pointed directly at me. I backpedaled like a clinton on trial, and she lowered the gun. She told me that she saw a truck pull right up front, and saw someone get out, and was "this close to shooting"... because I "came in too quick". I told the lady that my intention was to buy ammo, and that I prefered the hospitality at Wally-world, at least there I had never been drawed down on.

 

[skarpenz]

Hey, DaveBeal, ftl = for the lose. Just some stupid internet lingo, haha. Its cool though that your getting into guns and firearms in general. Especially since you are obviously of the liberal persuasion. Just keep your eyes and ears open, maybe we'll convince you yet that CCW's are a very good and necessary thing.

 

[AZ_Rebel]

Serious question: How many times have you been in a position where you felt the need for lethal force? In my 51 years, never.

Dave... how many times have you died in your 51 years? Never? Then you obviously don't have life insurance to protect your family in case you do drop dead tomorrow! (Not that we would want you to!)

Its the same with being properly prepared to protect your life and your family... You may never need it - odds are that you won't. But what if one of your 3 kids is being threatened in a situation NOW that could result in serious injury or death? What would YOU do? What could you do? Not being armed limits your ability to intervene.

Now that does not mean that every situation can be helped with a gun... far from it. But... if you need a gun, nothing else is quite the same.
As a Liberal thinker (Now that's an Oxymoron!) you probably do not agree with personal freedoms and your personal responsibility for your own safety. As a Liberal you probably rely on 9-1-1 and the "professionals" to protect you and yours... and that's fine... that's YOUR choice*. It just does not happen to be MY choice and your philosophy (and Politics) interfere with MY choice because you happen to claim "some knowledge of human nature and fallibility"... Hmmmm... what do you know about my nature and falibility, hmmmm....

That's why you'll get your eyeballs handed to you on a platter when you dispense that BS.

I don't really expect to change anyone's mind, but maybe I'll provide some entertainment.

No... you won't change anyone's mind with the drivel you have posted here. As fas as "entertainment" goes... Liberals are so easy its hardly fair.

You have not been in a life threatening situation that may have needed lethal force in your 51 years. Wish I could say the same about my 63!

But don't go away mad... stay, read learn. Post if you want to but don't be surprised if you get some "disagreements".

*(To quote one our member's sig line) Remember, when seconds count the Police are only minutes away

 

[stevereno1]

Good stuff!

 

[Elmer Fudd]

Serious question: How many times have you been in a position where you felt the need for lethal force? In my 51 years, never.

I'm 41 and never felt the need to get up on a soapbox on a corner or run for political office. Despite those that obviously abuse the rights and implied obligations of free speech and democracy. I do feel the need to CCW, and feel glad I live in a state, if not a country, that has not completely infringed these rights. Despite the rare individual who abuses this right and implied obligation.

All these rights were endowed on us by the Creator. It is our fellow man who takes them away, usually in a selfish manner because he feels (incorrectly, but it's the feeling that counts, right?) it enhances his own short term safety. The long term ramifications of degenerating into a society of sheep who depend on others to protect them and contribute no personal effort whatsoever to their security or that of the greater society is completely ignored.

A guy who is probably near and dear to your heart, Wesley Clark, said this:

"I have got 20 some odd guns in the house. I like to hunt. I have grown up with guns all my life, but people who like assault weapons should join the United States Army, we have them."

Like most politicians, he fails to acknowledge the purpose of the Second Amendment, which is ultimately to protect us from people like him. It really has nothing to do with hunting or crime prevention, although those are nice byproducts.

An intellectual fellow traveler of his said the same thing:

"Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA - ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State." - Heinrich Himmler 1935

And his boss said:

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so." - Adolf Hitler, April 11, 1942

 

[oobray]

Wow, the subject of this post sure has bounced around alot.

DaveBeal,

I'm going to issue the same advice that many others already have. You may disagree with CCW, it's likely only because you are unfamiliar and scared, however I think that you will find that in many instances you are better off with an armed citizenry than an armed government.
Also, just as was previously stated. If you choose to rely on the government for your protection, that's your problem however please to do not tread on my ability to defend myself and my family.
As someone who has studied criminology and criminal justice for quite some time now I can tell you that you're right, and wrong about your chances for being a victim of violent crime. Take where I am in Dallas, TX for example. If you consider only Murder, aggravated assault and robbery I have a 1 in 120 chance of being a victim. I'm not going to take my chances.
If you've lived 51 years without being victimized, consider yourself lucky. Also consider that the population over 65 is 6 times more likely to be victimized! I would also ascert that you have probably come close to victimization several times however, your lack of situational awareness due to your trust in public safety programs probably precluded you from noticing your vulnerability.

Also, you said you "googled" handguns, why don't you google "public duty doctrine" in doing so you will learn that the police have absolutely NO obligation to protect you or your family. Their job is to protect society as a whole. Look at cases such as Warren vs Discrict of Columbia. Then PM me and tell me whether or not you feel safe trusting the police for your protection.

 

[ilcylic]

Serious question: How many times have you been in a position where you felt the need for lethal force? In my 51 years, never.

Thus far, in my 31 years, only once. So, one five minute period, out of the approximately 3,263,000 five minute periods that have made up my life. But when I needed it, I needed it. And I was darn glad I had it.

But, just like Lee says in my signature, it's not the odds that matter, it's the stakes. You're absolutely right. America is a fairly safe place. If you avoid making poor choices about where to go or who to be with, your chances of being involved in a violent altercation are pretty slim. But when it's happening, it's happening to you, and that fact that it was unlikely doesn't make it any less dangerous.

And occasionally, just occasionally, it does happen. If you doubt, I urge you to consider the recent events at the mall in Omaha.

AZ_Rebel: I'm trying to be polite when I say this, so please forgive me if in my imperfections I somehow fail in courtesy. I understand the point you're trying to make, and it's a good one. But your method of delivery leaves something to be desired. Yes, Mr. Beal has set himself up for the typical ridicule of the gun owning community by self identifying as a liberal, but this is The High Road, the home of the atypical gun owner, and there's no reason for us to rise to the bait. (No, Mr. Beal, I don't think you did it on purpose. I'm just trying to make a point.) Making cutting remarks about how "liberal thinking" is an oxymoron, or referring to what he's posted as drivel, really does little to advance your argument. When you smack people in the nose, they tend to close down, and what you're saying will bounce right off. We can't change mind if those minds are closed, and delivering insults right before wisdom is a good way to close those minds down before your message ever gets there.

Mr. Beal came in here "knowing" that CCW was a bad and dangerous thing to have in the world. We had the opportunity to convince him otherwise, (and perhaps we still do) but instead we've likely sent him away not only with his previous ideal that CCW is bad, but with a newfound affirmation of the typical stereotype that gun owners are a bunch of brash, hotheaded jerks.

The average satisfied customer tells three other people. The typical dissatisfied customer tells thirty. We are in the middle of a culture war here. We do well to convert anyone we can. Honey works a lot better than vinegar.

 

[oobray]

ilcylic,

I have nothing to say.... But Well said!

 

[Funderb]

It seems that AZ_Rebel is a pretty frequent offender of THR courtesy ideals.




/edit: The Omaha mall incidnent was a regretably tragic one. If, of course, just one person with a CHL,
and fufilling, were there. But there's hindsight for you.

 

[AZ_Rebel]

It seems that AZ_Rebel is a pretty frequent offender of THR courtesy ideals.

/edit: The Omaha mall incidnent(sic) was a regretably tragic one. If, of course, just one person with a CHL,
and fufilling, were there. But there's hindsight for you

.

Glad to see you agree with me - discourteous as I am!

 

[DaveBeal]

Thanks, ilcylic. I'm still here and still reading. I've seen some things here and in a private conversation that make me less worried about concealed carry.

 

[AZ_Rebel]

AZ_Rebel: I'm trying to be polite when I say this, so please forgive me if in my imperfections I somehow fail in courtesy. I understand the point you're trying to make, and it's a good one. But your method of delivery leaves something to be desired.

Point taken. The problem rises with introducing politics into a discussion - we will often get an opposing view. When someone dangles their political pursuasion in their signature they are obviously trying to make a statement to where their core values lie... ignore that and Political Correctness becomes the norm. If you don't want people to take you as you present yourself - don't stick it in your signature or your profile.

But, you are right... I tend to call-em-as-I-see-em... and that can be abrasive to some. Been in too many arguments where nice-nice got you back stabbed...

<<<< Hey, AZ_Rebel... is that a shovel? No, son, that's a Spade!>>>

 

[Byron Quick]

I've been carrying concealed for over thirty years now. How many times have I been in situations where the laws of my state would have allowed the justifiable use of lethal force? Six. Really seven but the first time I wasn't armed. How many people have I shot? No one. In the closest, my attacker realized I was drawing a handgun. He ceased his attack and I ceased my defense. He went home. I went home. Now if he had continued his attack, I would probably have wound up on a ventilator if not dead.

As a result, I have serious problems with so-called 'progressives' who think I should either be dead or in a vegetative state on a ventilator.

Concealed carry has been around long enough to show exactly what all the con arguments are in reality: straw man arguments. If you look at statistics from concealed carry states absolutely NONE of the 'liberals' warnings have come true in any degree or fashion. These warnings of blood in the streets and OK Corral shootouts on every street corner have never occurred either in states requiring training or in states requiring no training.

 

[AZ_Rebel]

I'm still here and still reading. I've seen some things here and in a private conversation that make me less worried about concealed carry.

Glad to hear that Dave. Shows that you have an open mind and can handle an opposing view - and maybe a poke or two. I have welcomed you to this forum and urged you to stay... and do so again.

Don't forget - an opinion cannot be right or wrong... it can only be honest. You seem to be able to handle a different opinion better than some on THR.

 

[Funderb]

Yes, I must say, as much as I disagree for your obvious lack of tact, I do indeed agree with some of the thing you say, AZreb. haha.

 

[DaveBeal]

I saw that edit, Byron.

 

[ASM826]

Question for Dave Beal

How many times in your life have you needed seat belts? Maybe none, perhaps one or two. But if you need it, you need it right then.

Dave, if you knew you were going to be in a car accident, you'd stay home. If you had no choice about it, you'd want a roll cage, a 5 point harness, a helmet, and a Abrams tank to ride in. You consider the risk to be low, so you settle for a seat belt, choose to drive a car, and hope for the best.

If you knew you were going to a gunfight, say like the Marines going in to Falujjah, you would have a handgun, a rifle, body armor, grenades, and all your friends with handguns, rifles, body armor, and grenades. But the likelihood is low, so you settle for a concealed handgun, maybe a spare magazine, and hope for the best.

If you are not a troll, and you continue to post here, you will need to understand that this is a gathering of gun owners, gun carriers, gun enthusiasts. Those of us that live in places that allow us to carry do so.

I took the time to take the class, get a permit, pass a background check, select a firearm, a holster, alter how I dress, etc. I practice regularly. I certainly shoot more than any LEO would be required to. I did this fully expecting to never draw or use a weapon in a hostile situation. But just like my seat belt, I put it on, just in case.

 

[19-3Ben]

If you are not a troll, and you continue to post here, you will need to understand that this is a gathering of gun owners, gun carriers, gun enthusiasts.

ASM826- He is not a troll. We've established it, and I have privately confirmed it. Trolls don't keep coming back with open-minded,polite and interesting debate.
Not criticizing the rest of your post, as I thought it made a lot of sense. Just saying that no need to worry about the issue of "trollness."

 

[DaveBeal]

Reply to ASM826

Thank you, Ben.

How many times in your life have you needed seat belts? Maybe none, perhaps one or two. But if you need it, you need it right then.

Everything you say is true, ASM. Where the seatbelt/insurance policy analogy breaks down (and I not trying to be flippant) is that a seatbelt never injured a bystander.

If you are not a troll, and you continue to post here, you will need to understand that this is a gathering of gun owners, gun carriers, gun enthusiasts. Those of us that live in places that allow us to carry do so.

It didn't take me long to get that message. And for what it's worth, I'm a gun enthusiast, too.

I took the time to take the class, get a permit, pass a background check, select a firearm, a holster, alter how I dress, etc. I practice regularly. I certainly shoot more than any LEO would be required to. I did this fully expecting to never draw or use a weapon in a hostile situation. But just like my seat belt, I put it on, just in case.

I admit that I came to this forum thinking that people who carried concealed firearms were cowboys who were endangering the public. But I've read some things here, like ASM's statement above, that have helped to persuade me otherwise.

 

[skarpenz]

I support responsible CCW holders, not cowboys.

 

[Elmer Fudd]

Everything you say is true, ASM. Where the seatbelt/insurance policy analogy breaks down (and I not trying to be flippant) is that a seatbelt never injured a bystander.

The classic liberal fallacy - that the natural state of the world is perfection, that there are choices without cost. If a CCW had stopped the Omaha shooter after only 4 dead, but had injured someone themselves, would he have been a "cowboy?" Not knowing what we know now, you and the liberal media would be wringing your hands over the injured person, tut-tutting, and using pejoratives like "vigilante," "cowboy," etc. Of course, lost in the smoke of 20/20 hindsight would be the discussion of where the true blame for ANY casualties lies, with the PERPETRATOR, not the victims or those who try to stop him.

Usually missing from the discussion of potential CCW-injured bystanders are the number of bystanders killed and injured by the police when they get involved, and the people killed and injured by perpetrators while everyone sits around with their thumb up their rear waiting for the "professionals" to bail them out. The gold standard you hold up is hardly that.

My minimal range time is limited to maybe 150 rounds per month at the local IDPA match, and I probably get more rounds than the average police officer in the area. And very few police take advantage of the opportunity to shoot IDPA to improve their skills. The metro area I live has 1 million+ people. This last weekends' IDPA match (which had the best attendance I have seen) had just under 50 people competing, only a few of who were police.

Doing a quick search, I saw a post where a police officer said their ANNUAL round count for firearms training was 93 rounds. And I would bet that is punching paper and not any kind of more dynamic training.

 

[Travis Lee]

Back to the OP...

"misunderstood" good guys do not defy commands, cuss you out, and threaten to get even with you "on the street", when 3 armed men are aiming guns at them.

--Travis--

 

[ASM826]

Seatbelt analogy, continued

Dave,

You are right, anything that can be used as an offensive weapon might injure someone, and that someone might be a bystander. Very high standards of personal behavior must be expected of people in many situations. Commercial pilots, truck drivers, doctors, military, LEOs, building contractors, electricians, and so on, all have to act according to standards of behavior. The decision to use force, even in a justified defense, will change your life.

In the situation described above, if one of these people had pulled a firearm, all of them would have been shot. If one of them had pulled a pellet gun, they would have all been shot. It would not have been any different if they had chosen to confront a group of LEOs in the same manner. At some point a threat is a threat. All the discussion after the fact, and the inevitable legal trouble that will occur will not change the outcome.

By not carrying and/or choosing to stay uninvolved, you avoid that responsibility. You pass it along to someone else. You have that choice. On both sides of the question, this is not a decision that can be always be made without consequences. Ask Dr. William Petit.

ASM826