Pet Peeves, gun related

[OilyPablo]

Not much bugs me.

I guess one of the board members thinks I'm some kind of evil rifle guy when I bring my new fangled AK or AR to the club range. One day I was legally (you know club rules) firing my AR at the 50 yard berm and my brass was landing in a nice zone over at the edge of the first station in front of the 25 yard bullet trap (no centerfire rifles). Well the guy just goes beserk on me. Says I was firing my AR in the steel bullet trap. Won't believe a word I say. Ironically two older geezers said I wasn't, then he calmed down. What a clown. I love the place, but that guy is odd. I've never actually seen him shoot a gun in all the time I've been there.

 

[Arp32]

Arp32, ^^^ recite that last quote he tells you defy time it stovepipes or double feeds

Oh I already felt ok because earlier in the day I got to ask him, "what was that, I thought you said it wasn't possible for a Glock to jam?"

I wouldn't have said anything if he hasn't ragged on every gun I own...

 

[herrwalther]

Can't think of many pet peeves of my own that are firearm related. Haven't had a salesperson try to sell me a firearm that I knew wouldn't work for the purpose in mind. When you know more about certain firearms than the person selling it, those situations tend to be avoided. At one gun store the wife of the owner tried selling my girlfriend a Browning hi-power knock off when her grip is just large enough for J-frames and Bersas.

Another pet peeve is firearm manuals. There is so much red ink in them now about "Make sure the firearm is unloaded, pointed in safe direction etc etc" That if you try to find useful information like does it accept +p ammo or how do I take it apart. This was compounded when I was looking for a parts list to an older firearm I have and ran across the manual and it was only FOUR pages. That was including parts diagram, warnings, and warranty card.

 

[easyg]

She had not one idea about how to load the revolver, how to fire it, what its safety features were, not nothin!
She had not one clue. NOT ONE about any of the above. She didn't know what she had bought.

Don't get mad at the gun store salesman, he's a salesman, not the woman's personal firearms instructor.

This woman you're talking about is a complete idiot.
Who in this day and age, were information is so easily and readily accessible, goes out and buys ANYTHING without doing a little research first?!?!

Such people deserve what they get IMO.

 

[Agsalaska]

Don't get mad at the gun store salesman, he's a salesman, not the woman's personal firearms instructor.

This woman you're talking about is a complete idiot.
Who in this day and age, were information is so easily and readily accessible, goes out and buys ANYTHING without doing a little research first?!?!

Such people deserve what they get IMO.

Totally disagree. I said on the first page that my answer to the OP was the total lack of understanding what customer service means a general lack of appreciation for customers in general in the LGS's. This is a perfect example of that. He went for the sale with no appreciation for repeat business. Sell the gun. Good salesmanship and good, well run businesses, would ensure that the customer was getting what would serve them the best and also ensure they knew the basic workings of the item they were buying. Taking advantage of ignorant purchasers is foolish.

 

[Ed Ames]

Hmmm...So from the time the first shop opened up, until maybe 15, years ago, the way most people got information was:

1) listen to what their friends/family said,
2) listen to a retailer selling the product
3) figure it out on your own (which may include reading books/magazines, or not)

In the last 15 years some people (not everyone - I know people who even today have never used a computer or the internet) have added a 1a of "read what anonymous people online say", and a 2a of "read the crowdsourced and curated comments about the product that the retailer allows anonymous people to post", and now a 65 year old woman is an idiot because she didn't get that memo?

Anyone over about 50 has a total expectation that if they want to buy the best available (in stock at a retailer they are willing to go to) item for their needs they can go to a retailer that sells the type of item they need, explain their needs, and buy what the retailer suggests. Most of the time the strategy works just fine. Want to buy a tent? Go to REI, tell the employee what sort of use you'll put it to, and buy what they suggest. 99% chance you'll get a mainstream sensible tent for your application. Want a lawnmower? Do the same thing at a lawnmower dealer.

I don't personally follow that strategy because my needs/wants are very rarely mainstream.... But I know people who always do that and as far as I can tell it usually works quite well. Why? Because retailers usually understand that their value add, their share of what the customer is buying, is knowledge. A retailer who gives bad advice is short changing the customer and destroying the trust upon which retail is built.

Whether or not the 65+ year old woman buying her first gun was an idiot for not understanding that she could head over to thefiringline.com and ask questions, the retailer was self-destructively idiotic for helping to destroy the trust that is the only thing that keeps retail shops going.

 

[easyg]

The salesman selling a car should teach the buyer how to drive a car?

The salesman selling a rappelling harness should teach the buyer how to rappel?

The salesman selling an oven should teach the buyer how to cook?

The salesman selling a horse should teach the buyer how to maintain and care for the horse?



No, only a fool goes out and buys something that they know absolutely nothing about.

 

[easyg]

Anyone over about 50 has a total expectation that if they want to buy the best available (in stock at a retailer they are willing to go to) item for their needs they can go to a retailer that sells the type of item they need, explain their needs, and buy what the retailer suggests.

I don't know where you got this notion, but it's simply not true.
Most salesmen will associate "best" with "most expensive".
If you walk in to a store and say " I want to buy your very best tent", you will walk out with the most expensive tent, regardless of whether its really the best or not.

The typical sales associate does not know that much about the very products they sell, and it's been that way for a very long time.
There are exceptions, but they are few and far between.

 

[Ed Ames]

Where I got that impression is that it is what people do, and it works for them. There are usually several "most expensive" products. They have a most expensive car camping tent, a most expensive hiking tent, and so on. The salesperson wants to sell the most expensive maybe, but they are the idiot if they sell a 50lb car camping tent to someone who didn't know to mention they will be carrying it on their back.

As for teaching skills, no, the retailer doesn't need to teach the whole skill. The op wasn't griping about a salesperson not teaching the whole skill. He was griping about not driving any proper guidance and seemingly guiding the woman in the wrong direction.

When I bought my first motorcycle, the salesperson's first question was, "do you ride?" When I said, "Not yet," he went to a display they had set up and pulled a stack of brochures for rider safety courses, saying, "you should take one of these classes and come back."

When I bought my first guitar, the salesperson could spot that I didn't know how to play and handed me cards of several people who gave guitar lessons.

Every car I've ever bought new, the salesperson insisted on showing me where all the controls were.

The list goes on....

 

[hang fire]

velocette

Pet Peeves, gun related

Oh geeze, pretty large blanket coverage you are throwing out there, majority of old people are just old, not helpless basket cases.

My wife of 52 years is 72 years old, tell her she shouldn't have her 3" cylinder Judge. And I will lay you odds she knows just as much, if not more, about firearms than most gun owners on this forum.

 

[Ed Ames]

It really isn't about age or gender as far as I can tell. It's about ignorance. Your wife is knowledgeable and skilled. She didn't start that way. Imagine that she didn't know all that, and didn't have you or other friends/family to show her.

Anyway,

The judge is unlikely to be the best personal/home defense handgun for a person aged 65-114...many would argue it isn't an ideal defense weapon period.

 

[Shuler13]

The salesman selling a car should teach the buyer how to operate a car safely and discuss routine use and maintenance?
YES

The salesman selling a rappelling harness should teach the buyer how to use the rappelling harness safely and discuss routine use and maintenance ?
YES

The salesman selling an oven should teach the buyer how to use the oven safely and discuss routine use and maintenance?
YES

The salesman selling a horse should teach the buyer what the temperament of the horse is and what their feeding/care routines are?

YES

FIFY

People routinely buy tools and appliances and other goods for the first time with only minimal knowledge other than its most basic functions.

At one time or another I bought a washing machine, DVD player, a computer, a car and yes even a firearm with just the most basic knowledge on the item.

Companies spend tons of money to educate salesman on new products (medications, electronics, appliances, automobiles, etc) so salesmen can educate the consumer. That's a lot of what trade shows are about. Knowledge leads to the appreciation of value and increases the likeliness of a sale. How you educate your consumer can lead to repeat business.

Yes, it is absolutely the job of the salesman to ensure the buyer is educated on the safe use and maintenance of the wares they peddle. And it is not wrong for a naive consumer to expect that if they have a question about what they are shopping for, that a salesman can help them find their answer.

 

[hang fire]

+1



Also, the arrogant attitudes found in a lot of LGS's and in the industry in general. I think the firearms industry in general has very bad customer service skills. I don't think average LGS Clerks and even owners understand how valuable customers are. Or if they do they do not understand how to keep them.

In LGS I haunt, I have observed the owner and clerks. They are very attentive to real and potential new customers and engage them in conversation. I have also noted they very quickly are cognitive as to how much knowledge the customer has and treat them accordingly.
They take great pains to explain the basics and more to those in need of information. For customers like me, they fill out the forms while talking about shooting, hunting & etc..

Realizing all LGS are not like this one, but we all know they should be.

 

[Agsalaska]

The salesman selling a car should teach the buyer how to drive a car?

The salesman selling a rappelling harness should teach the buyer how to rappel?

The salesman selling an oven should teach the buyer how to cook?

The salesman selling a horse should teach the buyer how to maintain and care for the horse?



No, only a fool goes out and buys something that they know absolutely nothing about.

+1 to everything Shuler13 said above to the same post.

Also, whether or not the woman is a fool is besides the point. She is paying customer. Thats all that matters. The goal of a good salesperson with good sales skills, something I think is completely lacking in the industry, would be to make her a repeat customer.

Think of it this way. He could-

A. Sell her a judge and tell her absolutely nothing about it.

or

B. Sell her a more appropriate firearm, tell her a little bit about it, and offer her the most basic instruction.

So now she probably realizes that the gun was probably not the best fit for her. Do you think she will ever return to that store? Would it be far more probably that she returned to do business at that store if the salesman would have chosen option B instead?

Its a pretty basic principle.

 

[Agsalaska]

In LGS I haunt, I have observed the owner and clerks. They are very attentive to real and potential new customers and engage them in conversation. I have also noted they very quickly are cognitive as to how much knowledge the customer has and treat them accordingly.
They take great pains to explain the basics and more to those in need of information. For customers like me, they fill out the forms while talking about shooting, hunting & etc..

Realizing all LGS are not like this one, but we all know they should be.

Your lucky Hangfire. I agree there are some. I have a very good one that I visit every week as well. But there are not many. There are a lot more that would take the approach this guy took selling an older lady a Judge with zero instruction unconcerned about reputation and future business. And even more that would consider her the fool. At least that is my experience after visiting dozens of them in the three states I have lived in over the last 10 years.

 

[beatledog7]

Who's got a rational explanation for why salesman should equal teacher? To me, the roles are very different. Information about how to match a firearm to a need is easy to access, and a gun seller is under no obligation to provide advice.

Granted, a seller who does listen to a potential buyer and has the experience to read between the lines and guide that buyer into a proper choice is likely to develop a good following and repeat clientele. But that's often not what a counterperson gets paid to do.

Ultimately, a counterperson gets paid to do whatever his or her boss directs. Some stores push to maximize today's revenue line. Others seek to build a good long-term customer base and will sacrifice a little revenue today for a lot of revenue down the road. If you find a counterperson's behavior questionable, learn the boss's philosophy. There you'll find the explanation.

 

[Agsalaska]

Who's got a rational explanation for why salesman should equal teacher? To me, the roles are very different. Information about how to match a firearm to a need is easy to access, and a gun seller is under no obligation to provide advice.

-You answered your own question with the paragraph below

Granted, a seller who does listen to a potential buyer and has the experience to read between the lines and guide that buyer into a proper choice is likely to develop a good following and repeat clientele. But that's often not what a counterperson gets paid to do.

-And thats the problem with the entire industry IMHO. Why would you hire a counterperson to do anything else?

Ultimately, a counterperson gets paid to do whatever his or her boss directs. Some stores push to maximize today's revenue line. Others seek to build a good long-term customer base and will sacrifice a little revenue today for a lot of revenue down the road. If you find a counterperson's behavior questionable, learn the boss's philosophy. There you'll find the explanation.

-Agreed. I think the problem is always direction from the top.

!!!

 

[Ed Ames]

That one is easy.

Teaching is the art of conveying ideas to others.
Selling is an application of teaching where the idea is, "you want to buy what i'm selling - from me."

As far as why provide additional info beyond a price list...trust is a prerequisite of commerce. If you don't trust me, you are unlikely to give me money. Trust is a personal thing. It comes from contact and respect. If I don't respect you, I won't trust you. As a salesperson, you need to earn my trust. How do you pay for it? You could give me a cookie, but that gets expensive and isn't really very effective (though it is done).You can buy my trust with something free-to-you but potentially valuable to me. Knowledge is ideal. You can share it with everyone and still have as much as you started with. Being a teacher is a good way to build trust.

 

[beatledog7]

If Kyle the counterman works on commission and has a live one, what's gonna motivate him?

The answer is easy--Kyle recognizes the vulnerability of the buyer, and leverages that buyer's willingness to be led down the path. He easily persuades the buyer to pop for the high-dollar gun chambered in an expensive cartridge, a bunch of spare mags, a bedside vault, several boxes of stupid-priced "BG-Killer SD" ammo, a holster each for IWB and OWB, a new belt, etc.

Kyle doesn't care if that buyer ever fires a round or ever carries that pistol. He doesn't get paid to care.

 

[Agsalaska]

If Kyle the counterman works on commission and has a live one, what's gonna motivate him?

The answer is easy--Kyle recognizes the vulnerability of the buyer, and leverages that buyer's willingness to be led down the path. He easily persuades the buyer to pop for the high-dollar gun chambered in an expensive cartridge, a bunch of spare mags, a bedside vault, several boxes of stupid-priced "BG-Killer SD" ammo, a holster each for IWB and OWB, a new belt, etc.

Kyle doesn't care if that buyer ever fires a round or ever carries that pistol. He doesn't get paid to care.

Utter nonsense. Kyle needs to take some salesmanship classes so he understands how to really make commissions in sales. Because that thought process ain't how it works.

 

[Ed Ames]

The answer is easy...

And the customer gets home, and thinks, and talks to friends, and goes to a range where she meets the person who started this thread. If along the line she decides Kyle took her for a ride, she not only never buys there again, she tells all her friends to stay away from Kyle and the store where he works. The $100 difference between top-of-the-line right stuff and top-of-the-line whatever-kyle-can-sell costs the store thousands and Kyle hundreds.

Kyle, in your scenario, is an idiot.

 

[beatledog7]

Utter nonsense. Kyle needs to take some salesmanship classes so he understands how to really make commissions in sales. Because that thought process ain't how it works.

Not how it should work, I agree. But too often that's how it does work. There are plenty of sales courses that teach "profit maximization" through duping the customer rather than through developing enduring trust. Some such courses even teach salespeople to outright lie in the interest of posting a few extra revenue dollars in the company's ledger.

My example illustrates the mindset of a lot of salespeople, especially those who have no long-term sales career aspirations and are just in it to earn some money quick. If you've never dealt with such a person, you've been very, very fortunate.

My Kyle is not an idealist and doesn't look past his next pay day. He will be doing the same thing in a hardware store next month.

 

[Agsalaska]

Not how it should work, I agree. But too often that's how it does work. There are plenty of sales courses that teach "profit maximization" through duping the customer rather than through developing enduring trust. Some such courses even teach salespeople to outright lie in the interest of posting a few extra revenue dollars in the company's ledger.

Not any credible ones. At least not many credible ones today. Very few if any successful companies with storefront environments would train that way. But I do agree that is too often how it works.

My example illustrates the mindset of a lot of salespeople, especially those who have no long-term sales career aspirations and are just in it to earn some money quick. If you've never dealt with such a person, you've been very, very fortunate.

Deal with them all the time. You can find them in a lot of LGS.

My Kyle is not an idealist and doesn't look past his next pay day. He will be doing the same thing in a hardware store next month.

This is the responsibility of the owner of the business. You can hire hourly personnel and train them to understand these basic concepts. But then you have to set standards and hold your people accountable to them. That can be difficult for owners to do.

!!!

 

[Ed Ames]

I've encountered - but not dealt with - those people. That's the point. They are a type, and they hurt the businesses and themselves.

 

[Deer_Freak]

You are going to meet people who believe in a service oriented business. They help their customers find the right tool for the job. Then you have people that just want to make money. They think it's funny when they sell the customer something useless. Those people end up selling scrap or running a pawn shop.

Regardless, the guy who runs a service oriented business will do something he enjoys until the day he dies. The just sell it guy will never enjoy his job. We all have heard the saying "You reap what you sow."