Well, you're not the first person to say something similar. Do you have anything to back that up, other than opinion? How about statistics? I'm pretty sure high-power rifles with hunting rounds, have a higher percentage of lethality.
John
Myth of the long-gun for home defense
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Well, you're not the first person to say something similar. Do you have anything to back that up, other than opinion? How about statistics? I'm pretty sure high-power rifles with hunting rounds, have a higher percentage of lethality.
John
I agree with the handgun being the primary home defense weapon.
Its nice to have 2 big dogs that notice everything that moves or breaths. If the dogs give you away its the (30) 40 S&W rounds you need to face. If you harm the dogs the glock gets me to my AR, then your in trouble.
Its nice to have 2 big dogs that notice everything that moves or breaths. If the dogs give you away its the (30) 40 S&W rounds you need to face. If you harm the dogs the glock gets me to my AR, then your in trouble.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
The reality is that VERY few people know how to handle a longun in CQB, especially at night.
The reality is that anyone who DOES know how to handle ANY firearm in "CQB" is not likely to eagerly volunteer to do it solo, even in their own home. It's a Bad Plan. Get used to the idea already.
Your Primary Consideration is to see to it that no one can get into your house without your knowing for sure and certain that you have a problem on your hands. Period. We go over and over how to harden your home's perimeter here. THAT is the first consideration- to do your best to make your house fail the 'victim selection' test by making it uninviting to thugs. No hiding places among landscaping, trees or shrubbery; motion activated lighting and alert sensors outside; secure doors and windows with locks and alarms that are in use; dogs... you know the drill by now. If not, some homework is definitely indicated LONG before we get around to arguing about which firearm to grab.
So the cat knocks over something in the living room and the noise wakes you up. You should be able to be comfortably sure that's what the noise was. If you cannot be reasonably sure, then you have failed at your Primary Consideration. Did you do a walkaround before bedtime and check all the doors and windows? Did you set the alarm system? Is the dog inside? Did you USE all the advantages you have as homeowner/resident in the first place, so you can get a comfortable, uninterrupted night's sleep? No? Then WHY are we obsessing over what gun to grab, when we haven't even taken care of the basics yet?
Have you looked into taking the NRA's Personal Protection In The Home Class? Read the text? Seen the DVD of the classroom portion of the class?
Have you formulated a home defense plan?
Have you practiced/drilled/rehearsed it with your family so they know what to do too? How about your other family emergency plans, like fire drills, evacuation drills, etc?
Let's begin to think about starting with FIRST THINGS FIRST here, please. Otherwise threads like this are going to begin to have pretty short life spans here. This endless debate over "which gun" when not even lip service is paid to more basic issues is getting tiresome.
lpl
The reality is that anyone who DOES know how to handle ANY firearm in "CQB" is not likely to eagerly volunteer to do it solo, even in their own home. It's a Bad Plan. Get used to the idea already.
Your Primary Consideration is to see to it that no one can get into your house without your knowing for sure and certain that you have a problem on your hands. Period. We go over and over how to harden your home's perimeter here. THAT is the first consideration- to do your best to make your house fail the 'victim selection' test by making it uninviting to thugs. No hiding places among landscaping, trees or shrubbery; motion activated lighting and alert sensors outside; secure doors and windows with locks and alarms that are in use; dogs... you know the drill by now. If not, some homework is definitely indicated LONG before we get around to arguing about which firearm to grab.
So the cat knocks over something in the living room and the noise wakes you up. You should be able to be comfortably sure that's what the noise was. If you cannot be reasonably sure, then you have failed at your Primary Consideration. Did you do a walkaround before bedtime and check all the doors and windows? Did you set the alarm system? Is the dog inside? Did you USE all the advantages you have as homeowner/resident in the first place, so you can get a comfortable, uninterrupted night's sleep? No? Then WHY are we obsessing over what gun to grab, when we haven't even taken care of the basics yet?
Have you looked into taking the NRA's Personal Protection In The Home Class? Read the text? Seen the DVD of the classroom portion of the class?
Have you formulated a home defense plan?
Have you practiced/drilled/rehearsed it with your family so they know what to do too? How about your other family emergency plans, like fire drills, evacuation drills, etc?
Let's begin to think about starting with FIRST THINGS FIRST here, please. Otherwise threads like this are going to begin to have pretty short life spans here. This endless debate over "which gun" when not even lip service is paid to more basic issues is getting tiresome.
lpl
Lee, your points are very salient. Especially the idea of taking away as much ambiguity as possible.
On the other hand, I think the responses in this thread have been respectful and have been handled with honest debate sans bickering. You're certainly within your rights as a moderator to close threads. My personal opinion is that the discussion has been fair and has been pretty interesting.
Marlin 45 carbine
Member
there are some people that just have trouble with a pistol of any chambering. for them a short bbl rifle even a .22LR semi-auto is going to be a good option, or a short shotty.
I'm failry accomplished w/a pistol, I keep my Makarov in a spare holster velcro taped to bed post, but have a SXS 'Coach' 12ga Mag leaning in near corner by nite-lite and my Marlin Camp .45acp w/10 rd mag loaded w/+P hanging on wall hook if needed.
myself I grab the SXS and stick the Mak in waistband.
I'm failry accomplished w/a pistol, I keep my Makarov in a spare holster velcro taped to bed post, but have a SXS 'Coach' 12ga Mag leaning in near corner by nite-lite and my Marlin Camp .45acp w/10 rd mag loaded w/+P hanging on wall hook if needed.
myself I grab the SXS and stick the Mak in waistband.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Yes and no. It depends on things such as the length of the long gun and the configuration of the house for cornering. Until I got a shorter stock on my shotgun, I could not pie two of the critical corners in my home with the shotgun properly shouldered, but could easily with a handgun. So yeah, it was definitely not a training issue, but a gun/home construction issue.
Well that is a nice sentiment to have BEFORE there is a problem. Of course, there is the additional problem of those who gain entry loudly and violently knowing full well you will know they are there. Not everyone tries to sneak into a home.
What is the Primary Consideration AFTER you have a problem? It isn't seeing to it that no one can get into your house without your knowing for sure and certain that you have a problem on your hands. Period.
Right we need to all really harden our homes and then not worry about what happens with a home intruder because we know our homes are already hardened? Sorry, FIRST THINGS FIRST doesn't always make sense once they have become moot and there is a problem. Once the perimeter is breeched, you still have to deal with the intruder.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
matheath,
Just down the page, we have http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=451435 - another current thread on 'which gun for hd?' Your thread got moved here, so that's no worry. But we need to up the ante a little, and work on what can really make a difference. After all, when it's time to go to guns, the situation has deteriorated pretty far and it's too late for prevention to do any good. But we still want to concentrate on prevention first and foremost, to the extent that is reasonable, because the best way to win a gunfight is still not to have it in the first place.
DNS,
Please see the above. You don't have a home invasion problem until you have a home invasion. If you don't have a home invasion, you have already solved the problem. If you have someone kick in your door in spite of your best efforts at making that difficult to do, you should at least know that someone is breaking in, and have time to react to the situation.
The alternative might be waking up with a knife at your throat or a pistol muzzle in your ear because your house is so easy to get into, someone just walked in without disturbing your beauty sleep. What good is a gun going to do you then?
"First things" will always be first. First rule of gunfighting is still, "Have a gun," right? Second rule is still, "When all else fails, look cool," right? At least Louis Awerbuck said it was in class last Thursday, so I suppose it must still be true. He said the same thing year before last, anyway. And I don't think Louis would lie.
lpl
Just down the page, we have http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=451435 - another current thread on 'which gun for hd?' Your thread got moved here, so that's no worry. But we need to up the ante a little, and work on what can really make a difference. After all, when it's time to go to guns, the situation has deteriorated pretty far and it's too late for prevention to do any good. But we still want to concentrate on prevention first and foremost, to the extent that is reasonable, because the best way to win a gunfight is still not to have it in the first place.
DNS,
Please see the above. You don't have a home invasion problem until you have a home invasion. If you don't have a home invasion, you have already solved the problem. If you have someone kick in your door in spite of your best efforts at making that difficult to do, you should at least know that someone is breaking in, and have time to react to the situation.
The alternative might be waking up with a knife at your throat or a pistol muzzle in your ear because your house is so easy to get into, someone just walked in without disturbing your beauty sleep. What good is a gun going to do you then?
"First things" will always be first. First rule of gunfighting is still, "Have a gun," right? Second rule is still, "When all else fails, look cool," right? At least Louis Awerbuck said it was in class last Thursday, so I suppose it must still be true. He said the same thing year before last, anyway. And I don't think Louis would lie.
lpl
What Lee said here bears repeating:
Rule number one of LE/.mil house clearing: Never less than 2 men per room. You're already starting off behind the ball if you're alone.
But, mission drives the gear train, not the other way around. If you look at the majority of what LE entry teams are using you'll notice a trend. Shotguns are more and more being relegated to breeching roles and interior work is being done with ARs. When you see teams making this switch en masse, thats what the po-leece call a 'clue'.
For round accountability, lethality and lack of overpenetration, the .223/5.56 rules the roost at phone booth distances.
Rule number one of LE/.mil house clearing: Never less than 2 men per room. You're already starting off behind the ball if you're alone.
But, mission drives the gear train, not the other way around. If you look at the majority of what LE entry teams are using you'll notice a trend. Shotguns are more and more being relegated to breeching roles and interior work is being done with ARs. When you see teams making this switch en masse, thats what the po-leece call a 'clue'.
For round accountability, lethality and lack of overpenetration, the .223/5.56 rules the roost at phone booth distances.
I agree that the right tool should be chosen for a task. Checking on sounds.... I'd use a handgun. Holing up behind the bed, 12 gauge for me. Unless, you live out in the sticks and have plenty of land to defend, a rifle probably would not come into play for me.
Good point.
Good point.
Deanimator
Member
A long gun is pretty much useless in my home. I've got a shotgun and an AR, but they stay in the safe. I rely upon whatever handgun I carried that day.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Well let's be honest here. That plays out fine in LE cases, but in your own home in the middle of the night with kids in the other room that's out the window.
You WILL be alone and you WILL clear rooms. It's dangerous, absolutely. But you WILL do it when your family is in the house and you think they are in danger.
That's why the gun doesn't matter as much as training/practice.
Simply saying "don't clear a house alone" isn't real life unfortunately. If it gets to that point you have no choice.
Deanimator
Member
Not to mention the fact that for some of us, even if we hid under the bed and called the cops every time we heard a noise, we'd have to "clear" the house in order to get to the ONLY door to let the cops in.
I'm thinking that after the second time the cops kicked in your apartment door (and maybe outside door) to determine that the cat knocked a vase off of a shelf, there wouldn't BE a third time, whether it's the cat or the Manson gang.
Nickjc
Member
Hi John,
This is ONLY from what I have read and have seen....
1) It has been said about military rifles that the Germans Built a hunting rifle...the Americans a target rifle and the brits a true battle rifle...all from 8mm - 30.06-303....
2) In WW1 if an American was found to be carrying a trench gun (shotgun) in the tight confines of a trench they were shot onsite if captured. I beleive the German also filed a 'grievance' of sorts due to the lethality of the shotgun in close quarters.
I *think* that is some pretty substantial data to go by.....
Also my 12g Pump makes some pretty NASTY holes to targets up close...heck some it even obliterates.
Best thing I have read in a long time.....
If they are already in the home without you being aware of it you have already failed in your job.
When approaching physical security, whether commercially, or, residentially.
Look for all the weak links in the chain. Security is a multi leveled approach and NOT one particular piece will save you or provide the proper protection.
Your as safe as the weakest link in the chain.
I for one, hope to NEVER have to walk my house with my firearm (of any type) in the dark of the night alone with my family upstairs.
If I have to, I have failed in my job to provide the proper protection to my home prior to the incident.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Actually that was because the trench guns had a tendancy to NOT kill their target, just maim very badly.
The Kaiser protested this use as a violation of the Hague Convention of 1907 which had a clause against:
Nickjc
Member
Thank you for the clarification.....
DammitBoy
Member
I carry an 870 with an 18" barrel and a 7 round tube with a pistol grip, if that doesn't cut it - I'll always have my .45 on my hip.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Simply saying "don't clear a house alone" isn't real life unfortunately. If it gets to that point you have no choice.
From the other current thread on what gun to grab in case of a home invasion, please see the post at http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5631924&postcount=23 .
What we are not going to do is turn this thread or any other into a factory outlet for Bicker and Bicker of Beverly Hills. Nattering nabobbery went out with Spiro Agnew, and it isn't coming back into style.
IF you have to move through your house in an emergency to secure family members- then yes, you do in fact need to move through your house to get to them. Is it a good idea otherwise? No. Is this "house clearing?" No, it's moving.
If you cannot tell with reasonable certainty whether the noise you heard was the cat knocking something over or not, you have bigger problems than deciding which gun to grab. If you are so unsure of your situation as to be on the phone with the local gendarmes at every odd noise in your house, you probably deserve the 'crank' label they will put on your file. We are supposed to be grownups here. We are supposed to be working under a stricture regarding adherence to reality here. And we will...
lpl
From the other current thread on what gun to grab in case of a home invasion, please see the post at http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5631924&postcount=23 .
What we are not going to do is turn this thread or any other into a factory outlet for Bicker and Bicker of Beverly Hills. Nattering nabobbery went out with Spiro Agnew, and it isn't coming back into style.
IF you have to move through your house in an emergency to secure family members- then yes, you do in fact need to move through your house to get to them. Is it a good idea otherwise? No. Is this "house clearing?" No, it's moving.
If you cannot tell with reasonable certainty whether the noise you heard was the cat knocking something over or not, you have bigger problems than deciding which gun to grab. If you are so unsure of your situation as to be on the phone with the local gendarmes at every odd noise in your house, you probably deserve the 'crank' label they will put on your file. We are supposed to be grownups here. We are supposed to be working under a stricture regarding adherence to reality here. And we will...
lpl
Kingcreek
Member
Amen Brother Lee Lapin!
(these threads always get all caught up in the wrong stuff.)
FLORIDA KEVIN
Member
Hmm ! The only rifle I own is a .22 rimfire ! First choice is my everyday carry gun a glock 30 in .45 acp ,then would be my SRH in .454 casull ! I plan on picking up a 12 gauge soon !I am considering a rifled barrel as I believe that it will make the pattern open up faster in shorter(inside the house ) distance !
DKA
Member
I partially agree, but when someone is outside your door, trying to get in, you don't know whether there is 1, 2, or 4. Because you don't know how many, I trust my 870 Wingmaster with an 18 1/2" Barrel. If it's someone in the house already, will investigate with my S&W 686. Revolvers are almost fool proof, not saying that I don't like semi's, but confidence is greater in Revolver.
catspa
Member
Lee Lapin:Nattering nabobbery went out with Spiro Agnew, and it isn't coming back into style.
I find it necessary to respectfully disagree. Have you heard anything from Nancy Pelosi lately?
Parker
I find it necessary to respectfully disagree. Have you heard anything from Nancy Pelosi lately?
Parker
John makes a valid point. While I have absolutely no desire to be shot with a 12 gauge, I am also unaware that buckshot would be less damaging to my person than a .45 to the centre mass. And I'm confident that a .338 WM would probably beat either one.
Since the Springfield M1903 was essentially a minor variation on the German M1898 (resulting in court-ordered royalty payments to Mauser in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, a lot of money in the early 20th century), I would rephase the above to read:
The Germans began WW1 with a hunting rifle, the Canadians with a target rifle, and the British with a battle rifle.
There's an article on this in the latest issue of shooting times. The author of that article prefers a revolver w/ moon clips. I don't think that's a bad choice but I guess there's a personal preference factor too. Someone who is recoil sensitive might not be able to practice enough with a large caliber revolver to be confident with it. Same goes for shotguns too. Different strokes for different folks.
I always have my .45 handy so that would be the first thing to come out no matter what. If I had a few extra seconds to react I might be able to holster my .45 and grab a gun that would be better for the particular situation like a shotgun or EBR. Who knows what will happen. It's a good feeling to know that you are well prepared. Or at least as prepared as you can reasonably be.
I always have my .45 handy so that would be the first thing to come out no matter what. If I had a few extra seconds to react I might be able to holster my .45 and grab a gun that would be better for the particular situation like a shotgun or EBR. Who knows what will happen. It's a good feeling to know that you are well prepared. Or at least as prepared as you can reasonably be.
That's incredible. I suppose I should do a bit more hunting before I make a call on that one, but if i had to take one to the chest from 5-10 yards, I think it would be anything but the 12 gauge...the .338 WM would probably be the second to last choice...
Have you guys ever heard of someone taking buckshot to the chest cavity up close and not going down instantly?
As for the fact that people are fixated on guns when they think home defense, maybe some of the moderators should take the lead and point us in more sensible directions?
LibShooter
Member
The posts in this thread make one point: "There is no such thing as THE best firearm for self defense."
Beside our bed is an M1 Carbine, a .45ACP and (by the Mrs.) a 12 guage SxS. Is it because I'm afraid we'll be attacked by a squad of meth-enhanced zombies and need all that firepower? Nope, those three firearms are handy for different situations.
If I wake up to wildly barking dogs and breaking glass, I'm grabbing the rifle, she's grabbing the shotgun and the phone.
If the doorbell wakes me and a glance out the window shows an unknown car with headlights on, I'll go to the door with the .45 in my back pocket.
Having only one tool could force you to face different problems with the same response. They say "If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."
Beside our bed is an M1 Carbine, a .45ACP and (by the Mrs.) a 12 guage SxS. Is it because I'm afraid we'll be attacked by a squad of meth-enhanced zombies and need all that firepower? Nope, those three firearms are handy for different situations.
If I wake up to wildly barking dogs and breaking glass, I'm grabbing the rifle, she's grabbing the shotgun and the phone.
If the doorbell wakes me and a glance out the window shows an unknown car with headlights on, I'll go to the door with the .45 in my back pocket.
Having only one tool could force you to face different problems with the same response. They say "If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."
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