Investigating bumps in the night: long gun or handgun?

[B yond]

Professionals choose long guns virtually every time they know they are going into a fight for good reason.

I think this is why we are disagreeing. My argument is geared towards non-professionals investigating strange sounds that may, but probably will not, lead to a confrontation. I don't think any non-professional should willingly walk into a fight with either type of weapon (under most circumstances), and professionals probably shouldn't do it without backup.

Anyway, I'm not trying to prove my point, merely to discuss it. I haven't had much LE training, and only slightly more training in combatives. I've had no training whatsoever in long gun retention, but some in handgun retention. My view may be skewed.

Those who recommend the use of long guns in this scenario tend to do so with great conviction. Feeling fairly secure in my own view, I'm wondering if I've missed something supporting either argument, which is what I'm hoping to learn from this discussion.

 

[30mag]

hmm... 12-gauge + 18" barrel + bayonet = dead BG.
I think I'd carry my pistol as a backup...


On the other hand, if I were actually preparing for this scenario, I'd be packing a largish rock and a handgun.
When I met him, I'd chuck the rock at him (or he would grab it out of my hands) and I would draw the pistol...

 

[KBintheSLC]

I have one of each... 10mm Glock 20 full of 165g Golden Sabers, and a 12ga Remmy 870 Express about 6 feet away. As for clearing the house, I might just grab the G20 for a bump in the night... if it sounds like my door is being kicked down, its the 870 in hand full of buckshot.
The shotgun can also be deployed very close to the body... when coming around a corner, I bring the gun down to my hip and slightly back so the muzzle does not protrude too far in front of my body. If I am surprised by an attacker around a corner, they can expect a belly or groin full of buckshot post haste.

 

[Todd A]

I am not a profesional and the last time Uncle Sam signed my paycheck was close to 20 years ago.

Still a shotgun is my choice for HD. Look at it this way,I have two hands on my weapon, the BG is on the wrong end of it. I can pull the trigger, lunge forward striking him with the muzzle,pull backward , or butt stroke him.

Or a combination of all of the above very rapidly. This isn't the movies or a you tube clip by a "martial artist". No pre-arranged movements or a script.


If you have a mind to and a willing partner try it yourself. A baseball bat or a broomstick cut to length will do.Hold it like it was a shotgun and have them try to take it away. Anytime the muzzel crosses his body,you win.

Not a realistic training aid,but a quick way to see the basic principles.
You will see it is not harder to retain than a handgun.

I would suggest you don't do full power butt strokes ,unless you don't like your partner very much.

 

[mpmarty]

XD45 full size in bedside drawer. Mossy 12ga w/ #4 buck leans against the headboard. Fenix 240 lumen light on top of bedside table. Saiga 7.62 X 51 with full 20 round mag hangs over bedroom door. Perimeter alarms go off, dogs bark, I assess threat and chose appropriate weapon accordingly. Whats all the fuss about?

 

[wrs840]

My tactics trainer advocated handgun. Since I'm right handed, the retention position I learned for this situation is to advance with the weapon in close to my chest, pointed about 30 degrees to the left, and pointed down at the floor about four feet in front of me. The left hand is loosely curled under the gun, with the third (fist) knuckle of the index finger pretty tightly up against the crotch of the barrel lug and the trigger guard.

This position is very difficult for the BG to disarm you from, and easy to fire from in a close confrontation (with a simple twist to the right, raise of the barrel and pull of the trigger) from what is still a very controlled (and hard to interfere-with) position.

Heavy hollowpoint 38+P, of course, at a minimum. .45 Preferred.

My .02

Les

 

[bensdad]

Get a dog and make it part of the family. They can usually discern between important "bumps in the night" and the house settling. The ghost of Jeff Cooper could inhabit the body of Chuch Norris, and that supernatural being would still know better than to do a house clearing w/o help.

 

[chuckusaret]

Grab my shotgun(26"long) and XD40, check that wife is in the bed, punch the silent alarm remote and wait for the cops. If bad guy enters bedroom take necessary action with shotgun. Wait for cops.

 

[expvideo]

You forget my friend, that it's YOUR point that needs to be proven. I just offered you a chance to prove to everyone that it's likely that someone could hang on the the muzzle of a center fire rifle or shotgun and fight for control while it's being fired. There is nothing wrong with pointing out absurdity with more absurdity. I simply challenged you to prove your point, which you seem unable or unwilling to do.

Jeff, if you ever make it out to WA state, I'll take you up on the offer. I really think it's easier to take a rifle from someone than it is to take a pistol. I think that even with a round fired, the rifle would still be easier to take.

I could be wrong, and I'd love the opportunity to find out which one of us is.

ETA:
Not trying to chest-thump or anything. I just disagree and I'm always game to prove something one way or the other.

 

[Kleanbore]

Handgun or long gun to check a noise? The only ways that either one would safely serve you is (1) if it turns out that there is no one there or (2) you happen to surprise a single, compliant, unarmed intruder.

Bensdad puts it well:

The ghost of Jeff Cooper could inhabit the body of Chuch Norris, and that supernatural being would still know better than to do a house clearing w/o help.

In post 24, Fiddletown explains why:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5179207&postcount=24

I don't have the benefit of Fiddletown's professional tactical training, but I will take one excerpt...

If you go looking, and there is indeed a BG there, you will be at an extreme tactical disadvantage. You can easily be ambushed or flanked.

...and add to it: You have the obligation, upon encountering anyone in your house, to first ascertain that he or she is not a family member, relative, friend of a family member, neighbor, or someone who has inadvertently entered your house. One or more armed criminal intruders, on the other hand, is likely to shoot on sight, possibly from more than one direction, before you can get off a shot.

Fiddletown's post (24) is one of several educated inputs that have been posted on this forum on this subject. Everyone should read it and heed it.

One may feel like a well-equipped, trained NCIS agent as he leaves the bedroom armed, but he is in fact very vulnerable, and that feeling will dissipate very quickly when violence erupts.

It's all downside, no upside. Listen, let your dog listen, and if it seems that trouble is in the castle, arm yourself, stay put, and call for help.

 

[Deanimator]

It's ENTIRELY dependent upon the actual physical configuration of your home.

My home is wholely inappropriate for using a long gun for that purpose. I might as well be carrying a scythe.

In a house with large rooms and wide hallways, it might be entirely appropriate. That ain't MY place.

It depends entirely on YOUR situation.

 

[psyopspec]

Scenario C:
You train on retaining your preferential weapons system.

One has to wonder how many of those advocating the pistol have ever even fired one from the retention position with live ammo, or for those disparaging the use of the long gun, how many have (at the very least) taken a rubber duck to do a dry run as both the homeowner and the bad guy. IMO the pistol has an advantage in size, but if you do a dry run with both and get a friend to ambush you, and train in retention with both, then figure in the massive gain in firepower, it's hard not to go with a long gun.

Since it is night time, you'll probably want a flashlight in one hand, so having one hand free for the handgun makes more sense. I guess you could use a weapon-mounted flashlight though or carry with a sling.

Depending on where you live, you might not have to worry about that. In the urban environment I'm in I still get enough ambient light even when it's cloudy with no moon. That's something else that's worth practicing though - know how to move around the place you live in the dark. Know the creaks of the stairs and doors, and how to get around them. It's knowledge that can let your SO sleep while you get up for a glass of water in the middle of the night, and it may come in handy in the scenario at hand.

 

[Deanimator]

Get a dog and make it part of the family. They can usually discern between important "bumps in the night" and the house settling.

Many of us are either not allowed to own dogs, or it would not be humane for us to own dogs in our present circumstances. I fall into both categories.

The ghost of Jeff Cooper could inhabit the body of Chuch Norris, and that supernatural being would still know better than to do a house clearing w/o help.

House CLEARING is neutralizing people whom you KNOW to be there. How do you know IF there's anything to "clear"? You have to get up and look, DON'T you?

The alternative is to lock yourself in your bedroom and call the police EVERY time you hear an unidentified noise. That's not just stupid, it pretty much guarantees you'll get crappy police response when you NEED it. I had a shelf in a bookcase collapse in the middle of the night. Do you suggest that instead of getting my Springfield ballgun and going to see what the noise was, I should instead have locked myself in my bedroom and called the police? Considering that I couldn't let the police in without not just exiting my bedroom, but the apartment itself, how exactly would that work?

Wanting to hunt down the bad guys is one extreme. Cowering in fear without even knowing IF there are bad guys is just as extreme.

 

[wrs840]

...Wanting to hunt down the bad guys is one extreme. Cowering in fear without even knowing IF there are bad guys is just as extreme.

Great post, great point. There has to be a balance.

And,

(1) I don't WANT a dog in the house.

(2) In ten years at the current residence, high wind has set off the alarm in the middle of the night at least twice, and an ironing board collapsing at three am did it another time (glass-break detector).

I'm in a rural area, and calling the Sheriff patrol under any of these circumstances would have wasted their time and earned me a chicken-little reputation. I HAD to man up and go confront the ironing board alone...

Les

 

[mbt2001]

Investigating a bump in the night is something I have down a few times. Keep your gun in front of you, move through your house, mind corners and ensure the space in front of you is free of tango's before you check your six.

Investigating a noise is different than CLEARING a house.

Investigate noises all you want.

BUT when you come home from work and your front door is ajar, call the police. Don't proceed into the house and CLEAR it.

A friend of mine was actually driving down his street when he saw a man go INTO HIS HOUSE after giving the door what looked like a good kick.

He called the police, they caught the dude. My friend did have a gun in the car.

 

[mljdeckard]

I would never clear if I didn't have to, but if the intruder might be between me and my kids, I won't wait.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...How do you know IF there's anything to "clear"? You have to get up and look, DON'T you?...

There's a lot you can figure out by sitting still for a bit and listening.

...I'm in a rural area, and calling the Sheriff patrol under any of these circumstances would have wasted their time and earned me a chicken-little reputation....

Very true, but let's also not lose sight of the simple reality that --

* If you grab your gun and go investigate a noise; and

* If there is a BG, or more than one BG; and

* If he, or they, are willing to engage you;

* Then the odds are overwhelming that you will lose (and if you have family in the house, you will leave them unprotected).

So, how do you want to play it? Your call.

 

[wrs840]

There's a lot you can figure out by sitting still for a bit and listening.

Why would you assume that's not part of the process? I'm guessing no one is advocating blowing a bugle and charging headlong into the fray.

* Then the odds are overwhelming that you will lose...

How do you figure that? Odds are overwhelming that a break-in at my place will be a local sh**sack kid or two. They're poorly armed if at all, in a strange place, and I negotiate my premises in the dark pretty well (quietly, with my ears open). Advantage me.

The odds that a tactically-trained hit squad are going to break my door down are about zero.

Les

 

[dacavasi]

There are alot of variables to account for when developing a home defense strategy. In my lifetime I've had to defend my home on two occasions against BGs (I was a jeweler who lived in Detroit). In both cases, multiple BGs chose to enter the house by breaking down the front door. I was awake and alert in both cases. Case #1: My Model 12 with #6 shot blew the hand and jaw off of the first guy through the door. When the others saw body parts spraying through the room, they couldn't leave fast enough, and my second round caught another perp in the thighs. Guess what? The guy who caught it from about 6 feet away in the hand/face actually ran about one block away before collapsing; the guy who got it in the legs took off like a jackrabbit and his buddies got him to the hospital in time. In the second incident, I was able to get to my Colt 1911 just as the first guy was coming through the door with his 9mm. My first shot caught him in the stomach, and the second hit his head while he was on his way down. His buddies decided they didn't want to wait around, especially when I came after them outside the house as they were running down the street into the night (bad choice on my part but I was in reaction mode at that point). So what's my point? You prepare yourself mentally for a variety of scenarios, and hope they never happen. If they do, you rely on your instincts, training, and whatever weapon you feel most comfortable will do the job. In lieu of the latter, you rely on whatever is available. One should avoid a HTH situation at all costs, regardless whether you're carrying a long gun or pistol. The BG should never be allowed to get that close.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...How do you figure that? Odds are overwhelming that a break-in at my place will be a local sh**sack kid or two. They're poorly armed if at all, in a strange place, and I negotiate my premises in the dark pretty well (quietly, with my ears open). Advantage me....

No, advantage not you. The guy you're looking for always has the advantage. No matter how quiet you might be, he will know you're coming, and he will be in a position to wait and ambush you. Ask anyone who's been through force-on-force training in a shoot house. Or get one of your buddies and give it a try.

But, it's your house and your life.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Massad Ayoob tells a story about the National Tactical Invitational, an annual competition in which some 130 of the top shooters and firearm trainers participate by invitation only. One of the events is a force-on-force exercise using simunitions in which the competitor must clear a house against a single "BG." According to Mas during the first six years of the NTI, one, and only one, competitor got through one of those six NTIs without being judged killed, and he was head of NASA security firearms training at the time. And one, and only one, made it through the seventh year. The tactical advantage of the ensconced adversary is just too great. And remember, these competitors were highly skilled, highly trained fighters.

To be fair, the Practitioners coming through didn't know the layout of the houses. We built them, we know them. But unless you get to call in arty or air strikes, the advantage generally goes to the armed person who sits and waits for the other armed person to come to them. Lots of good training, superior numbers and lady fortune can tip the scales to the aggressor, but even then its not without great peril.


And just a point of clarification - the N.T.I. isn't a competition. The question has been often asked, "what is the N.T.I.?" It depends. For the Practitioner, it's a test. A test of his skills - both gun and social skills, his training, his chosen equipment and his familiarity with it, and how well all those things have prepared him to deal with violence as it is offered to him.

For those involved with running it, it's a laboratory.

 

[mpmarty]

Very true, but let's also not lose sight of the simple reality that --

* If you grab your gun and go investigate a noise; and

* If there is a BG, or more than one BG; and

* If he, or they, are willing to engage you;

* Then the odds are overwhelming that you will lose (and if you have family in the house, you will leave them unprotected).

So, how do you want to play it? Your call.

You're over simplifying here. Everyone has a different situation.

1. If I called the cops I would expect a code three response time of close to one hour. I'm not going there thanks.
2. In all these scenarios it is assumed that someone or something is inside your home. For me, that's way too late. My perimeter alarms and dogs go off when the intruder(s) are over a quarter of a mile distant from my residence. Nobody gets inside alive. If resistance is offered, nobody survives outside either. The wife and I have overlapping fields of fire and my Dobies are quite agressive. On their way out, they have half a mile of mountain dirt and gravel twisties to negotiate and my brother in law who lives at the bottom of the hill will trap and detain any survivors, as I would respond to shots fired at his location also.

Bottom line, trespass with criminal intent on our mountain and you have shoved a stick into a very large hornets nest.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...My perimeter alarms and dogs go off when the intruder(s) are over a quarter of a mile distant from my residence. Nobody gets inside alive. If resistance is offered, nobody survives outside either. The wife and I have overlapping fields of fire and my Dobies are quite agressive...

Well, good luck. The dogs will be a big help. But have a look at http://cbs11tv.com/local/watauga.sta....2.851147.html and BullfrogKen's post #46,above.

...unless you get to call in arty or air strikes, the advantage generally goes to the armed person who sits and waits for the other armed person to come to them. Lots of good training, superior numbers and lady fortune can tip the scales to the aggressor, but even then its not without great peril....

 

[mavracer]

I'm going to refer this question to Harley(my 75# boxer) he'll tell me weather I need to call police and get the shotgun or just grab the 1911 and the flashlight.

 

[Kleanbore]

From B yond:

My argument is geared towards non-professionals investigating strange sounds that may, but probably will not, lead to a confrontation. I don't think any non-professional should willingly walk into a fight with either type of weapon (under most circumstances), and professionals probably shouldn't do it without backup.

Think about that again. If you have gone looking with a gun and it turns out that there is in fact an armed intruder in the house, you have willingly walked into a fight...

From Deanimator:

How do you know IF there's anything to "clear"? You have to get up and look, DON'T you?

I don't think so. I can listen, and if the sound was no more threatening than a rumble in the ice-maker or a book or broom falling, and if it does not recur, I think I can go to bed without worry. If it does recur, and I can identify it as an unlatched screen door blowing in the wind, I can get up without measurable risk. But if I do get up and look, I had doggone well better hope there isn't an armed criminal in the house. So if what I hear sounds like someone moving around and handling things, and if it continues, I will arm myself, call, and stay put.

The alternative is to lock yourself in your bedroom and call the police EVERY time you hear an unidentified noise.

Again, I don't think so, see above.

But, your point is well taken. This discussion has come up numerous times, and some people have said that remote wireless cameras are available at very low cost. A couple of cameras strategically placed should tell you whether have a dangerous situation or can rest easy.

As my hearing goes, that idea is sounding very appealing to me.

Cowering in fear without even knowing IF there are bad guys is just as extreme.

I agree. However, when you grab your gun and go looking, you have put yourself at extreme risk. Listen and make a judgment. And consider the idea of cameras.

Many people have suggested dogs. That may not work for everyone. We have a dog who barks at any sound she hears (someone walking a dog, neighbor coming home) but we haven't had any problems with intruders since we have had her.

Maybe the barking is a deterrent.

From mljdeckard:

I would never clear if I didn't have to, but if the intruder might be between me and my kids, I won't wait.

You cannot afford to wait. Your first obligation is to get them to immediately to safety, with you, without letting anyone in the family be taken hostage or shot, itentionally or otherwise.