MinnMooney
Member
that would be an illegal straw man sale.
'nuff said.
'nuff said.
Nervous to sell to this guy..but feel obligated. What would you do ?
- Thread starter hexidismal
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Loosedhorse
member
Hexidismal--
You've got it right: you should not sell to anyone who you think would be unsafe.
The fact that you've volunteered to train this guy at the range is good, not just for him but to give you more info on how he acts with guns. Maybe you'll find he is indeed safe; if not, then don't sell (Lawyer: "So, you felt my client was SO likely to injure himself with your deadly assault weapon that you posted that fact ON THE INTERNET, but now you say your not RESPONSIBLE for the fact that he is in fact now injured, just as you KNEW would happen?").
I'm pretty chatty with a couple of the FFLs in my area, and they ALL have stories about times they decided not to sell. Most of them are funny, but a lot make your neck hairs stand.
It hurts ALL gunowners when someone who's irresponsible gets hold of a gun, so it IS our responsibility to discourage that ('cause if not, we'll pay the price.) Huge difference between the gov't saying, "You can't buy! Peroid!" and a private citizen saying, "I won't sell. To you. My choice."
For MinnMooney--
Buying with intention to gift the firearm is a strawman purchase? I guess a lot of father-sons, father-daughters (and my own mom--thanks for the .357, Mom!) are headed to jail. (By the day, my mom didn't run a background check on me on my birthday--another loophole!!!!!!!!!! Where's John McCain?) Please don't give any anti-gun police depts (or the BATFE!) new ideas!
Purchasing for someone who COULD NOT purchase for themselves (felon, unlicensed, etc.) is illegal. See BATFE's webite: "Purchase a gun for someone who can't [legally, not financially] and buy yourself 10 years in jail." (Bad enough when the police don't know the law--gunnies really should.)
You've got it right: you should not sell to anyone who you think would be unsafe.
The fact that you've volunteered to train this guy at the range is good, not just for him but to give you more info on how he acts with guns. Maybe you'll find he is indeed safe; if not, then don't sell (Lawyer: "So, you felt my client was SO likely to injure himself with your deadly assault weapon that you posted that fact ON THE INTERNET, but now you say your not RESPONSIBLE for the fact that he is in fact now injured, just as you KNEW would happen?").
I'm pretty chatty with a couple of the FFLs in my area, and they ALL have stories about times they decided not to sell. Most of them are funny, but a lot make your neck hairs stand.
It hurts ALL gunowners when someone who's irresponsible gets hold of a gun, so it IS our responsibility to discourage that ('cause if not, we'll pay the price.) Huge difference between the gov't saying, "You can't buy! Peroid!" and a private citizen saying, "I won't sell. To you. My choice."
For MinnMooney--
Buying with intention to gift the firearm is a strawman purchase? I guess a lot of father-sons, father-daughters (and my own mom--thanks for the .357, Mom!) are headed to jail. (By the day, my mom didn't run a background check on me on my birthday--another loophole!!!!!!!!!! Where's John McCain?) Please don't give any anti-gun police depts (or the BATFE!) new ideas!Purchasing for someone who COULD NOT purchase for themselves (felon, unlicensed, etc.) is illegal. See BATFE's webite: "Purchase a gun for someone who can't [legally, not financially] and buy yourself 10 years in jail." (Bad enough when the police don't know the law--gunnies really should.)
Aguila Blanca
Member
How?
First, is there such a thing as a straw man "sale"? There's a straw man purchase -- that's where someone who is eligible buys a firearm for someone who is not eligible. But in any straw purchase deal, the seller is selling to someone who is eligible. It seems that unless the seller knows the purchaser is doing a straw purchase there's no such thing as a straw sale.
In this case, the GF wants to buy it as a gift for her fiance. Gifts are legal. Unless the ghetto dude is not eligible, there is nothing "straw" about selling her a gun to give to her fiance. The legalities of formalizing the transfer when she gives it to Mr. Ghetto are her problem, not the OP's problem.
MinnMooney
Member
by OP :
I have been corrected - This isn't a 'straw-man sale'. This is more like a legal, but questionable, sale to someone who will be giving it to a person whom the seller doesn't trust and is very leery of. The fact remains that the seller has serious doubts about the ultimate possessor of the weapon and I believe that he should stand up like a man and say, "I want to sell this weapon to someone other than your friend because I don't think I like his attitude/responsibility/training (take your pick) about guns.
Don't sell to her or him. You may come to regret it for the rest of your life.
I have been corrected - This isn't a 'straw-man sale'. This is more like a legal, but questionable, sale to someone who will be giving it to a person whom the seller doesn't trust and is very leery of. The fact remains that the seller has serious doubts about the ultimate possessor of the weapon and I believe that he should stand up like a man and say, "I want to sell this weapon to someone other than your friend because I don't think I like his attitude/responsibility/training (take your pick) about guns.
Don't sell to her or him. You may come to regret it for the rest of your life.
M203Sniper
member
I wouldn't sell a thug even a beat up old sks.
orionengnr
Member
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Insist that the transfer be accomplished at your local FFL.
Tell her you said SOME day, and this isn't the day, because you still want it.
ETA: Is it a black guy? Are you afraid they will think you are racist if you don't sell it to him? I'm just trying to understand what all of the trepidation is about. If he is, then just put that aside, and go with your gut. If he was a black guy who acted responsibly, and you trusted , would you sell it to him? If yes, then don't worry about it. If he isn't a black guy, then ... never mind
ETA: Is it a black guy? Are you afraid they will think you are racist if you don't sell it to him? I'm just trying to understand what all of the trepidation is about. If he is, then just put that aside, and go with your gut. If he was a black guy who acted responsibly, and you trusted , would you sell it to him? If yes, then don't worry about it. If he isn't a black guy, then ... never mind
The problem with tacticool guns like a decked-out SKS is that it does tend to draw the idiots.
If he really wanted a gun for home defense then he'd be thrilled with a plain Jane 870.
He wants the SKS because it's an SKS. Recently I had someone (by someone I mean ghetto thug) point at my Mossberg 590 and ask if it as an "AK".
If memory serves I simply told him he was an idiot.
If he really wanted a gun for home defense then he'd be thrilled with a plain Jane 870.
He wants the SKS because it's an SKS. Recently I had someone (by someone I mean ghetto thug) point at my Mossberg 590 and ask if it as an "AK".
If memory serves I simply told him he was an idiot.
mosserg.. ak....
Yeah... Nice.
"Ganstas" know AK, Mac 10, "tec-nine", nine, forty, forty five, and glock. And other street names for guns.
I have a friend that calls all snub nosed revolvers "saturday night specials" Even if the caliber and maker has been pointed out.
Yeah... Nice.
"Ganstas" know AK, Mac 10, "tec-nine", nine, forty, forty five, and glock. And other street names for guns.
I have a friend that calls all snub nosed revolvers "saturday night specials" Even if the caliber and maker has been pointed out.
Tell him that you would be more comfortable selling to him when he has a basic knowledge of firearms. Find out about a safety course he can take, and bring him to the range a couple of times. Explain that 7.62x39FMJ can penetrate far more than it should, and that a tacticool'd SKS would not look good if used in a SD situation. Suggest a shotgun with one of the smaller buckshot loads (not birdshot, just smaller than 00 if he plans on not practicing much). If he's an adult, he'll understand. If he refuses all of that, suggest he find another seller because you are not comfortable.
That is the key here. Ethics and gun politics aside, if you do not feel comfortable selling, then DON'T SELL. It's your decision, and we shouldn't force you to go either way.
That is the key here. Ethics and gun politics aside, if you do not feel comfortable selling, then DON'T SELL. It's your decision, and we shouldn't force you to go either way.
crebralfix
member
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You now have a chance to create a new, SAFE shooter.
If you feel obligated to sell it to him, tell him you feel obligated to train him since he's not skilled in firearms handling.
I would do something like this:
As part of the deal, he has to:
1) Attend a range and gun safety briefing with you (that means you go with him).
2) Prove to you he understands and implements the four safety rules.
3) Attend three shooting sessions with you at the local range where you will show him how to safely handle and operate the rifle. You should teach him how to shoot using either the online USMC materials or get the NRA Basic Rifle book.
4) Clean the rifle under your supervision after each range session.
He should also sign a bill of sale stating he's not a prohibited person according to the law (or do the transfer through an FFL).
IF he does all that and you're satisfied, you'll sell him the rifle (to be clear: at the END of the training. You'll hold it for him).
If things go right, you'll have a new gun nut to go shooting with.
EVEN BETTER...TAKE THE GIRLFRIEND TOO!!!!!!!
If you feel obligated to sell it to him, tell him you feel obligated to train him since he's not skilled in firearms handling.
I would do something like this:
As part of the deal, he has to:
1) Attend a range and gun safety briefing with you (that means you go with him).
2) Prove to you he understands and implements the four safety rules.
3) Attend three shooting sessions with you at the local range where you will show him how to safely handle and operate the rifle. You should teach him how to shoot using either the online USMC materials or get the NRA Basic Rifle book.
4) Clean the rifle under your supervision after each range session.
He should also sign a bill of sale stating he's not a prohibited person according to the law (or do the transfer through an FFL).
IF he does all that and you're satisfied, you'll sell him the rifle (to be clear: at the END of the training. You'll hold it for him).
If things go right, you'll have a new gun nut to go shooting with.
EVEN BETTER...TAKE THE GIRLFRIEND TOO!!!!!!!
M110
Member
+1
If the guy made my spidey sense go off, I wouldn't sell it to him either.
#1 although we all know it is legal, as the weapon will be gifted, as them to acertain the legality of such a task first.
#2 say 'for my own peace of mind I only sell my guns to people I know have passed the federal background check, to cover my own backside' remember, LEGAL is the bottom rung on the ladder, we can always choose to climb higher...it's just not required.
If it comes back clean, sell it to him.
#3 state that as a friend, you feel uncomfortable selling a gun that is this complicated to a total novice, and that once he has shown skill and safety so you know he is not a novice you will be happy to sell to him. Also offer to help him develope skill and safety if he doesn't posess them yet.
#2 say 'for my own peace of mind I only sell my guns to people I know have passed the federal background check, to cover my own backside' remember, LEGAL is the bottom rung on the ladder, we can always choose to climb higher...it's just not required.
If it comes back clean, sell it to him.
#3 state that as a friend, you feel uncomfortable selling a gun that is this complicated to a total novice, and that once he has shown skill and safety so you know he is not a novice you will be happy to sell to him. Also offer to help him develope skill and safety if he doesn't posess them yet.
JackBurtonJr
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Solves the problem for the op but doesn't necessarily do society or the young man any good.
plexreticle
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- 1,240
Tell him you decided to keep it and it's not for sale anymore.
bogie
Member
Some of you "RKBA purists" need to realize that the world is not about absolutes...
The 2nd amendment was not crafted because the founding old farts thought that criminals should have guns.
It was done because they figured that the population, as a whole, needs to have the tools with which to overthrow tyranny.
Heck, if I think that selling someone a freakin' jelly glass is gonna come back and bite me on the ass, well, I don't sell it to 'em.
It's that simple.
If you make it more difficult, well, that's your damn hobby. But if you don't wanna sell something, to someone, for some reason, hey, that's you.
The 2nd amendment was not crafted because the founding old farts thought that criminals should have guns.
It was done because they figured that the population, as a whole, needs to have the tools with which to overthrow tyranny.
Heck, if I think that selling someone a freakin' jelly glass is gonna come back and bite me on the ass, well, I don't sell it to 'em.
It's that simple.
If you make it more difficult, well, that's your damn hobby. But if you don't wanna sell something, to someone, for some reason, hey, that's you.
DomMega
Member
I'm pretty sure the OP has probably already made up his own mind about what he's going to do here but just to add something else that may not have been mentioned....perhaps you should tell your girlfriend that you don't want to be forced into consorting with people whom you're not very fond of for one reason or another. My ex girlfriends use to try and set me up on play dates and double dates with their friend's boyfriends and such and on rare occasion I found I didn't like these individuals. Some of them acting the same way as the OP's example and I just choose not to socialize with the simple minded and ignorant if it can possibly be avoided. I told my girlfriend at the time that I'm not going to be forced into hanging out with her girlfriend's boyfriends. If she wants to go hang out with her girlfriend and go shopping or girl it up somewhere for the evening, fine, whatever. But don't expect me to go along on double dates and meetings with their boyfriends because they think its cute or fun. A little assertiveness goes a long way, because in all honesty, some women just don't get it or don't see it the same way we do.
As far as everything else goes, if the guy can buy a gun legally at a store, than let the gun dealer deal with him, so to speak. That way you don't have to ever have a guilty conscience on selling a deadly weapon to someone you truly believe shouldn't have one. Sure, it is his right to be sold a gun, but does that necessarily mean he should have one? No. Use your judgment and act accordingly.
Best of luck.
As far as everything else goes, if the guy can buy a gun legally at a store, than let the gun dealer deal with him, so to speak. That way you don't have to ever have a guilty conscience on selling a deadly weapon to someone you truly believe shouldn't have one. Sure, it is his right to be sold a gun, but does that necessarily mean he should have one? No. Use your judgment and act accordingly.
Best of luck.
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