New gun to replace the Beretta M9?

[XD Fan]

I was in a gun shop the other day and one of the clerks said he thinks that The U.S. is very likely to adopt the XD45 as the new side arm for our soldiers and sailors. Does anyone know if there is any truth to this?

Obviously, given my handle, I would favor this move, but I had not heard this rumor anywhere else. Apparently according to this clerk, Springfield and the Croatian manufacturer are opening a U.S. located factory as the Made in the U.S.A. label is mandatory for military selection. I do not know the truth of this supposed new factory or the Made in the U.S.A. requirement.

Let me know if you guys and gals are hearing any rumbling verifying or debunking this.

 

[Lupinus]

I doubt it

All the safties on the XD are passive (may not be the right termanoligy there) in that they are all turned off by the act of holding and firing the gun. The military tends to want manual safties, in other words ones you actually have to turn off with a seperate action other then just gripping and pulling the trigger.

I think the XD's would do fine in military service, in fact I believe the Croatians currently use them and the pistol was designed for them to begin with.

 

[Trebor]

Not true. SOCCOM is looking for a new .45 ACP pistol for special forces types, but the "Big Army" withdrew from the project. In any event, the XD doesn't have second strike capability which, last I knew, was a requirement.

 

[ugaarguy]

There's been quite a bit of discussion on this topic. Very condensed version - There is an Army Spec Ops program seeking a new pistol in 45 ACP. For a while the Army tacked on a force wide replacement requirement. They later dropped that requirement, returning it to the original spec ops request. Rumors have been flying as to what pistol will be chosen. Depending who you listen to it's going to be HK-45 (developed specifically for this trial), SiG P220, XD 45, Ruger P97 or P345, A new Glock, or whatever else you can think of. The special operations community will get a new 45 in the near future. The writing is also on the wall that the regular Army isn't happy with the 9mm either. Sooner or later they will put out a new requirement, get prototypes, run trials, and adopt a new pistol in 45 ACP. We'll see what happens when it happens. Until then expect gun shop fairy tales that every hot new 45 will be the next standard issue US Military sidearm.

 

[Old Fuff]

It has been my experience that so far as gunshop clerks are concerned, the "new army pistol," or "new FBI gun," or whatever is almost always what they have in stock, or can get quickly.

 

[psyopspec]

LOL! Remember, the search function is your friend.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=213884
-Ruger was the most recent fantasy replacement. Searches will reveal multiple threads on the JCP (Joint Combat Pistol). Searching for the HK .45 should reveal more conjencture.

 

[possum]

I don't think so, being a solider i have learned that if it sounds to good to be true, then it most definetly is. I wish they would adopt the xd, but they won't. Like was said before socom is still looking, but they have alot more funds and alot more say in what there operators carry, so if they want a new sidearm then a new sidearm they will get. I don't see the regular army switching over anytime soon.

All the safties on the XD are passive (may not be the right termanoligy there) in that they are all turned off by the act of holding and firing the gun. The military tends to want manual safties, in other words ones you actually have to turn off with a seperate action other then just gripping and pulling the trigger.

this is very true, I don't think the head shed of the military would aprove of the xd's safety features. you have to remeber that the majority of the people that will be carring what ever they decide are not gun freaks like we are, and i think the xd would cause more ad's and nd's than it would do good. But on that note the Iraqi police which are way less trainned than most of or military carry glocks, and the officers of the Iraqi national guard carry S&W 99 go figure right!

 

[Lupinus]

didn't the 1911 origionally have no thumb safty and it was only added as a result of the military agreeing to adopt it so long as that was added?

I'm not sure how much it would actually be more prone to nd's because from all I have seen you actually have to hold it properly and squeeze the trigger properly, it isn't just a matter of a heavy trigger. Wonder how hard it would be to add a 1911 style thumb safty to the XD? Might make it more likly to be adopted.

 

[possum]

Wonder how hard it would be to add a 1911 style thumb safty to the XD? Might make it more likly to be adopted.

I don't know but i have seen thumb safeties for glocks, i am sure it could be done for the xd as well.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

I think it would be great if they adopted the XD45. I love the 1911 but the one thing about it I hate is the fact it only holds 7+1 rounds. The XD45 solves that and does so without the gorilla sized grips of the older double stack 45's like the para P14.

I don't think the head shed of the military would aprove of the xd's safety features. you have to remeber that the majority of the people that will be carring what ever they decide are not gun freaks like we are, and i think the xd would cause more ad's and nd's than it would do good.

If an external safety is the only thing keeping the current men/women in the military from making it go bang when they don't want it to, then they seriously need to review the 4 rules and get some people who are at least marginally competent. Full grip on the gun+squeeze the trigger=BANG. Doesn't seem that complicated. We can keep these tucked inside our pants every day but the "professionals" can't seem to grasp the concept? hmm.
ETA: Possum i'm not attacking your comment, I agree with what you said. I just find some of the requirements disturbing.

 

[rangerruck]

YES , the m9 will be replaced, NO, not by the xd.

 

[JohnKSa]

YES , the m9 will be replaced...

But not anytime soon.

Check out the link in psyopspec's post.

The pistol contract was originally only for USASOC (50K-ish pistols), the conventional army decided to piggy back the effort, but then dropped out a while back, taking 600,000 of the contract's required pistols with them. (Big Army is staying with the M9 for the time being.) The only real tangible result of Big Army's involvement in the contract has been fueling "we told you so" articles in the gun rags about how its 1911 all over again, etc., and slowing USASOC procurement by over a year so far.

Obviously, given my handle, I would favor this move...

The worst thing you can have happen is for your favorite pistol to become the U.S. army issue pistol.

There's nothing that will ruin the reputation of an excellent pistol like putting it in the hands of thousands of soldiers.

 

[EvisceratorSrB]

ETA: Possum i'm not attacking your comment, I agree with what you said. I just find some of the requirements disturbing.

Redudancy is safety's best friend. You'll find it everywhere, from building designs, to, you named it, firearms! The safety mechanism in the XD's work fine, but I would opt in it being LESS redundant than a 1911-style thumb safety.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

The obvious choice is a SIG.


A nice, all metal gun, with the correct trigger type for the military. It has second strike and a hammer. Polymer is nice and all, but have you ever seen the way things can be treated in the military? Abuse isn't the word. In their lifetime, it can be expected to be used as a hammer and other tools..get piled into a crate with dozens of others with lots of weight on top, get soaked in all sorts of destructive liquids etc....I dunno about polymer.


Manual safety is rediculous. If LE has run away from manual safeties, what makes them a good thing for military use?


I'm not saying that because I'm a Sig fan...I don't even own one. I just think it is ideal for their needs. But that's for them to determine.



I own an XD-9 Tactical. Very nice. Would the military consider it? Dunno. If what people say about a manual safety being included it could be redesigned a little to add one. It is a very LOW cost gun. You can get the 9mm for $425 brand new with 3 mags if you look around. Military should be able to get a phenominal price. They like that. BUT, I just don't see the XD becoming a standard issue sidearm. I don't know why. Maybe after some testing/abuse...I know the Croatians use it, and I think it can handle a lot of abuse...I just don't know if it is GI proof. That's the ultimate standard.

 

[Travis McGee]

Count on this: which ever new pistol is chosen, it will be for 90% political reasons, same as with the M-9....which lost the evaluation tests to the SIG back in the 80s, hands down, but which was picked anyway for NATO/Italy/bases/F-16 deal reasons.

 

[HorseSoldier]

XD45 is one of the pistols under consideration, but I don't consider it a contender. With the program being back down to a special operations only contract, it's likely to be the HK entry or the Sig entry, in my opinion.

 

[cbsbyte]

Count on this: which ever new pistol is chosen, it will be for 90% political reasons, same as with the M-9....which lost the evaluation tests to the SIG back in the 80s, hands down, but which was picked anyway for NATO/Italy/bases/F-16 deal reasons.

That is not the story that I have heard. The version I heard many times was that both guns where pretty much equal in the tests but Beretta gave the DOD a better overall deal with extra parts, magazines etc. The controversity was that military picked the 9x19mm over a 45 ACP pistol due to pressure from Congress to conform to the NATO standard. This made some sense at the time, since if there was a major war in Europe against the Com bloc then all Western powers would be apply to use the same ammo supplies. This is the same reasoning NATO forces where pressured into useing Our 7.62x51 then shortly after having the 5.56 rammed down their collective throats.

The 1911 type pistol is a no go since the DOD requirments ask for a DAO pistol with a manual safety/Decocker. Though I believe ParaOradance makes DAO 1911s so the design might have a chance after all.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

get piled into a crate with dozens of others with lots of weight on top

That WILL happen. He's not joking. I've seen it.

 

[XD Fan]

the xd would cause more ad's and nd's than it would do good

Are the LE agencies that have adopted the Glock experiencing more ADs and NDs than they did when using other weapons that had some sor tof manual safety or required hammer movement? They may or may noy have this problem: I just do not know the answer. I would like to hear any knowledge on this issue that is out there.

Here I go quoting the gun store clerk again, but he said that Glock are not in consideration because they do not have a U.S. manufacturing plant. Does anyone know if this is an actual requirement?

I think it would be great if they adopted the XD45. I love the 1911 but the one thing about it I hate is the fact it only holds 7+1 rounds. The XD45 solves that and does so without the gorilla sized grips of the older double stack 45's like the para P14.

What ever advantages or disadvantages the XD45 might have, that 13+1 w/o the "gorilla sixed grips" sure would be nice for our soldiers to have when things get crazy.

 

[possum]

Count on this: which ever new pistol is chosen, it will be for 90% political reasons, same as with the M-9....which lost the evaluation tests to the SIG back in the 80s, hands down, but which was picked anyway for NATO/Italy/bases/F-16 deal reasons.

Yes polotics have alot to do with it unfortunatly!

but he said that Glock are not in consideration because they do not have a U.S. manufacturing plant. Does anyone know if this is an actual requirement?

Yes this is a requirement, and glock has started making frames/ lower recievers in the us but not the slides, as I am aware.

Are the LE agencies that have adopted the Glock experiencing more ADs and NDs than they did when using other weapons that had some sor tof manual safety or required hammer movement? They may or may noy have this problem: I just do not know the answer. I would like to hear any knowledge on this issue that is out there.

I would venture to say that all most all police officers, gun nuts or not, do more shooting, and trainning with there assigned weapons than the regular army does. Even us Infantry guys. I couldn't tell you the last time i qualified with my m16
Check this out, my new Bn commander went to the rane to qualify the other day, and it had been the first time he had qualified since 97, hand't picked up an m16/m4 since then. and he is an Infantry officer. One problem we are running into is the fact that the army is low on funds and even if we do go to the range. we get a handful of rounds to zero with and 40 to qual with. If you are a first time go then that is all the shooting you are gonna do. we did a little more before iraq deploymenbt but not enough. This is the Infantry, some of the non combatants and "soft" Mos's maybe qual, once a year, if they aren't on cq, or staff duty, or some other BS assignment.

 

[Lupinus]

that deals out the XD because they are made in Croatia and imported to the US.

It does make perfect sense though. Aren't the barrels for the Abrams made in Germany though?

 

[10-Ring]

I doubt it...as I understand it, the guns in the running have active external safeties or have DAO capabilities. Neither of which current XD's don't have.

 

[MAGNUMMAN]

It will be replaced by the new HK45 or the yet to be released FNP45.

 

[KC&97TA]

I hate to say such a thing but "quit smokeing crack"... the M9 isn't going anywere anytime soon. How many times has the Army tried to replace the M16? Yup and what came about, M4's, M41's, A3's and A4's and now the SR-25.

If anything, more of those "new" 1911-A1's will "pop" out of gov't storeage and back into the fleet forces, LOL.

Every US Military Weapon will have a manual safety or thumb safety. We got dumbys over in Iraq and other places shooting thier buddies accidently with M16's that have a safety... I couldn't imagine a weapon issued out without a manual safety on it, the recruiters would have to work over time!

 

[thealadar]

the M9 isn't going anywere anytime soon. How many times has the Army tried to replace the M16? Yup and what came about, M4's, M41's, A3's and A4's and now the SR-25.

Makes you wonder w/e happened with the XM8 (& even older OICW) trials. Lack of funding? who knows.