Newb to hand loading: Charging a round?

[Lost Sheep]

Just buy loaded ammo

Dude, I am pretty sure that ship sailed and sank a while ago.

Grim Peeper is well on his (or her) way to becoming an accomplished and safe loader, asking appropriate questions and showing understanding of the explanations given.

Lost Sheep

 

[merrill]

RCModel, I have such a device and it definitely does give the approximate powder weight for each spoon (dipper) depending on which powder is used and it covers 99% of the powders available. Pick a commonly used powder and the dipper size and I'll tell you the weight of the powder that dipper will hold. Do I use dippers? no. I weigh each charge because there are no dippers that have the weight of powder I use.

 

[Lost Sheep]

RCModel, I have such a device and it definitely does give the approximate weight for each spoon (dipper) depending on which powder is used and it covers 99% of the powders available. Pick a commonly used powder and the dipper size and I'll tell you the weight of the powder that dipper will hold. Do I use dippers? no. I weigh each charge because there are no dippers that have the weight of powder I use.

I have an answer: Adjustable dipper.

Dribble some candle wax into the bottom of a too-large dipper and then carve the wax down until the dipper gives your desired weight.

Another answer:

Put a hole in the bottom of a dipper, then run a machine screw of appropriate diameter into the dipper. Turning the screw will give you a variable cavity.

And another:

Use a dipper just under your desired weight to drop powder into your scale, then trickle up to your desired weight (which is what I suspect you are doing now, is it?)

Lost Sheep

 

[Dudedog]

Yes you can just buy loaded ammo but thats not the point.
I enjoy reloading and find it relaxing.

I would bet once you get it dialed in your HP38 loads will be more accurate than most factory ammo.


Sorry if the refund joke was in poor taste, I don't make a lot, it just seems like they want a lot of what I do make.

 

[ljnowell]

Lee's FCD (Factory Crimp Die)



Note that there are two FCD designs. The design for bottlenecked (usually rifle) cases is completely different from the design for straight-walled (usually handgun) cases.



You can use a regular combination seat-crimp die to perform seating and crimping in two separate operations.



To seat only: Back the die body out of the press until no crimp is applied. Adjust the seating stem accordingly. Use the die adjusted this way to seat the bullet. Friction will hold it in place.



To crimp only: Back the seating stem out of the die (even remove completely if you want) so it will not be able to contact the nose of the bullet. Adjust the die body to provide the desired crimp.



The advantage of this way of seating and crimping separately is that the crimp is applied on a stationary bullet, preventing the case mouth from gouging into the sides of the bullet. This is not usually a problem with taper-crimped cartridges, but some people see value in it (including me).



The Lee FCD (unlike the other crimp-only dies from other makers) does one other thing that is the source of most of the problems and objections. It sizes the finished round (I call it "post-sizing").



The purpose of the post sizing is to ensure that any bulge introduced by the bullet squeezing into the case will be "ironed out". This ensures reliable feeding of the finished rounds. The problem is, though, that the brass is more elastic than lead and the case mouth springs back after the post-sizing and the bullet does not spring back as much (especially cast lead bullets - jacketed bullets are less affected than cast lead). The difference n the amount of springback loosens the grip of the case mouth on the bullet.



Go to Lee's web site's FAQ section for their explanation.



Go to these threads for more discussion



One thread contains a lively discussion of the FCD and the function of the post-sizing carbide ring in the FCD. The phrase "9mm" is in the thread title, but don't let that dissuade you. It contains responses direct from Lee Precision, too. Read the whole thing. It is worth it.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=465091



this thread contains a poll



http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=465603



I started these four threads (on my four favorite sites) with the same title because the subject seemed to beg a thorough and cool-headed discussion.





The Virtue and the Vice

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509934

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=691050

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=168362

http://rugerforum.net/reloading/65863-lee-fcd-pistol-not-rifle-virtue-vice.html#post814465

The concept of sizing down the bullets and causing tension issues is highly debatable. I believe it had to do with the manufacturing of the die.

For instance I have seen indisputable proof of it happening. A person I trust very much loaded ten rounds and pulled them and all ten were sized down. I did the same and mine were perfect.

I believe some FCDs are poorly constructed with undersized carbide sizers.

 

[MEHavey]

The only "crimping" req'd is to smooth the slight bell on
the [45 ACP] case mouth back to spec: ~ 0.470"-0.471"
That's it.

 

[merrill]

Thanks for the info. Lost Sheep. I purchased a kit by Lee which has all the dippers made by Lee. With it came a sliding card, that I called a device, which tells me the weight of powder for each dipper according to whatever powder I'm using. The idea of a screw through the base of a dipper is a good idea and I wish I had thought of it a few years back. I rarely have to trickle because I use ball powders in all of my reloads and the Lee powder charger throws charges +or- .1 grain.

 

[Grim Peeper]

Hey thanks guys I just put a little knotch or line on the inside of the dipper to indicate 5 grains then I put each individual caseing on the scale and charged a few cases that way I did 5 at around 4.8 and 5 cases at 5.0 and 5 cases at 5.2 at a OAL of 1.260 a couple were slight shorter at 1,255. Not that I am supe anxious to shoot them I just wanted to try it for the first time, completing a round that is and they look fine to me. While I was adjusting the depth of the die I made one bullet way too small like 1.22 but Im going to pull that one once my puller comes in the mail I got the franford hammer style one.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Hey thanks guys I just put a little knotch or line on the inside of the dipper to indicate 5 grains

If I read your post correctly, you put a line inside a dipper that delivers more than 5 grains (when full) to indicate where to stop filling the dipper.

Granular substances are not like liquids. Considerable variation in amount measured can be due to settling. As you manipulate the dipper, settling and compaction occurs and you will get a bit more than you might think. This is less pronounced with perfectly spherical powders and more a factor with irregularly shaped powders. But a bad practice (if I interpreted your post 83 correctly).

then I put each individual caseing on the scale and charged a few cases that way I did 5 at around 4.8 and 5 cases at 5.0 and 5 cases at 5.2

Of course, if you weigh the charges before actually seating a bullet, you are fine because any overage is corrected before you finsish.

Lost Sheep

Be safe. Always. All ways.

 

[Grim Peeper]

Yes I just put the knotch there to get a general idea I really don't trust it that much and will definately weigh each individual charge until I get a better powder dispensing system. You mentioned the perfect powder dispenser but thats a little big for my set up at the moment I wish I had more space for a bench and such. And also I do certainly understand what you said about compaction of the granules and settling effects and that is a very good point that I never considered. The way I did it was I put the case on the scale tared the scale and then added the powder. I suppose you could actually put a few cases on the same scale and tare after each charge of a case as well but I did them individually. Also don't worry about the refund check thing im not offended im just in school at the moment and working part time. Im sure you all prob see me as hangin out in a double wide with guns strewn about with a wife beater and cig hangin out of my mouth while im playing with gun powder but that only half way true

 

[MEHavey]

Can you afford $9 for a complete Lee Dipper Set ?

(You don't want to be trying to eye-
ball faint scribe lines inside a dipper)

 

[Grim Peeper]

It is the lee .45 ACP spoon I have why would I buy the complete set of lee spoons if the one I actually have is for 45 and doesn't do an adequate job I don't understand why I would want to buy those lee spoons if the single one I have for that caliber doesn't cut it. I don't know maybe I'm crazy I'll just weigh the powder for now I feel safe that way until I can get something more precise.

 

[Walkalong]

I believe some FCDs are poorly constructed with undersized carbide sizers.

I agree.

Thing is, it doesn't take much.

I have an answer: Adjustable dipper.

You mean a powder measure.

Back when I started I made some dippers out of brass cases. File them down until it throws what you need. Change powder lot number and you might have to make a new one.

 

[ljnowell]

It is the lee .45 ACP spoon I have why would I buy the complete set of lee spoons if the one I actually have is for 45 and doesn't do an adequate job I don't understand why I would want to buy those lee spoons if the single one I have for that caliber doesn't cut it. I don't know maybe I'm crazy I'll just weigh the powder for now I feel safe that way until I can get something more precise.

That dipper isn't really made for 45 ACP, it's just what they included. They make a set if dippers that cones with a large selection if varying sizes so you can find one that actually drops a useable charge. They are quite handy.

 

[WestKentucky]

On the hammer puller, don't hit anything soft or if will break the head off. Hit something hard. Concrete, steel, heavy wood will work but is not advisable. You want the sudden bounce effect, not the slow down and rebound effect. Wear earplugs.

 

[Grim Peeper]

Ok I see now the the lee spoon set is volumetic and not by caiber that's good. But if they made a small adjustable dipper id be all over that too. Also hey man by ear plugs did you mean that it that puller if use inproperly could cause a rebound on the over end of the cartridge and cause the primer to ignite?

 

[CZ9shooter]

cause the primer to ignite?

Very unlikely. Unless you swing the thing backwards at an irregular surface I cant see how anything is gonna contact the primer at all, let alone in just the right way to set it off.

 

[Dudedog]

Can you afford $9 for a complete Lee Dipper Set ?

The complete dipper set won't do you much good. (for this one powder round combo)
The only two that might even be close are the .3 and .5.
However .3 is to small (about 3.3 gr of HP38)
The .5 should give you around 5.4 which might be ok.
As you know .7 is too big.
(this is where the VMD stuff i was rambling about comes in)
Dipper size/VMD = grains of powder,
so .5/.0926 (Listed VMD of HP38, which should be close) = ta da 5.4 grains.

I will go take a picture of my perfect powder measure for you showing the mounting holes. I think all you would need to mount it would be about a 6 or 8" long piece of 2*6, 1*6, etc. A little bigger board would make it more stable. Another option would be to use a small board and a C clamp to clamp it to something.

Pics coming.

 

[Dudedog]

Here are some pics so you can get an idea of it size. You could probably attach it to a larger board with wing nuts so you could disasemble the two quickly.

Mine is mounted to the bench top, small board is thrown in for ideas.

With HP38 this measure is usually right on, using a GEM 20 to weigh usually never + or - more than .05 gr.
I think it works really well for an inexpensive measure. $25 Money well spent IMO.

I believe 5.4 is about the middle of the charge range so the .5 dipper would work, if you wanted 5.4.
Powder lots vary so it may be a bit more or a bit less.

 

[MEHavey]

As far a "a" dipper, the 0.5 is perfect for the OP's very specific HP-38/45ACP/185gr application "at the moment."

As he tries different bullet weights, calibers and different weapons, more will come into play.

The set is one of the cheaper broad-application tools you can buy. If you see a set at a LGS, get it.

 

[Grim Peeper]

I definately think that getting a real powder dispenser is in my future however I did takes look in my 9mm die kit and it came with a .5cc dipper and guess what i filled it up and weighed the powder and it came to 5.1 grains so I guess I could just use that one if I'm just loading .45acp for now so that is mighty convenient. I'll just hold on to the .7cc in the case I'll be loading larger cartridges in the future but for now the 9mm dipper is perfect for my powder it looks like. The perfect powder dispenser looks Ike a good future purchase for though.

 

[Dudedog]

Cool you have a .5. I found a spare, but I guess you found one to!

Looks like the VMD for your lot of HP38 works out to about .098
.5 (dipper in cc)/5.1 (grains of powder) = .098 caculated VMD
If the .098 # is correct that would mean your .7 dipper should be about 7.2gr. (to much HP38 for .45 APC but might be right for something else)
(no need to worry about the VMD, just working it out listed for HP38 is .0926 which would mean a little denser than your lot, yours seems a little fluffier-takes up more space for a given charge weight)
For giggles you could weigh a .7 scoop figure its VMD and see what number you come up with.
Again all VMD is good for is estimating what a certain size scoop or disk will throw before you weigh the charge to see what you are getting.

I worked to put my self thru college (years ago) so I know it's no picnic, have memories of lots of cup of noodles, bean bag chairs, cinder block shelves....
and a 1911 .45!

Do you have plenty of 9mm cases?
If your interested PM me and I will send you a 100 9mm 125 Missouri Bullet Company bullets to try out, I can spare some 9mm cases as well if you need some.

 

[Grim Peeper]

Yep DudeDog the .7cc dipper was delivering 7.2 so your right on this .5cc should right on for 5.1. Also I would greatly apperciate any contribution including brass for sure I can pm you with my info that would be awesome!!! I do have some loaded rounds of brassmaxx Tula 9mm I bought at Walmart a bit ago for 23 buck for 100 but haven't shot it yet. I mainly love shooting my 1911s and shotguns with clays at the range recently but I did buy the 9mm dies and primers in anticipation for loading 9mm in the future. I have a glock 26 I plan to use when I get my carry permit.

Also While I'm here asking newbie question I did some more careful caliper AOL measurements of my 20 or so completed rounds and I did notice most of them fell in the range of 1.264 to 1.267 but I have one that measured kinda short at 1.260 and a long one was 1.269 these were my extremes in range is this acceptable? Looking at them both on an even surface I cannot even visually tell a difference in length should these "flyers" be pulled? Or at least the 1.260 short one is it too stubby?

 

[Dudedog]

I like 4.0 or 4.1 of HP38 with the MBC 9mm 125 bullets.
Quick hint, the eraser off a normal wood pencil is the right diameter to fit in the .5 scoop to make it smaller for HP38 charges in 9mm. You might have to "erase" a bit off the sides then just cut it to the height you need.
Start is 3.9 range is 3.9 to 4.4 OAL 1.125. (from Hodgdon) I usually load the MBCs to about 1.10 a hair deeper than listed so the max charge would be less.

 

[Dudedog]

With 5.1 you should be safe with 1.260. I load 230s (heavier=less powder) with 5 at 1.23 OAL. (shorter = less powder)

Hodgdon lists 1.14 and 1.135 for ther start loads with 180 lead and 185 jacketed so your fine as long as the longer ones feed and chamber.