No such thing as "utterly reliable".....is there?

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"Utterly" reliable, aka "no wriggle room at all" is rare to non-existant. Check this thread for some interesting observations.

Most of the utterly reliable firearms I see are afflicted by the 'ceptin-fors in one degree or another. Mine included.

I've got an STI CCO type that's been utterly reliable 'ceptin-for when I tried running it with .45ACP magazines (it's a .40 S&W).

A CZ-52 has been great 'ceptin-for the bad half-case of S&B ammo I got.

SIG P-239 'ceptin-for a Mag-Tech squib (bullet didn't lodge in the barrel - keyholed the target 2 feet low at 5 yards and skidded to a stop short of the backstop - slide didn't cycle)

Had an Anaconda that locked itself up solid with a factory (old PMC) round that "flowed".

I've read of numerous 100% reliable pistols on this very board - 'ceptin-for when it was "limp wristed", mag not inserted, thumb on slide stop, etc, etc.

I'm intrigued by the "reliability shoot out" in "Tactics" for the very reason that 'ceptin-fors count. Those that have 18 jazillion rounds through something with "utter reliability" simply don't have my luck with factory ammo - yet. Their day is coming.

I suppose reasonable people will allow for exceptions not related to the firearm, but "utterly" reliable doesn't, by definition, permit them. Hence, a firearm can only be "utterly reliable" temporarily.
 
Close Enough

Around 1986 the United States Secret Service performed a torture function test on several 9mm semi-autos they were considering as their main service duty pistol. I personally spoke with one of the Testers.

The guns were fired 8 hours a day.......5 days a week at their Beltsville, MD. Facility - with the same brand ammo. NO weapon was allowed to be cleaned and I believe a drop of oil was allowed on the rails periodically.

The winner : A SIG P-226 that fired OVER 100,000 rounds without a single failure or Jam of any kind.

The second place gun failed at around 70,000 rounds ........... so not even close to the SIG.

Reliable ??? shooting 1,000 rounds a year -- the shooter could shoot for 100 years without cleaning and without failure. That's close enough for me :eek:


JF.
 
Revolvers do malfunction and when they do, most of the time they are out of action for days if not hours. Semi Autos usually can be cleared with the tap, rack, bang immediate action. You want ABSOLUTELY RELIABLE? Look at a pistol called the "Liberator".:evil:
 
The only handgun that I own, or have owned, that I could honestly describe as "utterly reliable", would be the S&W 3913.

That little single stack 9mm ate everything I fed it, worked when filthy, was tack driving accurate, and provided more bang for the buck than any firearm I've ever owned.
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I heard a story that was similar by a woman that was involved in transporting criminals around the world and back.
She really shot it a lot and it was and is still with her.

:)
 
You're overthinking this. It doesn't have to be utterly reliable, but it has to successfully cycle two mags under great stress w/o issue if it's a CCW is all. After that, if you haven't done your job, chances are you're done doing anything anymore anyway.
 
It doesn't have to be utterly reliable, but it has to successfully cycle two mags under great stress w/o issue if it's a CCW is all.
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The only problem with that is that there's no consistency. If the pistol produces one jam/stoppage every hundred rounds, you have no way of knowing when it'll happen. If you bought a case of ammo, and got one misfire or squib per hundred rounds...would you be okay carrying it in a defensive pistol?
 
...
The winner : A SIG P-226 that fired OVER 100,000 rounds without a single failure or Jam of any kind.

The second place gun failed at around 70,000 rounds ........... so not even close to the SIG.

Reliable ??? shooting 1,000 rounds a year -- the shooter could shoot for 100 years without cleaning and without failure. That's close enough for me
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My memory differs, but I can't find a link.

Tuner - can you shed some light?

I thought the USSS was issued the P229 in 357SIG but wasn't aware they'd done their own testing.

I believe the P226 did well in the Army's XM9 testing but nothing went 100K rounds. The MRBF (mean rounds between failures) numbers were very good but didn't approach infinity. Or did they?
 
One thing I've never seen stressed is jam clearing procedures, there are very effective reactions to jams. I think it involves identification, then the fast reactive dejamming procedure. In my opinion, depending on the jam type, the average revolver shooter (average, now) will put far fewer rounds downrange in a given time with no mechanical failures, cylinder jams for instance, than an auto in the hands of the average auto shooter even with a jam or two. Obviously some jams are disabling, a case stuck in the chamber or really jammed tight in the action, but those are rare and usually pistol specific.
The fact that military and police forces usually favor the automatic is a telling fact. People talk about how reliable their revolver is, but very few people can load a revolver as fast as an auto can be loaded. Those who can reload fast still have only six shots, then have to do it again. Some auto shooters can reload while the empty mag is still in the air!
I've been working an auto over that tends to jam empty cases horizontally above the incoming round, I'm not a prolific shooter but I've gotten so that I can recognize the jam and reset the gun in less than a second. My point is that if jam clearing is considered a necessary skill and part of firearms use instead of only an indicator of a bad firearm it will make better gunmen out of us. In the meanwhile we identify why a specific gun is jamming and solve that problem. My Kimber has never jammed.:) I think a good self defense course should involve a jammomatic alongside the favored handgun to instill fast effective jam clearing techniques.








9
 
ANYTHING mechanical can fail to function and to say that revolvers are more "utterly reliable" just isn't the case. To date, I've never had any of my higher quality autos (Glock, Beretta, HK, Sig, XDs) as well as less expansive autos (Rugers, Makarov, EAA, CZ) expereince a stoppage or malfunction. However, I've had one revolver that went out of time and another S&W 586 that bound up tight when a primer backed out enough to tie up the cylinder. Now is that to say that I've never seen an auto go down? No, I've seen plenty of M9s that have broken locking blocks, new M9s that didn't always feed the next round as well as civilian 1911s that had issues as well while I've had other revolvers that fit the "six for sure" revolver saying. Anything can fail at any time. The saving grace for the auto though is what when things do go wong, immediate action generally fixes the problem fairly fast. When my 586's cylinder stopped turning, it took a bit more than "tap rack bang" to get it firing again!
 
I'm newer to revolvers than autos and that likely skews the observations, but it's been my experience than when one of those wheelguns malfs it does so in a spectacular and convincing manner.

Loooong time to clear.

I'd rather run a 10X liklihood of a malf with 1/100 of the time needed to clear as opposed to the revolver's less likely but show-stopping malf.

As far as I know, the revolver proponents are invited to this. I'm not party to the enterprise but if I was it'd be "the more, the merrier".
 
My Glock 17 has probably 6,000 rounds through it with no failures and on average is cleaned every 2,000 rounds. My Glock 26 has been flawless as well but probably has half the wear on it. I'm willing to bet my life on either.

Of course I think I'd be just as comfortable with one of Tuner's 1911s as I am with my Tupperware. How do you not trust something he owns when he knows the proper engineering specs, tolerances and angles better than a lot of the manufacturers do? :D
 
Tap, rack and bang...expect malfunctions, train for them. All things can go wrong at the exact time you need them. You should make malfunctions part of your shooting routine. Then if it does happen you are well prepared for it.
 
If the gun has never malfunctioned, it probably hasn't been shot enough. Even my -gasp- Glock choked once or twice when the recoil assembly got past 15,300 rounds. But that's OK. Now I have a decent guage of when those things need to be replaced.

And the world didn't even end. I reflexively cleared the malfunction and continued with the stage. It added maybe a second and a half to my score.

Get a gun that usually works, train to fix it when it doesn't, and move on to the next issue ;).
 
I thought the USSS was issued the P229 in 357SIG but wasn't aware they'd done their own testing.
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Perhaps they were at "some" time ......... but pay attention to the DATES mentioned in my post if you are going to question the accuracy of my response. The 357 SIG did NOT exist in the mid-80's when law enforcement agencies all over the country were looking to convert to semi-auto's.

I was in charge of compiling the "study" for my dept. that would eventually bring them on line carrying semi-auto's .......... and like the Secret Service, we chose the Sig P-226. I worked closely with the top 4 contenders that were trying to lure LEO's into using their weapons. SIG, HK, S&W and Beretta.

Please notice Glock was NOT in the picture ............. but now look at them.
Fantastic marketing Plan !!

JF.
 
Wasn't questioning your post.

Well, maybe a little. The 80s tests didn't produce anything 100% reliable. The Army's tests used mean rounds between failures.

I'm willing to believe something went 100K rounds with a link to the tests. It's also a little puzzling why an agency would go to the trouble of running their own tests then (eventually) issue something else when the original remains available.

Not incredible - just puzzling.
 
Put a snap cap randomly into your magazine. better yet have a friend load the magazines so you have no idea if one is in there. You find two things out fast. Can you clear an ammo malfuntion and if you are jerking the trigger.
 
Hawk not trying to give you a hard time ............. but as times change, the Secret Service is willing to change and go with the newer and better equipment - nothing puzzling about that at all - just good sense.

Back in the early 80's the 9mm was the Cat's Meow !! I interviewed LEO's from all over the Country that used the 9mm semi-auto in the line of duty and not a single officer complained about it stopping power --just the opposite Most claimed the 9mm proved better than their Magnum guns.
The 357 magnum was just a "hole puncher" at close range ......... etc.

Moving forward >>> Better calibers were being offered by SIG and others and so the Service "upgraded" their choices. as they became available.

I don't have a link for the testing that went on at the Beltsville facility ...... because I got the information straight from the firearms Instructors that were conducting the testing at that time. This testing was done by the Uniform branch of the Secret Service who were some of the best shooters I have ever seen then or Now. Even 22 years ago this facility was state-of the Art - with a 100 meter "INDOOR" shooting range......... Also having a city street to move down while shooting blanks with your Laser equiped revolvers at human targets throwing 2x4's at you from windows in 2 story buildings.
I had a great time training there and am grateful for the privilage and opportunity to work with these highly dedicated Uniformed Offciers of the US Secret Service.

JF.
 
Of course I think I'd be just as comfortable with one of Tuner's 1911s as I am with my Tupperware.
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'Preciate the vote of confidence...but these two pistols have never had any super secret tweakin' beyond installation of a good extractor, and using good magazines...of which I regularly use any of 72 that make up my range battery on any given session. They've been rebuilt once and are on their 3rd barrels...but there's been no tricks performed on'em, or on any of the other four that make up my "Brace of Beaters" that accompany me to the range at different times, though I did have to scrape the disconnector slot on the NRM Colt GM right after I swaged the rails and refitted the slide about 2 years ago.
 
NOTHING! made by man is "UTTERLY" reliable!!!!:banghead: I carry a SP101 or Glock 21; and to say that I have NO DOUBT, would not be true. As the saying goes, death and taxes. However, I'm not worried about a failure. I'm 54 and been shooting since I was big enough to hold a gun and in all those years, I've had very few failures. Most, if not all, have be mmunitions related. Perhaps I've be very fortunate. Perhaps I don't shoot as much as some, and I doun't shoot as much as when I was younger, even though I fire enough to retain acceptable proficiency. Utterly... profection doen't exist and I don't live in utopia and you don't either. Purchase a high quality firearm, practice with it, maintain it in good condition, load it with quality ammunition and it will do what is required of it, if and when, called upon.
 
New to the forum. Like what I see. Slightly related to "utterly reliable", I just bought a used springfield P9. First time at the range today only 100 rounds. The safety jumps on several times and the long barrel and slide don't seat rounds all the way or always eject the spent casing. The standard barrel was flawless and accurate except the safety. Can anyone point me in the right direction? I don't plan to carry this one what with the ported long slide and aim point scope, but I would like it to work if I needed it to. Thanks.
 
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