Noise levels in real life situations

[BlueHeelerFl]

Never claimed it was "safe", just said it was much easier to deal with with no ear protection and one or two shots isn't going to make or break you in the long run. You can survive more than that and not get tinnitus.

Yet it did happen to me. So maybe you can't survive more than that.

 

[Walkalong]

Hearing loss is not the same as tinnitus. They should not be mistaken for each other.

While they are both can be caused by hearing damage or injury, hearing loss is exactly what it sounds like <so many puns>. It is simply a loss of hearing sensitivity also referred to as a threshold shift in the quietist tones you test at in a hearing test. Very often someone may not recognize a threshold shift that a test reveals if the loss is small. Tinnitus is the addition of discernable noise by the individual that has no external source. It is described much like pain, using subjective and objective terms (3 on a scale of 5, continuous, intermittent, only after going to a Metallica concert after a day on the range ... on a Friday, etc).

Many people have tinnitus without hearing loss (I did for years) and many have hearing loss without tinnitus.

BTW, there are medicines or medical conditions (high BP being common) that can induce tinnitus without any hearing damage from noise.

I have both, but had hearing loss long before the tinnitus. Shot plenty of guns with no ear protection as a kid, started wearing ear protection around age 19. Tinnitus around age 62.

 

[FL-NC]

Does anyone know of a source for decibel levels cartridges from different length barrels?

I always wear ear protection when shooting but in a self defense situation I will not have this luxury. I won't get a suppressor because I don't want to be on an ATF list.

I own many firearms but which one should I use (or get) for concealed carry, open carry or home defense.

Please don't respond: "Is your hearing more important that your life". That's just plain stupid. I also know about auditory exclusion. You might not hear the shots but the damage will still be there.

I am leaning towards a Ruger LCR 327 magnum loaded with 32 magnum or 32 long for concealed carry and a 8-10 inch 10/22 or AR pistol for home defense. I currently carry a S&W 351PD, love the small size and weight but it is loud. Don't bother telling me 22 lr is no good for home defense, 25 well placed rounds will take care of any 2 legged critter.

Suggestions are welcome.

I have some experience firing guns of various types without ear protection, indoors and out. Its real simple- its bad for your hearing all the time, and even worse in an enclosed area. Unless I used a crossbow or suppressed rifle, every deer I have bagged was tracked down while my ears were ringing. I have never heard of a police officer (except maybe swat types on a planned raid) even having the opportunity to use ear protection. I'm not sure what a decibel is, and I really don't care. I know from experience that if I have to fire a gun inside (again) without ear pro, it will "rock my world"- again. I also know that most fights of any type don't normally play out in the way you will visualize them. I would never compromise on caliber and use something like a 22 or some other boutique caliber in the hopes of mitigating a little less hearing damage in the event I find myself in another gunfight. I know what auditory exclusion is too. I have never experienced it, whether I was on the range, in a deer stand, or in a really bad situation. I have experienced temporary near-deafness in all of these places after gunfire, tho. Like a previous poster said- a AR pistol will definitely get you on a short list for hearing aids. The upside is that they also double as a flashbang when fired. Also, keep in mind that your gun may not be the only one being fired in the real world. Yes, someone else's gun will also damage your hearing when it is fired near you.

 

[FL-NC]

I don't remember a time when I didn't have tinnitus. I don't think about it unless its dead quiet and I'm trying to go to sleep. Or when someone mentions it. So thanks for whoever brought it up here. EEEEEEEEEEEEE!

 

[trackskippy]

Ive had every cricket that was in every John Wayne movie in my right ear, and the whine of an electric motor in my left, for as long as I can remember. Since my late teens, early 20's anyway.

My hearing aids actually help tune it out to a greater extent, and I really dont notice it much at all anymore when I have them on. The crickets in my right ear dont seem as near as bad when Im not wearing them either.

 

[Mosin77]

I found
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16OCpwCu0qo5Ot7OQ96d94a79YbUV8Yw_9g5cCPy5Ijc/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16OCpwCu0qo5Ot7OQ96d94a79YbUV8Yw_9g5cCPy5Ijc/edit?usp=sharing

this spreadsheet few days ago. It’s a fairly extensive and detailed spreadsheet of measured decibel levels, including load data, decibels at the ear vs near the barrel, suppressor data, and sometimes even dry fire decibels. I have never seen such a thorough collection of data before on this subject, so I thought I’d share it. It was compiled on the NFATalk forum and according to my source was all compiled with similar high end equipment so should be pretty reliable data, as this sort of thing goes.

One relevant takeaway: 1911s are generally not as relatively quiet as the usual google searches might suggest. 9mm 147s aren’t as quiet as logic would suggest either.

 

[hso]

I have never seen such a thorough collection of data before on this subject, so I thought I’d share it.

It is interesting. We can see that there's a range of dB for unsuppressed noise for the different makes/manufacturers of ammunition weight/velocity out of various firearms giving us an idea semi-quantitatively of the potential hearing damage.

 

[entropy]

If you are concerned about noise then stay away from AR pistols. They are as loud as it gets. I would think 38 Special would be easier on the ears although I wouldn't want to shoot it indoors or outdoors without earpro.

22LR will certainly kill but will it stop someone soon enough? There is a good chance someone could soak up those tiny rounds be able to kill you before they succumbed. I wouldn't use it unless it was my only choice.

I was 12 when I touched off a Super Vel 110gr. In the house. Since was a surprise to me, and everyone else in the house, it was LOUD! A couple years later, I was shooting Trap with no ear protection. It was very common back then. I played electric guitar LOUD, and then heard most of the loud sounds one hears in the Army; Huey's, 105 &155mm C-130's, all without any ear protection. We did wear the orange triple flange plugs on the range FWIW, which ain't much.
I have more tinnitus than hearing loss, surprisingly, but like FL-NC it usually doesn't bother me until someone mentions it.

If noise levels really are your major concern you might consider something like a 410 shotgun. IIRC they are slightly quieter than almost all rifles and pistols, quieter even than the small 22lr - 32acp. But even there the noise level is going to be will beyond any comfort level. Some spring activated air guns might be really quiet but how effective they might be is questionable.

But a hunting sling shot may be the ticket, certainly quiet and probably a higher shot rate than the quiet air guns and something that you could practice with even indoors in an urban environment.

Crossbow, reasonably quiet, powerful, a compound bow would be a bit quicker to reload, but none of us are Legolas.

You have far more to worry about should you have to fire indoors than any hearing loss connected to it.

 

[Mauser lover]

11" AR pistol in 300 Blk with subsonic loads. Shake awake red dot, mounted weapon light, sound forwarder on muzzle.

This. Or .45 ACP in an AR style pistol or carbine. 230 grain .45 at just barely subsonic will be basically the same energy on target as a 220 grain .30 at just barely subsonic. Delayed blowback will be quieter than straight blowback.

 

[aaaaa]

Some of the guns they are shooting at the indoor range are very loud with my hearing protection on and I wear foam inserts and the over the ear type at the same time. 40 years ago I shot 12 gauges outdoors and never wore hearing protection. I don't recall it being a problem.

 

[.455_Hunter]

.455 Webley out of a 6" MK VI and .38 S&W out of a 5" or 6" Enfield No. 2/Webley MK IV/Victory are adequate performers with minimal hearing impact. The key is a moderately heavy bullet at 600 to 700 fps using a small powder charge in a long barrel. Yes- your ears will ring a bit, but the follow-on sensory impact is small and not disorienting.

 

[trekker73]

OP I actually had similar thought processes just as I did a lot of damage to my hearing in the army. Not just hearing loss but tinnitus and some sounds actually sound louder and irrirating to me now. At one point I left the shooting sports because of it.

Anyway long story short I got back into it and after a lot of research what I ended up with and the least abrasive in close quarters or where I may not have time to get hearing protection in, is loaded down lever guns.

A 357 or 44 mag lever loaded subsonic is less annoying to me than the crack of CCI stinger from a short barrel 22 even without a supressor. Either calibre with an expanding hollowpoint at 900-1000fps( like a speer gold dot or remington golden sabre bullet) or cast flatnose doesnt hurt my ears( pain wise at least) and is vastly superior to 10/22 or even 22 mag from a rifle.

Decibel charts cover these rounds in handguns and full power in carbines. but you dont see much data on a 357 or 44 cal subsonic from a lever. Considering a 410 ga shotgun runs about 149 DB according to some charts and a subsonic 44 in a lever action is WAY quieter than that I would not be suprised if the reading is somewhere down in the mid 140's.

Obviously with a supressor its way lower again....

I also considered the 327 federal from a lever or the old 32-20 itself but from hunting experience what I found is the speed you need to push the lighter cals to be effective, aka supersonic, the crack and pressure is making them more obnoxious than the low speed 357 or 44 anyway. What you do gain with a faster moving 32 cal over a 44 special lever round is trajectory on small game but thats not a consideration for SD.

After a lot of fooling about back and forth the 357 in a lever action got the vote. A good mix of diametre, bullet weight, low noise at subsonic and it is a proven mankiller at these speeds. I eventually upgraded to 44 mag a few years later but this was mostly due to running subsonic bullets on hogs and I wanted more bullet weight.

 

[daniel craig]

Probably true when you're out of the house, but there's no reason you can't keep a good set of electronic hearing protection next to your weapon when you're home.

I know guys who do this. The real answer is just don't fire your weapon unless you *really* have to. Even if they're a home
invader they may just want to steal your crap. Is your crap worth more than your ears?

Get a crossbow at a fairly light draw so you can recock it quickly if you need to.

 

[Ironicaintit]

Even if they're a home
invader they may just want to steal your crap. Is your crap worth more than your ears?

Get a crossbow at a fairly light draw so you can recock it quickly if you need to.

Um no. If they ha e gone so far as to forcibly enter my home... it's no longer my job to weigh and consider what their true intent is. Ears be damned

 

[The Night Rider]

I won't get a suppressor because I don't want to be on an ATF list.

You're already on an ATF list.

 

[hso]

Even if they're a home
invader they may just want to steal your crap. Is your crap worth more than your ears?

That is an interesting post. Someone that is burglerizing your home in your absence isn't the same as a home invader that has entered your home knowing you are home. If you come home to a burglary in process you have the opportunity to withdraw. When someone enters your home with you and your loved ones in it you can not assume they're just there "to steal your crap". Your life is reasonably in danger when someone breaks in knowing you are home.

 

[Ethan Verity]

Probably true when you're out of the house, but there's no reason you can't keep a good set of electronic hearing protection next to your weapon when you're home.

That's what I do, I think it's a good idea!


Though I remember suggesting such in the past, and being thoroughly roasted by the Tactical Timmy's of the internet gun forums. Apparently, if someone breaks into my home, they will be instantly teleported into my upstairs bedroom within the 1 second needed to dawn these muffs. Eh... I'll take my chances.

 

[trackskippy]

I think "reality" here with the home invasion thing (or any other situation for that matter where you need your gun), if you aren't wearing it every waking moment, you dont have it, simple as that, and fancy ear muffs or cheap ear plugs or anything inbetween, have them or not, arent likely to even be a thought in that moment.

 

[citizenconn]

I live by myself in a house with 5 cats and a blind and deaf dog. I have electronic hearing protection staged in all of the areas in the house, garage and pool/toolshed where I have home defense firearms. Maybe I won't have the few seconds it will take to put them on before I engage a threat, but that is my plan, same as I have extra loaded mags and first aid kits staged in a number of places throughout the house.

That is actually my backup plan, but I won't discuss the primary one since you are not interested in suppressors.

If I had to pick one of my home defense weapons knowing I didn't have access to hearing protection I'd likely pick a .45 acp pistol.

 

[trackskippy]

Who said we arent interested? Or prepared?



This one is sitting right next to me as I type, and is close by the bed when I sleep.



But if the door were to come crashing in right this second, the response would be with the Glock 17 in my waistband, and it would be an instant response, and all the ear plugs that are in my pocket, and the electric muffs that are hanging elsewhere, are all pretty much useless in the moment. I dont have to go run around and look for it, or try and get it ready, and if I move it comes with me.

As I said, if its not on you, you dont have it. Simple as that.

Now, if the dogs go off, and the perimeter alarms start going off, and Ive got a little warning, sure, I'll pick up the AR and go ahead and load it up. Why wouldn't I?

 

[aaaaa]

I think "reality" here with the home invasion thing (or any other situation for that matter where you need your gun), if you aren't wearing it every waking moment, you dont have it, simple as that, and fancy ear muffs or cheap ear plugs or anything inbetween, have them or not, arent likely to even be a thought in that moment.

Yes, in the panic of the moment, one should first reach for their gun. Well I saw one bit of advice somewhere that one should pull their pants on first. For me that is good advice as my J-frame is loaded in the pocket. Then grab my semi-auto from where I keep it and I am ready. Throw a heavy piece of furniture across the door, dial 911 and hunker down.

 

[benEzra]

I have read somewhere that the amplitude of the sound is determined by the gas pressure at muzzle exit (I have in my head that 3000 psi is a ballpark figure) and bore size (which would be why shotguns are so loud even though they are lower pressure). Longer barrels result in a lower pressure at muzzle exit, and shorter barrels result in higher pressure when it uncorks. Gas volume undoubtedly plays a role as well.

One reason the .357 is SO much louder than other guns (even other high-pressure cartridges) is probably that it is usually fired in revolvers, and the barrel-cylinder gap is venting gas at tens of thousands of psi, much higher than the pressure when the bullet exits the muzzle.

I will also add that ported and compensated guns, and guns with muzzle brakes, are louder than unported or unbraked guns.

 

[westernrover]

Yes -- muzzle pressure is a key determiner of the sound pressure level. Muzzle pressure is especially a function of barrel length since the longer the barrel, the more time and space the pressure has to drop before the bullet exits.

The bore size also has an effect. Bore size helps provide more gas expansion space as the bullet travels down the barrel. Pressure drop will be more rapid in a big bore than in a small bore. However, 7000 psi from a small bore is less than 7000 psi from a big bore because the big bore has more inches for those pounds per square inch. So if a shotgun muzzle has 4500 psi of muzzle pressure, it could be louder than a .22 rifle that also has 4500 psi of muzzle pressure.

Ported and compensated guns aren't louder per se, but because they direct more of the sound toward the shooter, they're louder for the shooter. Without a muzzle device, the greatest sound pressure is directed downrange. Muzzle devices re-direct pressure upwards, sideways, and at angles such that more of the sound comes back to the shooter.

https://sadefensejournal.com/barrel-length-studies-in-5-56mm-nato-weapons/

 

[KevininPa]

Does anyone know of a source for decibel levels cartridges from different length barrels?

I always wear ear protection when shooting but in a self defense situation I will not have this luxury. I won't get a suppressor because I don't want to be on an ATF list.

I own many firearms but which one should I use (or get) for concealed carry, open carry or home defense.

Please don't respond: "Is your hearing more important that your life". That's just plain stupid. I also know about auditory exclusion. You might not hear the shots but the damage will still be there.

I am leaning towards a Ruger LCR 327 magnum loaded with 32 magnum or 32 long for concealed carry and a 8-10 inch 10/22 or AR pistol for home defense. I currently carry a S&W 351PD, love the small size and weight but it is loud. Don't bother telling me 22 lr is no good for home defense, 25 well placed rounds will take care of any 2 legged critter.

Suggestions are welcome.

You bought a firearm. You're on a few lists already.

 

[aaaaa]

Yes -- muzzle pressure is a key determiner of the sound pressure level. Muzzle pressure is especially a function of barrel length since the longer the barrel, the more time and space the pressure has to drop before the bullet exits.

I thought one reason a rifle has more velocity than a pistol is the longer barrel allowed more time for the pressure to build, whereas a snubby lets most of the pressure go to waste in the big flash. So I am thinking that until full pressure builds up, the longer barrel would get louder than say a 1-inch barrel that the bullet clears way before full pressure can build. But it may be that peak pressure (depends on burn rate of the powder too) might be achieved in only say 4 inches, so then pressure would drop, and what you say makes sense. Even if the pressure drops, it still keeps the bullet moving if not accelerating since it is greater than zero.