Non semi auto rifle for self-defense

[TheProf]

Guys... educate me on my first rifle. It's going to be between a lever action rifle vs. bolt action rifle (with magazine fed).

1. Which would have advantageous for self-defense? and why? Which would be quicker to make multiple shots?


2. I'm looking for a caliber that is more than adequate for defending my property and maybe impromtu protection against cayotees. Any suggestions? I prefer a easy to find (popular) caliber.

I'm more of a handgun type of guy...and know nothing about rifles. My first thought was to get a lever action 30-30 type of rifle...but was not sure just how safe it would be with being "tube fed". Is there a danger of the rounds going off if the gun drops due to bullets lining up with the primer? I heard that you had to use "rounded tip" ammo? Can anyone verify this?

Thanks.

 

[Geckgo]

30-30 lever action, of them choices. Don't use pointy bullets and you should be fine.

 

[Art Eatman]

For a relatively new rifle-shooter, I'd figure that rapid but aimed fire would likely be a bit faster with a lever gun over a bolt action. Practice, though, is the key.

Cartridge for coyotes and maybe bad guys? Odds are that a .357 would work as well as anything. If you handload for your handguns, it would be a piece of cake for you to work up some hot loads. I messed around with a slow-burning powder and 110-grain bullet for near-2,000 ft/sec in a 6", so odds are a rifle would push a 125-grain bullet to near or maybe a bit over 2,000.

Lever actions with tube magazines have always used round-nosed bullets until Hornady came out with the soft-tipped "Leverevolution" pointy bullet.

 

[benEzra]

+1 on a lever-action .357 for non-semiauto HD. It will probably be faster shot-to-shot than a bolt-action and much handier (or at least it would be for me). Loaded with something like 125gr JHP, it'd be a very potent carbine; some lighter .357 loads approach 7.62x39mm velocities out of a carbine length barrel, as I recall.

If you are interested, Rob Pincus put out a video called "Fundamentals of Defensive Long Guns" that had a segment on using lever-actions for HD. Basically, he recommended storing the gun in a safe place with the magazine full, chamber loaded, hammer at the half-cock position (or whatever the safety position is), safety on. It's very quickly to employ that way. Or, you can store it magazine full, chamber empty. And program yourself to cycle the action automatically whenever you shoot.

Added on edit: The cover has changed a little, but I *think* this is the one I have:

http://www.icestore.us/servlet/the-38/DVD15-dsh-DLGF-"Defensive-Long-Gun/Detail

 

[TheProf]

1. I'm assuming that the .357 round is exactly the same .357 used in revolvers (I was thinking hollow points variety too... I have yet to see a .357 fmj). Correct?

2. What would be the effective range of such a caliber in a rifle? I realize that most HD situations would probably be across room distances...but if for the very remote situation that I had to return fire in an open field.... what would be the effective range against two-legged predators?

3. And would this be able to take .38 special... (in the same way .357 handguns can)?

 

[isc]

yes, .357 mag in a lever gun is the same round as for a revolver. effective range from a rifle is about 200 yds, but hitting anything past 100 yds with accuracy will require you to know the range so you can adjust your hold over.

I would suggest a remmington .223 pump for your stated purposes. It's basically a remmington 870 pump shotgun chambered for ,223. You can buy cheap surplus ammo and the range and accuracy will be far greater than what you could get from a pistol caliber carbine. It will also accept USGI 30 rd mags
http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm

 

[R.W.Dale]

The Remington 7615 instantly comes to my mind.

OP, you say that you're a relatively new shooter. Do you know that a "half cock" notch is? If not I'm gonna buck the trend here and say that a levergun is one of the worst possible choices you could make for a HD rifle. ESPECALLY a marlin with the "oh #^#}} the safety was on" crossbolt


Flame me all you want but IMO it's a terrible idea to recommend to a new shooter the most AD prone platform mankind has yet devised for the most stressful, no time to think, no second chance uses possible.

 

[sixgunner455]

That Remington pump rifle isn't a bad option, but neither is the .357 carbine.

Some .357 levers will cycle .38 Specials, but some have trouble because of the shorter OAL of the cartridge. If you're already set up to load for either of those, then I would just get one and have fun with it. They are great little carbines, low recoil, and cheap to shoot. And they hold more rounds than the .30-30. If you already have a .30-30, the higher capacity isn't a reason to replace it, but if you are getting a lever for HD, IMHO, it's smarter to get a .357. Shoots pretty flat to about 100 yards, and that should cover HD for most situations. And you can hunt at the same ranges with it - preferably with a 158 gr or heavier bullet, though.

If I were shopping for my absolute first rifle, I'd get a .22, probably, because you will develop more quickly as a rifleman with one - because you can afford to shoot it more. They are also available in bolt and lever formats, so ... you could end up eventually with both a centerfire and a .22 that allows you to shoot something similar to your HD rifle for less money. I do that with a Ruger 10/22 and an AR15.

 

[TheProf]

I'm not familiar with the "half cock" concept on a lever rifle. I once owned a derringer handgun with this feature...but not sure if this is the same with a lever rifle.

In this half cock position on a rifle with a round in the chamber, could one simply pull the trigger and have the gun fire...or does one need to pull back the hammer prior to pulling the trigger?

Now with the Rem 7615, I just looked it up...and its a "police model". Is this legal for non-police use?

 

[i loves my gun]

The Remington 7615 instantly comes to my mind.

how could such a an ugly gun instatly come to mind?

anyway im going to go against the crowd and say bolt, reach out and touch them first before they come in your 200 yd zone, just my instant thoughts

Edit: easy cleaning, easy maintenance, all that good stuff, not to say the lever not easy maintenance, but total take down can be confusing to a new shooter

 

[RaceM]

I'd go with a lever action in 357 as well. Plenty of stopping power out to adequate range (200 yards sounds about right). It'd have a speed advantage over a bolt, but as with any weapon if there are more bad guys than you've got bullets it gets interesting. I wouldn't make too much of the speed advantage because it's putting lead on target that counts, not how much lead you throw out there. As to the safety, just run the gun chamber empty, magazine full, safety off. No matter what you end up getting you gotta practice a LOT, or it won't matter what it is.

 

[M1key]

Lose the non-semi for HD idea if you want fast, effective follow-up shots.

AR, Mini-14, Saiga, or SKS


M

 

[SpookyPistolero]

Is there a reason you aren't considering a pump shotgun? Seems it fits your requirements quite well, and is very straight-forward in its function. No reliability woes. Half the price (or less) of most of the options currently being considered.

 

[bigfatdave]

1. I'm assuming that the .357 round is exactly the same .357 used in revolvers (I was thinking hollow points variety too... I have yet to see a .357 fmj). Correct?
2. What would be the effective range of such a caliber in a rifle? I realize that most HD situations would probably be across room distances...but if for the very remote situation that I had to return fire in an open field.... what would be the effective range against two-legged predators?
3. And would this be able to take .38 special... (in the same way .357 handguns can)?

1 - yep - .357mag HP, or semiwadcutter, or specialized rifle loads
2 - a good lever rifle will deliver as far as you can see without optics, if you're talking about coyote (or whatever) torso accuracy. Your skills won't eclipse a good levergun for a while if you're new to rifles, don't worry about that.
3 - some will, some won't - the ultimate solution would be to reload your own powderpuff loads in .357 cases, if you reload (I don't)

I'm not familiar with the "half cock" concept on a lever rifle. I once owned a derringer handgun with this feature...but not sure if this is the same with a lever rifle.

Similar concept, at least. A position where the hammer is NOT resting on the firing pin but is also NOT ready to fire. So the cun isn't cocked, the hammer is resting on a notch that the trigger can't disengage, and if dropped the hammer shouldn't jar loose or get bonked onto the FP and set off the chambered round.
So no, if you pull the trigger with the hammer at half-cock, you'll get no response at all on a properly functioning traditional lever-action rifle.

If I were shopping for my absolute first rifle, I'd get a .22, probably, because you will develop more quickly as a rifleman with one - because you can afford to shoot it more. They are also available in bolt and lever formats, so ... you could end up eventually with both a centerfire and a .22 that allows you to shoot something similar to your HD rifle for less money. I do that with a Ruger 10/22 and an AR15.

and this is true also, the gun to learn with is a .22 and a big pile of ammunition over a lot of range trips. In the long run, a .22 pays for itself in ammo costs alone ... if you're setting up to be a proficient shooter.
That being said, if I were the OP, and was dead-set on a non-semiauto carbine for defensive uses, I'd take a lever rifle in .357 or .44, and I'd avoid any with excess controls like safety levers/buttons/whatever ... just a lever, trigger, and a hammer with a half-cock safety. And then I'd get myself a cheap (used if possible) lever in .22, probably a Henry - and shoot about 100 rounds out of it for every centerfire round I shot out of the bigger one.

===

But:
Why can't it be semiauto?
Why must it be a long gun?
Why can't it be a shotgun?
Why not a KelTec sub2000 or HiPoint PCC?
Why not use a handgun you're already proficient with and check out all your friends' long guns for features you do or don't like?

 

[TheProf]

I bought an Rem 870...12 ga....but the recoil is horrible... Ever since then, I'm pretty much of settled on handguns. But... then the idea of rifles had me thinking... Perhaps less recoil than the 12 ga. ....but more power than a handgun.

Why not a semi auto? I was trying to avoid the "evil black gun" look.

 

[i loves my gun]

if you dont like 12ga recoil, be careful that you dont get a lightwieght (8lb or under) .243

 

[lonestardiver]

For HD with a lever action the shorter trapper model would be a great choice...easier to maneuver in the house. Like the .357 mentioned earlier the 44mag is a good round too... makes a good hog popper or puts venison on the table...will also easily handle coyotes too.
Plus you get about 8-10 rounds to work with depending on the model. My Rossi 1892 trapper only holds 8 rounds in the magazine... if that is not enough then we have a problem and I should have picked up the AR instead...

 

[Kliegl]

Hey Prof, I don't mean to be offensive, but worrying about the PC-ness of a weapon is the absolute last thing you need to worry about.

Semi-autos are it for home defense in rifles. However, if you don't want an AR platform, for looks or otherwise, there are more "civilian" looking guns like a Ruger Mini 14. Get a wood stocked one, it shoots .223, and you can get 5 round mags for the polished hunter look, then jack in the 20 rounder for nighttime sentry duty.

Of course, you could ratchet up the badness and get an M1A in wooden stocks. Nothing screams I am going to get you Korean War Style than one of those.

 

[twestbrook10]

another vote for the Remington 7615

 

[Furncliff]

I reload for my Marlin 1894c...

After a lot of experimenting I settled on a .357 magnum load that gives me 1950fps and is pretty flat out to 100 yards. That's a fair thump and I wouldn't hesitate to use it on coyotes or as a HD rifle. The .357 is one of those calibers that really gains something coming out of a long barrel. Buffalo Bore makes some that approach 30-30 velocities. I have practiced with .38 special, but I'll be going to a light .357 load in the future. Mine is quite reliable with just about any bullet except WC.

The only thing is, these can be hard to find. A good sign really.

You could go with the Marlin lever in 30-30. There are some articles floating around about cutting the barrel down, resulting in a very handy HD weapon.

 

[Panzercat]

1) Lever will be vastly superior to any flavor of bolt when it comes to rate of fire. Some people have broached a pump, and those are fine too depending on your needs.

2) A 30-30 will do anything you ask of it out to 200 yards as long as you're not being overrun by zombie-bear-water-buffalo. If you're close to Jusenkyo, I'd start looking into a 45-70. Tubular stacking is fine. Any 30-30 round you find on the shelf today is blunted to avoid the chain fire scenario a spitzer point round would create, thus negating your concerns entirely. Hornday makes a flexible tip spitzer round, but it's the sole exception.

On the .357...
A .357 is exactly the same round as a pistol but driven to higher pressure because of the longer barrel. It is fine up to coyotes. As long as you don't intend on anything much larger or at longer ranges, a 357 and 223 are fine.

On recoil...
None of the discussed calibers will come anything close to a low recoil 12g slug. If I have to offer a descriptive, the 30-30 will produce a solid, weighty thump while the .223 has more snap to it. Neither will tenderize your arm like a .700 caliber slug.

Recommendation...
Purely based on everything the thread has discussed, I'd say a .357 is fine. As a lever, it gives you plenty of rounds, can be found in a variety of models (Marlin, Rossi, etc etc) and is reasonably priced. Your rate rate of fire is decent, as is your range. You'll never have to deal with clips, though your you will always be capped at around 9-10 rounds. It's horribly easy to keep a lever rifle topped off, however, and that's probably the biggest advantage over the pumps marginal increase in rate of fire. Once your clip is done you either have a new clip or you're SOL. Arguments can be made back and forth here, so I won't push one over the other too deeply. In either case, a lever with a buttstock carrying extra rounds and a sling with the same is a formidable high endurance tool and a clip only introduces more stuff that can go wrong, IMO.

If you were looking to engage something bigger than wild dogs, I'd say go for the 30-30. For anything less, including people, the .357 is probably the better choice. I have a lever and am quite happy. It also has class, something the Remington mentioned here will never have.

 

[mdThanatos]

.357 lever action. Short carbine preferred. Mine holds 10 .357 rounds after clipping the mag spring a few coils but stock it held 9. It doesn't kick for squat nor does it weigh a lot. Plus it will give you a reason to purchase a .357 wheelgun, always have to have a pair like this, its a rule I believe.

 

[argyle1812]

lee enfield

 

[R.W.Dale]

Now with the Rem 7615, I just looked it up...and its a "police model". Is this legal for non-police use?

yes yes they are

A 7615 combined with a pair of thirty round P-mags gives you enough firepower on tap that it'd take 10 minutes of reloading a jackguns tube mag to match.

Advantages of a pump compared to a levergun

speed- sorry guys but a pump IS faster especially once you factor in reload time. I've owned both I know

Accuracy- No contest, my 7615P shot like it was a heavy barreled varmint rifle, I shot mine in 200/300m CMP matches and was competitive

Safety- Simple push button that blocks the trigger, vs the marlin that only blocks the hammer but lets it fall halfway. In a HD situation you may be faced with needing to make the weapon 100% safe FAST. With a pump you drop the mag and open the slide EMPTY in less time than it takes to say it. A leveraction will require you to run every round through the action before the gun is out of action

Ammo- a bit of a wash 38's are cheap but .223 is just as cheap and usually a bit more getable in large bulk lots and can fire NATO milsurp

 

[Panzercat]

Advantages of a pump compared to a levergun

speed- sorry guys but a pump IS faster especially once you factor in reload time. I've owned both I know

Accuracy- No contest, my 7615P shot like it was a heavy barreled varmint rifle, I shot mine in 200/300m CMP matches and was competitive

Safety- Simple push button that blocks the trigger, vs the marlin that only blocks the hammer but lets it fall halfway. In a HD situation you may be faced with needing to make the weapon 100% safe FAST. With a pump you drop the mag and open the slide EMPTY in less time than it takes to say it. A leveraction will require you to run every round through the action before the gun is out of action

Ammo- a bit of a wash 38's are cheap but .223 is just as cheap and usually a bit more getable in large bulk lots and can fire NATO milsurp

I'll give you speed, but accuracy is by and large a shooter thing and we'll be arguing that and ballistics until the cows come home. I also think you're laying it on a tad thick for the safety, but I'll let that one slide too. I'll even throw you a bone and say a pump lets you stay on target more naturally than a lever between shots (which is not to say it's particularly hard with a lever as it is).

Now lets talk price. I'm sure we can all agree Bud's is a fair place to shop around, right?

Remington 7615 .233 ...$737 (MSRP $922)
Marlin 1894 .357 ...$540 (MSRP $700ish Marlin doesn't publish this directly)
Rossi 1894 .357 ...$424 (MSRP $577)
Marlin 336 30-30 ...$382 (thrown in just for the hell of it)

I tried to match furniture across the models and threw the MSRP off the manufacture's website in as a baseline, but damn you're paying a premium for a lot of subjective and opinionated gain. Hell, I can get a vastly superior Keltec SU16 for less money. And of course, sure you can find a 7615 cheaper somewhere. Pawn. Auction. Whatever. But as we're arguing that fact, let's remember how many orphaned leverguns there are out there looking for homes at similarly reduced prices.