Non semi auto rifle for self-defense

[R.W.Dale]

Remington 7615 .233 ...$737 (MSRP $922)
Marlin 1894 .357 ...$540 (MSRP $700ish Marlin doesn't publish this directly)
Rossi 1894 .357 ...$424 (MSRP $577)
Marlin 336 30-30 ...$382 (thrown in just for the hell of it)

The street price for 7615's is a great deal cheaper than that and getting out of production quickly making them a moot point. Other than that the only bone I have to pick is the inclusion of the Rossi/Puma. Ive owned one of those too and they are very much a "you finish it" kit gun and if mine was any example of what's typical they're nowhere near of a reliability level to trust your life to. A fine cowboy action toy after you get it worked over but not a life or death gun by any stretch.

The marlins are nice but not exactly cheap new or used either and for some folks it isn't ALWAYS about price.


There is always the overlooked semiautomatic ruger 44 mags if you want a "PC" looking long gun that can lay down the law. Another would be the Marlin "camp" series autoloaders. A stock SKS doesn't exactly scream EVIL and BLACK either ya know.

 

[CGRifleman]

Just out of curiosity, why not a semi-auto?

 

[Panzercat]

You're right of course; It isn't always about the price. But it isn't always about capacity either. Or a marginal increase in RoF. Once you start using that argument, it can be applied to anything.

Until the op throws in on what he actually values, it tends to be a pretty circular argument on what "it" may or may not be about. As an aside, I'm noticing gunbroker doesn't have many (two) 7615s since actual street value was called into question. Whether you like rossi or not, you'll trip over an 1894 by somebody in mass quantities across a wide spectrum of prices no matter where you look.

With that, I'll abdicate any further debate since I don't want to run this topic into the ground.

But I have to wonder about CGrifleman's question too... Why not a semi? If we're talking clips and .223s, we're already halfway there, really. A mini 14 is all but dying to join this conversation.

 

[sixgunner455]

If the reason you don't want a semi is that you're really worried about the "evil black rifle" syndrome, you have options that include having a semiauto:

1- get an AR and paint it some other color. Get 3 or 4 twenty or thirty round P-mags moulded in the color of plastic to match your paint job, and call it a day, unless you want a red-dot on it. My wife's friend we took shooting last week called it the "video game" sight.
2- get a Mini-14 with a nice wood stock and some of the new factory twenty rounders.

 

[nyc71]

Marlin 336 30-30, next week I'm getting a 1894 in 357mag.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"- Benjamin Franklin

 

[R.W.Dale]

Panzercat your 1894 marlin market is vastly different than ours. It was close to two years surfing gunshows and gun shops within a 150 mile radius before I managed to snag one under $500 used and even then it came with a huge "Ken" carved into the stock. Round here pistol cal marlins are VERY rare and VERY highly priced.

Heck over the past couple years I've noticed even the dirt common 30/30's used are starting to climb farther and farther north of $300 with each deer season.


The OP mentions property and coyotes. To me IME this implies a bit more reach than pistol cal carbines of any type offer. Coyotes are pretty crafty and don't tend to hang around within 100 or even 200 yds of people very long and in fact pistol cal rifles are illegal for coyotes in my state "not larger than 30 cal"

Perhaps we should be focusing more on full powered rifles in light recoiling calibers. Since the OP seems to be somewhat recoil adverse.

Tapatalk post via IPhone.

 

[Dr.Rob]

I know in real rifle calibers like 30-06 a pump gun can be almost as fast as an automatic in accurate shooting.

Problem is I'm not sure there's a really GOOD pump action pistol cal rifle out there, though Taurus made one called the Thunderbolt in 357 or 45 Colt.

 

[Kendal Black]

My first thought was to get a lever action...

Your first thought was a good one, for this type proved quite useful for the jobs you outline, before the days when light and compact semi-autos were well proven and widely available. They work as well as they ever did; it's just that there is now something more functional.

Why not a semi auto? I was trying to avoid the "evil black gun" look.

If that is all it is about, there are wood and blue steel semi-autos: The M1 Carbine, Ruger Mini, etc. Would an artful dodge of that sort deal with this problem?

I bought an Rem 870...12 ga....but the recoil is horrible...

Have you tried reduced recoil ammo? A squashy rubber butt pad? Careful attention to your posture and your hold on the gun when you fire? The 12 bore gun can be intimidating at first, but with a bit of attention to detail and some time getting used to it, it becomes, IMHO, the best self defense weapon on earth.

 

[Panzercat]

Panzercat your 1894 marlin market is vastly different than ours. It was close to two years surfing gunshows and gun shops within a 150 mile radius before I managed to snag one under $500 used and even then it came with a huge "Ken" carved into the stock. Round here pistol cal marlins are VERY rare and VERY highly priced.

Heck over the past couple years I've noticed even the dirt common 30/30's used are starting to climb farther and farther north of $300 with each deer season.


The OP mentions property and coyotes. To me IME this implies a bit more reach than pistol cal carbines of any type offer. Coyotes are pretty crafty and don't tend to hang around within 100 or even 200 yds of people very long and in fact pistol cal rifles are illegal for coyotes in my state "not larger than 30 cal"

Perhaps we should be focusing more on full powered rifles in light recoiling calibers. Since the OP seems to be somewhat recoil adverse.

Tapatalk post via IPhone.

I didn't mention a market at all, let alone mine.

That said, certain marlins are getting harder to get than others since they got bought out by... wait for it... Remington. That alone is killing availability and pushing up prices, but even with that I sneezed and still found five on gunbroker without even trying. Seriously, there are other manufactures besides Marlin or Rossi for that matter. Henry, for example. No matter how rare you seem to think they are, they're out there. I mean, I could do this all day.

@Dr Rob
The Remington 7600 line. Was close to getting one myself. I would stay far away from the Taurus thunderbolt line tho. Plagued by feed issues. It is, however, the only affordable lightning reproduction I know of.

To Kendals point-- If I actually liked Ruger as a company, I would probably admit that the Mini 14 is a pretty decent looking rifle that doesn't scream black ops. Think about it, op.

 

[lizziedog1]

re:the prof

...but if for the very remote situation that I had to return fire in an open field.... what would be the effective range against two-legged predators?

If you shoot someone in an open field, you better have a good attorney and/or a very understanding DA.

 

[Kendal Black]

And Now For Something Completely Different

Here is a blog post I did last year about fast manipulation of the bolt action.

What I mean to suggest here is that fast firing with a bolt action is not beyond the realm of the possible. You would think it is, to watch the gaffes of many people: removing the butt from their shoulders to cycle the action, not keeping their eyes downrange, etc.

Here is an interesting THR thread, "World record for aimed bolt-action rifle fire," which includes some valuable links.

A bolt action wouldn't be my first choice for a self defense rifle, but if it were what I had, I would practice the "Tommy finger" technique until I had it working smoothly and reliably, and feel satisfied. In America, particularly, we tend to forget that the bolt action was actually the most common type of fighting rifle for much of the last century (we got away from it as quickly as we could).

Actually, though, I think the OP's best option is to get some reduced recoil shells and some pointers on stance and hold, and learn to rock the shotgun. Seriously.

 

[TheProf]

What i meant by "returning fire in an open field against two legged predators" = I realize that such a self-defense situation would be remote... but since I am no longer able to move quickly (old age creeping up) to cover and concealment....

I could theoretically find myself in the middle of my property (or any open field for that matter) where I need to defend myself if I am being fired upon from a distance. Of course, retreat /escape would be my first option...if possible.

In reply to the suggestions... I will investigate .357 lever rifles.

 

[christcorp]

No doubt that a 357 magnum lever action would be a fine choice. Good on coyotes. Good on deer out to 125 yards. And yes, it will do fine on 2 legged creatures.

There's a lot of people who think the rifles; mainly black semi-auto type, are the best home defense weapon there is. Well most of those people simply look at it from a caliber/ballistics stand point. Unfortunately, that is not always what's most practical. While ballistically, a semi-auto .223/7.62x39 is a great home defense caliber, it's not always practical. If I was protecting my "Property", meaning outside, then I'd have absolutely no problem grabbing one of my black rifles. But inside, especially at 2am waking up from a sound sleep, my black rifles are not the most practical. While my house is about 3,000 square feet, with all the twists and turns of rooms and hallways, the furthest shot would most likely be no more than about 20 feet. At that distance, a semi-auto rifle is not very practical. At those distances, it is too easy for the weapon to be struggled with. Plus, with all the corners in my house, it could be difficult trying to raise up and aim the rifle.

I have MANY guns for many different reasons. My primary 2am, being woke up in the middle of the night gun, is my 357 magnum S&W revolver. It's simple to use when your brain is still half asleep at 2am; distances are such that the revolver becomes very accurate. My wife also has one. My semi-auto rifles; or actually ANY of my rifles; are not primarily for home defense. Now, PROPERTY DEFENSE is a totally different matter.

But if you just had to have a rifle for home defense, and you wanted a dual purpose rifle that wasn't semi-auto, then the lever action 357 magnum is the perfect choice. Marlin and Rossi both make excellent lever actions.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Panzercat:

My understanding is the Taurus was NOT a clone of the lightning, but a scaled up version of a rimfire design. Externally they look the same but the guts are supposed to be different.

Beretta, Pedersoli, USFA and several others have marketed a "Lightning" rifle and I'm still not convinced they all aren't using the same parts.

My dad hunted with a Remington 760 Carbine in .30-06 for many years, I saw him make very fast follow up shots.The 7615 (that's the one that takes AR mags) might be the solution you'd like, however it comes in one color: evil black.

 

[Rail Driver]

A lever gun will be faster on follow up shots, but there's a lot to be said for a magazine fed bolt action as well. It really boils down to which one you're more comfortable with.

 

[Cosmoline]

Flame me all you want but IMO it's a terrible idea to recommend to a new shooter the most AD prone platform mankind has yet devised for the most stressful, no time to think, no second chance uses possible.

Any firearm is dangerous if you don't know how to use it properly. Why would you be dropping the hammer to half cock in that situation? If there is reason enough to cycle, there's reason enough not to go to half cock. Don't want to fire, don't pull the trigger.

 

[john wall]

[/IMG]

1894 Winchester in 30/30. It will DESTROY a car body, defeat almost any body armor. Devastating fight stopper on a two legged predator. Recoil is very manageable, incidentally makes a truly superior game rifle. A set of Williams peep sights with a .343" small white front sight makes it lightning fast to shoot well.

The idea of being inoffensive in court is not bad either.

This cop KNOWS guns.

 

[Justin Holder]

The new Ruger 77/357 might be worth looking into.

john, ^that pic is awesome!

 

[ECVMatt]

I am going to go with a leveraction in .30/30. Although I like the .357 in leverguns, it does have some feeding issues resulting from the straight case. Some folks never seem to have no jams, while other experience it quite often. The .30/30 is a bottle necked cartridge and thus less prone to have feeding issues. The model 336 is also much easier to find at gun stores and pawn shops than the 1894's and are about 1/2 the price of a .357 around here.

Federal makes a great round for the .30/30 that would have several advantages for a rural/HD rifle. Here it is:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=927609

It is a 125 HP. It has light recoil, decent velocity, and good accuracy. I used to exchange emails with a retired police officer from a rural area who used a Winchester 94 with this load to kill several wounded deer and one bad guy. All were taken with a single shot. He said the load was very effective and caused immediate incapacitation at about 60 yards on the bad guy.

Remington also offers this round which is about equal to the .357, maybe a little better:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=330519

It is a great starter round for the .30/30

Once you feel good with the .30/30 you can always step up to these and get close to treading on the .308 Winchester:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=775263

The .30/30 is a very flexible round.

I would look for a Marlin 336 over the Winchester. I have both and love them, but the Marlins are cheaper, easier to disassemble, easier to scope or add a receiver sight, and more accurate than the Winchesters. Winchesters have also become more difficult to find are a currently in a very limited production status.

Marlin has also reintroduced the Spike Horn this year and that is a dandy little carbine.

Hope this helps,

Matt

 

[Bud Tugly]

My first choice for HD is a shotgun with buckshot, but I also have a Winchester model 94 in .30-30 that I wouldn't hesitate to use.

Nothing wrong with a .357 carbine, but about the only advantage it has over a .30-30 is that it holds a few extra shells and has a bit less recoil. Standard .30-30 rounds beat the .357 in stopping power and range, and the Hornaday Leverution ammo makes it a 200 yard round for coyotes and varmints. Also, lever guns in .30-30 have been around a very long time so finding a good used one for a decent price is much more likely than a .357.

The real bottom line is to pick the gun that feels right to you and then shoot it often enough that cycling and reloading it are second nature to you. IMO that's FAR more important than all the fine points about caliber and platform when your life is on the line.

 

[Cryogaijin]

Of the options present, I'm also going to take C, remmy 7615.

 

[FAS1]

Lever action in 30-30. I own a Marlin and I like this gun a lot. It is my all-around rifle and can handle most tasks.

 

[wlewisiii]

Just another vote for the .30-30 lever action.

 

[El Tejon]

Why have you excluded a slide action weapon?

 

[Cal-gun Fan]

Hey Prof, I don't mean to be offensive, but worrying about the PC-ness of a weapon is the absolute last thing you need to worry about.

Semi-autos are it for home defense in rifles. However, if you don't want an AR platform, for looks or otherwise, there are more "civilian" looking guns like a Ruger Mini 14. Get a wood stocked one, it shoots .223, and you can get 5 round mags for the polished hunter look, then jack in the 20 rounder for nighttime sentry duty.

Of course, you could ratchet up the badness and get an M1A in wooden stocks. Nothing screams I am going to get you Korean War Style than one of those.

You do know they didn't have m14s in the Korean war right?
Why does a home defense gun have to be a military style gun though, a lever or pump shotgun would be fine. It's not about "the badness" as you put it,
It's about having something that works well in close quarters that won't overpenetrate and that you don't mind the police taking away for evidence if there was a shooting.