Non semi auto rifle for self-defense

[Jason_W]

Interesting -- I wonder which 125-grain bullets are doing all the reported disintegrating...?

My guess would be various hollowpoints. I'm sure a 110 grain HP would self annihilate against a target out of a carbine as well. Might make a great woodchuck round, though.

 

[JFrame]

My guess would be various hollowpoints. I'm sure a 110 grain HP would self annihilate against a target out of a carbine as well. Might make a great woodchuck round, though.

Thank you.

I think I'll stick with my 180-grainers, but won't hesitate to stoke any JSP's in reserve...


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[benEzra]

I've never fired a centerfire rifle in a confined space. Would the lower pressure of a shotgun blast in that same confined space make any real difference in terms of negative effect on the shooter? Or at a certain point, is loud just loud?

They are both about the same in terms of peak loudness, and are comparable to typical 9mm/.40/.45 pistols, though the sound spectrum and pulse duration may differ somewhat. It is true that the shotgun runs less pressure at the muzzle than a rifle or a pistol, but it's .729 caliber. Neither is as loud in dBA as a major caliber centerfire rifle or a .357 revolver, though.

 

[JTH]

For function and really multi purpose, a 12 ga pump shotgun, Remy 870 or Mossberg, really any 12 ga pump will do. Second a hand gun. Both beside your bed. Children around changes the ability to leave them loaded where they're accessible, just too risky.
JT

 

[bigfatdave]

You need to take at least 2 steps to get to your gun after you wake up to make sure you're awake enough to not make mistakes.

taking two steps won't bring guaranteed proper target ID ... how's about we focus on the concept of target ID and not on exact storage solutions?

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

FWIW: an AR-15 style rifle built without a gas port and gas tube is just a bolt action rifle.

 

[JFrame]

taking two steps won't bring guaranteed proper target ID ... how's about we focus on the concept of target ID and not on exact storage solutions?

I think that makes more sense.


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[rolandedwinjohnson]

Just start with a plain Jane M94 Winnie or Marlin 336 and go from there. Oh, you can get carried away a really Mall Ninjafy the Marlin. Furncliff has a nice picture of one all done up. It may actually be really good to use, just my eyes have a hard time with it. 'Gettin Old and set in my ways.

 

[Jason_W]

Here are some photos from a ballistic wax test I ran on a remington factory 125 grain JSP factory load a few years ago. Penetration was just under 6" at 50 yards. The wax is very temperature sensitive and it was a cold summer effecting penetration. MV was about 21 fps out of an 18.5" barrel.

No, it's not a 30-06, but still nothing to scoff at.

 

[benEzra]

taking two steps won't bring guaranteed proper target ID ... how's about we focus on the concept of target ID and not on exact storage solutions?

A light on the gun is a very good solution to the target ID issue, IMO, particularly with a long gun.

 

[Rexster]

If the "evil" appearance of an autoloader is a concern, and home defense and coyotes are the intended uses, the Mini-14 is an autoloading option that should be considered. The Mini is my choice for general utility, which includes home defense and may someday include predator control, if I ever do get out of the city. (To be clear, I do own and know how to run an AR15, but I prefer the Mini for general utility.)

If one is comfortable with the manual of arms of a Remington 870, then the Remington 7615 would seem a logical choice. It is available in black, marketed toward the police market, as well as other finishes, marketed to the sporting market. Its magazines being the same as AR15 magazines is a big advantage. I nearly bought one of these for my wife, until a rude salesperson changed my mind, and after I reflected further, decided my wife liked her existing home defense rifle well enough, and I ended up buying her a pistol.

I like lever rifles and bolt rifles. The low magazine capacity and one-sided operation of bolt rifles would put them low on my list as a home defense weapon. (One-sided meaning that the bolt cannot be worked nearly as fast from one's "off" shoulder.) As for lever rifles, since I settled on the Mini-14, and bought a spare, I have sold two Marlin .357 lever rifles, and will probably sell one or two other lever rifles, though I will keep at least a couple.

 

[JFrame]

Trust me there are people who half wake up and think they see things they don't and they sometimes shoot members of their family who might have got up to go to the john. And just because you have never woke up thinking weird things it doesn't mean you won't. People change as they get older, believe me.

Not to argue that people's cognitive and awareness abilities don't diminish with age. But when they get to the point that they are able to carelessly discharge a weapon in the manner you describe, I think it's questionable whether they should be in possession of such weapons at all.


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[mshootnit]

non semi auto.... that leaves only full auto or shotgun for me

 

[bigfatdave]

and lots of people are shot every year by people who leave guns by their bed no matter the age of the person shooting.

[citation needed]

 

[JFrame]

Well I've seen teenagers wake up in the middle of sleep walking, I've seen people be dragged from their beds by someone who "thought" (in their dream) that the house was on fire, and lots of people are shot every year by people who leave guns by their bed no matter the age of the person shooting. And how exactly do you know in advance when you are going to be the one that's too old? Is there a bell that goes off the day before you become irrational in your sleep? Thank goodness I haven't heard that bell yet. Have you? You sound like someone who is a long way from being old because you don't understand much about it. It doesn't just hit you one day. It sneaks up on you. And some people develop senile dementia when they're in their 30's or even younger. And sometimes it does come on very quickly. You day you could be just fine and within a week you might not recognize what a toilet is much less a firearm. So what exactly is the cut off age JFrame?

C'mon, Jeff -- let's not be so confrontational.

I'm just saying that it would disturb me if anyone capable of discharging a firearm in any of the ways you describe was actually in possession of a firearm. Of course, there's absolutely no way to tell if and when such a condition would befall -- especially to the individual to whom it has befallen!

My father has severe dementia. My mother (now deceased) had dementia. My mother-in-law (also deceased), who lived with us for a good year before we could no longer physically manage her, had dementia. Trust me -- I'm very aware of the progression and fall-out of dementia!

In the instance you describe of a person dragging people from their beds because he thought the house was on fire -- clearly, if that person wanted to shoot a gun instead, being twenty steps away from a gun would not have provided a safeguard.


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[Justin]

I would agree that it's worth taking into account the hazy state of awareness we all have upon being startled out of a deep sleep.

Jeff, I'd like to see some documentation or information about the "two steps to the gun" rule you're putting forth. I don't think it's a concept worth dismissing out of hand, but I'd like to read up on it a bit myself if that's possible.

Thanks.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Anyone who thinks can be awoken up from a dead sleep and have razor sharp wits and decision making skills instantly are fooling themselves.

Any state DOT or federal transportation dpt views sleepy driving as only slightly less dangerous than intoxicated driving. It's not much a stretch to apply this logic to home defense when coming up from a deep sleep however temporary the state may be.

A tend to agree with not keeping in such a manner that an asleep or half asleep hand can get to it without higher brain functions having to take over.


Tapatalk post via IPhone.

 

[JFrame]

I wasn't being confrontational. I was just describing the facts as I know them. People do get shot by family members who no one would expect to make such a mistake. The plain fact is it does happen. I'm certainly not anyone to say that a person shouldn't keep any gun anywhere unlocked but I've known people very well that did very strange things when they were waking up from a dream. BTW the person wasn't dragged completely out of that bed. Just half way across the bed.

Obviously these things can happen much farther away than 2 steps but that's an accepted distance where it seems people usually come to their senses to a higher degree than just pulling a gun off the night stand beside you. I wake up with very stiff knees so I keep my handgun stored in a place where I have to think about getting it before I can get it. I have it buried under a couple of things so it isn't instantly in my hands. I keep my long guns maybe 5 feet from me when I sleep. But my kids are grown and living elsewhere now so my concerns aren't as high as they were when my kids were in high school. My wife won't be coming though the outside door in the middle of the night except in rare instances when she might be visiting her family or something. I can't think of the last time she was out past the time I went to sleep.

Again this isn't my theory. I've read it many times over the years.

Hey, Jeff -- It's not like I don't see your viewpoint, and I think the minutiae of the details aren't really worth arguing.

In the case of my household, I keep my .357 in a nightstand drawer, holstered. I figure the act of opening the drawer and unholstering the revolver are sufficient conscious physical acts to constitute an adequate transition between the semi-conscious and conscious state. My wife keeps her .38 in a zippered rug under the bed -- likewise for her.

Of course, we also don't have any other occupants in our house -- other than our cat, who is safely under our line of fire...


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[bigfatdave]

I would agree that it's worth taking into account the hazy state of awareness we all have upon being startled out of a deep sleep.

Sure, but there's no magic formula to awaken yourself.
Adrenaline is an excellent stimulant, and the act of drawing a gun from a holster, scabbard, or storage should be enough reminder to actually ID a target.

Just because some idiot used "hurrrr I wuz sleepy!" as an excuse for lousy target ID doesn't mean I'm going to do anything to prevent their claimed error.

Again this isn't my theory. I've read it many times over the years.

Where? VPC's newsletter? Mayor Daley's reasons to disarm the commoners?
I read accounts of how guns "just went off", too ... it doesn't make them true or accurate.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Sure, but there's no magic formula to awaken yourself.
Adrenaline is an excellent stimulant, and the act of drawing a gun from a holster, scabbard, or storage should be enough reminder to actually ID a target.

Just because some idiot used "hurrrr I wuz sleepy!" as an excuse for lousy target ID doesn't mean I'm going to do anything to prevent their claimed error.

Where? VPC's newsletter? Mayor Daley's reasons to disarm the citezenry?
I read accounts of how guns "just went off", too ... it doesn't make them true or accurate.

While you might be ok with relying on adrenalin and pure animal instinct for target ID I prefer for higher brain functions to come into play to provide my decision life/death making.

You may not want to believe it and you can deny it all you want but for the first few seconds waking up from deep REM sleep you, ME and everyone else IS a blithering idiot who doesn't have a clue as to WTH is going on.

You can drill "target ID" into your head till that's all you know. But when you wake up for a few brief moments you will be too stupid to even know your ABC's. Not taking into account that you will be impaired and denying such is the height of foolishness, almost as bad as those guys who claim to drive better buzzed.


Tapatalk post via IPhone.

 

[bigfatdave]

You can claim that all you like, but it doesn't make 2 steps have any meaning. If you're so full of derp upon awakening, harden your bedroom door more and/or put out a nightlight.



An unholstered gun on the nightstand or under the pillow? Unsafe
Holstered or otherwise contained and in reach? Useful
Out of reach or locked up? Useless

 

[wgaynor]

Can't go wrong with the tried and true .30-.30 There's a reason that it's still popular after so many years... because it works.

 

[Kendal Black]

^^^ Yeppers. I think a lever .30-30 will do everything TheProf mentioned in the OP.