Nosey, Over Zealous, and Blind "Good Samaritan"

[Run&Shoot]

What is frustrating is that the police seem to have time to investigate "suspicious" activity like this, yet I and friends have called in actual crimes like severe drunk driving and hit and run and they are 'too busy solving murders". Or in our neck of town they like to set up day long cross walk sting operations complete with a undercover "victim" at a location that rarely has walkers. I kid you not.

Note that Still2TooMany had not actually done anything wrong. Everything was totally legal. Heck, I've changed clothes and brushed my teeth in a McDonalds parking lot at 1am during a cross country road trip. Now if he had pulled a ski mask over his face before going into WalMart then yes, that is highly suspicious. But rummaging through his car and changing his shirt?? So what if he pulled things out of his pants? I bet that describes a fourth of the folks shopping at WalMart in the after work hours. And since he has a CHL, what difference does it make to the LEO where he carries it? That is getting close to harrassment I would think. Totally irrevelant to any possible criminal activity considering the CHL.

I just hope they could respond as quickly to a real robbery or shooting.

 

[evan price]

Harrisburg PA:

Police got a call that a man wearing a white shirt and carrying a rifle had entered an office building on Erford Road in East Pennsboro Township.

When police got on scene they searched the building and found an employee there had brought a BB gun to loan to a co-worker.

"He alarmed people for no legitimate reason. He caused 10 police cars to come at a high rate of speed. We shut down the offices in the building for safety purposes," said Chief Dennis McMaster, East Pennsboro Township Police.

As a precaution 2 nearby schools and Holy Spirit Hospital were also put in lockdown.

Police have charged the man with disorderly conduct.

How's that for stupidity resulting from a so-called "Good Samaritan"?

 

[Greysand]

"It would probably be safe to say that more than half of the evil in the world is due to well-meaning busybodies who just cannot refrain from interfering."
-- Emmet Fox

 

[El Tejon]

I am completely confused.

Still, so, what alleged criminal activity was afoot?

Is Walking with a White Girl an offense where you are?

 

[Bob F.]

Still 2: Good job. When asked about carrying in WalMart I probably would have just said WM's not any safer than anyplace else or something similar. Bad things can happen anyplace.

Incidentally, I've been a GS that made a bad call. Stuff happens.

Bob

 

[Still 2 Many Choices!?]

El Tejon,

Well the initial impression I got from the direction of the conversation with the female officer, I believe the "GS" alleged that I may have been stealing from Walmart. But upon further scrutiny of the details, that doesn't make sense; as we had not been into Walmart yet to have taken anything. Because like I said, the "GS" was exiting Walmart as I was just pulling up, and my co-worker was already parked.

I am more inclined to believe that the "GS" thought he was seeing a drug transaction of some sort, but reported it in the above posted assanine way, which led the officers to think there was a theft going on. I never got confirmation on the bag types(little drug baggies, or shopping type bags), that I was alleged to have been producing from my clothing, but I doubt someone would be pulling a bunch of shopping bags from their clothing.

RE: Walking with a white girl being a crime. That would depend on who sees you, and what their opinion of inter-racial relationships might be... After all, this is the ,"deep south", here in Southeast Texas, and as prevelant as inter-racial dating is around here, some people would still consider it a no-no. Even though this was just a co-worker as I said, someone could have perceived us as a couple, which is part of the reason I went on and changed my shirt to begin with.

To get to the crux of it all, the only "alleged criminal activity", that I can even imagine setting off this guys ,"spidey sense", would be; "black male, white female, there is something wrong with this picture". I do wonder if I had been a white male, or even her a black female, would this have aroused his suspicion to the point that he took down our information and then called the cops for me changing my shirt?!

To my knowledge, we were not in a high drug area(actually quite the opposite), but I have seen examples in other placesm and been unlucky participant to a few cases of being ," the wrong race, in the wrong place"...

Lastly my appearance(however dashing ), may have played some small role in the incident developing. I am only 5'6", but I have an athletic build, with hair that was braided(normally worn in an afro), and I don't know, maybe the guy thought I was a thug/ex-con or something. I am trying to give him every benefit of the doubt. I refuse to cut my hair though, as it is the last vestige of my rebeluous youthful nature, and non-conformist ideals.

Still 2 Many Choices!?

 

[fishingjld]

nice

ifishsum that is a great article.

 

[Still 2 Many Choices!?]

Bob F.,

Thnx. And of course I should have kept my cool enough to be more objective in my answering the question, but the fact that she had the audacity to ask it in such a accusitory manner AFTER I HAVE SHOWN HER MY LICENSE TO LEGALLY CARRY ANYWHERE NOT DISALLOWED BY LAW, that took the objectivity right out of me...

The normal Still 2 Many Choices response would be one, I have recently been borrowing from another THR member here(someone please give credit if you know the member).

Modified for the S2MC!? effect...
Cop: "Why are you carrying a gun in Walmart?!"
S2MC!?: "Because I can't carry a cop in my pocket, and when it comes down to it, I am the only one responsible for me getting home safe tonight..."

Still 2 Many Choices!?

 

[Limeyfellow]

Well the initial impression I got from the direction of the conversation with the female officer, I believe the "GS" alleged that I may have been stealing from Walmart. But upon further scrutiny of the details, that doesn't make sense; as we had not been into Walmart yet to have taken anything. Because like I said, the "GS" was exiting Walmart as I was just pulling up, and my co-worker was already parked.

I would guess it be the GS thought you were dealing drugs by the way they are talking about pulling bags out of your pockets in a car. Throw in a little racial profiling and the GS calls the police.

 

[Big Az Al]

Not knowing competence of CCW holder?????

A police officer asking the CCW carrier not to load the firearm in their presence, OK, like I just had someone swetting bullets because some GS, made a stupid call. So Just chill a little and let me leave so that my training does'nt cause me to overreact or swet a little myself.

I can go for that.

In my state there is a level of competency in handling firearms that has to shown in order to pass the course, and recieve the permit. so that exscuse is ...well to me...........................

There is an agency near me that flat out forbids the LEO's of that agency from handling a firearm of a CCW holder, this is because of the accidental discharges that where occuring during traffic stop's. IE the grose incompetencies of the agencies officers. Luckily most where contained in the patrol cars, and the cars or gadgets within those cars kept the occupents from being hurt.

 

[gear_merc]

Nice way to handle the situation!

(as posted) GS - tuff call. I can understand why they MIGHT call the police, but I wouldn't... I guess better to be safe then sorry.

Female cop (ref. gun carry question) - Stupid! (as posted) She needed to put it in context. i.e. gun laws, store policy, etc.

Ref. load/unloaded gun during police contact (not inferring your specific incident):

It depends on the contact.
During a civil traffic, (decent nieghborhood, normal car, causal dressed driver), officer would probably ask driver not to touch the gun.

During criminal investigation, (stolen vehicle, shots fired, assault, DV) anyone detained as a investigative lead, would be "patted down" and/or asked for weapons. If discovered or told about gun, most officers would disarm/unload. Gun would be returned unloaded and instructed not to load till they left (safety reasons: person upset with detention, loads gun... , accidental discharge [maybe into cop] - thus more paperwork. ).

It probably goes to personal choice. Some cops are paranoid and have everyone disarm/unload (including their own mother ). Others go by experience (rookies would disarm/unload everyone, veterans would do some, street cops would take it case by case, detectives [dics]and bosses would never do it )

Run -
Guess w/ cops, YMMV. In some areas, calls "stack" up, and becomes first come (call), first served (Unless it's "in progress", then that brings it to the front of the line. Sometimes, BAD areas "stack" up "in progress" calls... . I've seen it when they are "getting their a$$ handed to them" ref. call volume, not enuff cops... ).

Stay safe!

 

[ZeSpectre]

Still2manychoices
I think you've handled it fine. Sorry you seem to be a lightning rod for this sort of event.

The only part that might have rattled me was

The female officer actually asks me "Why do you have a gun in Walmart"

to which my reply would most likely have been either.. "I'm sorry, I don't understand your question" or "in case of emergency".

 

[Deanimator]

Is Walking with a White Girl an offense where you are?

Funny you should ask that.

Last year(?), a Black guy walked into a west side Cleveland bar with a couple of White women. Immediately, a couple of drunk White guys started making hostile and threatening remarks to the three. The Black guy tried to ignore them, but finally one of the White guys attacked him. The Black guy, who's a martial artist cold cocked the guy with one punch. A fight thereafter ensued with the other White guy. The bar owner locked the front door and tried to keep the Black guy and the two White women from escaping. During all of this, somebody called the cops. When they arrived the fight was broken up and it was discovered that the two aggressors were Cleveland cops.

They and the bar owner were indicted on a variety of charges. The guy who was cold cocked was convicted of assault(?), fined and directed to "anger management". The other cop and bar owner were acquitted in a rather strangely worded decision by the judge who held the bench trial. The JUDGE advised the Black guy to sue the cop and bar owner, which I believe he is doing.

Not long after the acquittals, the Mayor of Cleveland fired the two cops. The police union is of course supporting them (no surprise if you're aware of the record of the Chicago police union in similar cases). But then if Jeffrey Dahmer had been a Milwaukee cop, the union would have tried to keep him on the job, claiming that he merely had an eating disorder...

 

[romma]

Once I was on the highway and there was an idiot weaving all over. I called 911 on my cell.

Last month, I was driving back from vacation with the family, and there was a waste hauler with a load of insulation in an open top trailer with it blowing out all over the highway. I again called 911 on my cell. Of course this was in NJ so I may get "rubbed out" any day now..

 

[doncol]

Well, at least you can find happiness in that if the GS parked on the other side of the parking lot to watch you get arrested, he got to see the cop hand you a weapon and then drive away.

 

[Caimlas]

The female officer actually asks me "Why do you have a gun in Walmart"

Personally, I wouldn't even dignify a question like that. It's like asking, "Sir, why are you wearing a shirt?" My response would be something like, "I'm sorry officer, but I don't understand the question." Then they're stuck explaining themselves for their bigotry. Maybe qualify your follow-up question with something like, "You mean as opposed to carrying my lawfully owned and carried firearm at a Denny's, McDonalds, or Target?"

It seems evident to me that you were profiled, at the very least by the "GS" in the car, and maybe the cop(s).

What is the justification for taking your weapon? I understand their reasoning in taking it; I'm just wondering about the legal justification. Is there any? I don't think so - you hadn't committed a crime, and they had absolutely no evidence other than one person's word that you were doing something suspicious. But, it's hardly surprising considering how things work in the education of police these days.

I was participant to a mock drive by shooting a couple of years ago (not sure if it was a real gun or an airsoft, but it was a glock and the college aged kids were pointing it at poeople, myself included - they were lucky I got out of the way instead of drew down immediately), at which time I had my CCW on me. My gun didn't leave the holster. I called in to report the problem, and hte cops came; at that point, they took my gun from me (and had I been carrying a glock, the LEO would've shot a hole in the floor of his squad car unloading it). At the time, it irritated me. Now, I'm wondering what justification there was, as it didn't come into play...

 

[Bobo]

My take for what it's worth…

The GS did OK, but wasn't very accurate in his description as to what he saw.
The lady cop did OK, but obviously doesn't think too well on her feet. She made assumptions based on her immediate feelings not on cold, hard, reasoned facts.
You and your co-worker did very well.

All in all it turned out very well…

The GS probably went away knowing he messed up a bit, but did his part to warn the authorities of possible trouble.
The lady cop went away knowing she could have done better also, but she did her job and did it pretty well.
You went away knowing your answer wasn't perfect, but you did well and you and your co-worker came out safe and unharmed.

There was a concerned citizen, a good cop or two, a co-worker who remained cool, and a CCWer who knows how to carry responsibly! What more could you ask for?

 

[Deanimator]

All in all it turned out very well…

I tend to view the so-called GS as a goof. He MIGHT have had his heart in the right place, but he was clearly inaccurate, and added his own [unsubstantiated] coloration to the story.

A few years ago, I was loading the car to go to the range and saw a guy climb through one of the apartment windows here. I got on my cellphone and called the cops. I told them that I just saw a guy climb in through a window and that I DIDN'T know whether he had just forgotten his key or whether he was a burglar. I told them very precisely where he'd gone in, and that I had some place to be, and therefore couldn't stick around. No embellishment, no hysteria, just suspicious activity which might have an innocent explanation. Obviously that just isn't in some people's bag of tricks...

 

[The Deer Hunter]

and the serial # to my gun

I have a real problem with that. Legally, is there anything you could do if they recorded your serial number without your consent?

 

[avpro]

There is an agency near me that flat out forbids the LEO's of that agency from handling a firearm of a CCW holder, this is because of the accidental discharges that where occuring during traffic stop's. IE the grose incompetencies of the agencies officers. Luckily most where contained in the patrol cars, and the cars or gadgets within those cars kept the occupents from being hurt.

This is what I was thinking too. We have LEOs that are trying to unload firearms in a crowded Wal-Mart parking lot. Firearms that they may not have any experience with and have no idea how to operate! She was lucky that she didn't hurt / kill anyone.

I just went shooting with my brother in law who is a LEO. He wanted to try my hi-power SFS. When I explained it's operation to him and told him that to engage the safety you have to push the hammer forward, he looked at me like I was an idiot. It was fun watching him wrestle with the gun trying to figure out why the safety lever would not engage the safety. I'm just including this to illustrate that just because you have a badge, does not make you a firearms expert. If you are not familiar with a firearm, you should not be experimenting with it in a Wal-Mart parking lot.

 

[tkarter]

When under scrutiny by any LEO that knows you have a CCW you comply. NO matter what they are saying. You aren't going to shoot them are you?

IMHO it wasn't a Good Samaritan it was a Concerned Citizen that seen what looked like something that shouldn't be going on. They reported it.

No biggie since it was checked out and no harm no foul took place.

You weren't acosted nor treated as a criminal in any way.

You carry and anyone with a gun should be a concern of any officer.

That is a part of what you should expect IMHO.

Still you are safe.

You carry at wal mart for the same reason you carry anywhere. IMHO once again.

tk

 

[Caimlas]

The GS did OK, but wasn't very accurate in his description as to what he saw.

To me, I read this as GS possibly thinking, "there's a black guy coming up on a parked car and now he's digging around in his shirt and/or pockets. Ahah! *assumption*

The lady cop did OK, but obviously doesn't think too well on her feet. She made assumptions based on her immediate feelings not on cold, hard, reasoned facts.

In other words, she likely thought, based on the GS's description, that the guy was dealing drugs. Being as a drug dealer is doing something illegal, his guns were also a matter of concern. Instead of reading the situation (guy with a female friend out just doing some shopping!) and behavior, she worked off pre-conceived *assumptions*.

Stupid *$#@ racists. Now, granted, there could've been something else about the way the original poster was presenting himself that may have made these suggestions (I dunno - baggy clothing? his music and/or car?), or possibly social expectations of similarly clad people in the area - who knows. But that's the way I'm reading it.

Ya gotsta be aware of how people perceive you. It's an integral part of situational awareness.

There was a concerned citizen, a good cop or two, a co-worker who remained cool, and a CCWer who knows how to carry responsibly! What more could you ask for?

I don't know about that. Looks to me like they treated him coldly, if not rudely, with the assumption that he was going to shoot them until he was able to prove his intent was otherwise. They took his gun (asking him if it was stolen!) and grilled him on the suspicion of a single person, not anything they themselves had observed. That doesn't seem like the behavior of a good cop to me; that sounds like the behavior of a cop who's suspicious and distrusting of anyone not wearing a badge - us "civilians".

No, he wasn't beaten or "treated like a criminal". But he wasn't treated like a law-abiding citizen. He was treated like a subject. Despite what some people might say about the cops having to do their jobs, yadda yadda, there is a HUGE difference between the behavior of the cops in this scenario and the way police would rightfully treat someone who isn't suspected as being involved in a known crime, and who is demonstrating lawful compliance with one of the largest civil responsibilities an American has (those would be 2nd Amendment responsibilities).

 

[Caimlas]

This is what I was thinking too. We have LEOs that are trying to unload firearms in a crowded Wal-Mart parking lot. Firearms that they may not have any experience with and have no idea how to operate! She was lucky that she didn't hurt / kill anyone.

I've had cops 'confiscate' my firearm (Taurus PT111 Pro) temporarily (during a traffic stop once, and once during a drive-by in which I drew but didn't fire) before handing it back. In one instance, the cop almost blew a hole in the driver's side floor of his squad car (maybe they should put some Level III kevlar around the driver's compartment of squad cars? ). The other cop, while he didn't outright pull the trigger, did take it out of the holster and carried it around with his hand on the pistol grip, finger inside the trigger guard (thank god for manual safeties and heavy triggers in both scenarios).

From now on, I'm going to be firmly expressing my concern to an officer who requests my firearm from me. "Officer, I'm somewhat reserved about having you handle my pistol. The last two officers who did so came very close to causing negligent discharges through poor handling practice. You'll excuse me, sir, if I request that you don't unload the pistol, or at least follow my verbal directions in doing so." <glib>Who knows, maybe it'll get me thrown in jail anyway. </glib>

Besides, I don't see the point of unloading the firearm in the first place. Hello! It's not like guns accidentally discharge with handling (unless you're pulling the trigger or $&%@ing with an exposed hammer, that is). I blame the movies and anti-gun propagandists for this policy.

 

[psyopspec]

When under scrutiny by any LEO that knows you have a CCW you comply. NO matter what they are saying.

No matter what they are saying? I don't think so. I still won't be consenting to any searches without a warrant, nor discussing the details of my personal life (Where are you coming from? What were you doing there at this hour? Why do you feel you need a CCW? Are you looking for trouble?). I'll comply with the standard procedures for being stopped, and disarm according to instructions if they wish - and anyone who would suggest resisting such a request is a little off their rocker. Any complaints in this thread by me or others are along the lines of "I'll do it, but I don't have to like it."

You aren't going to shoot them are you?

Of course not, and nobody who has commented on this thread has suggested as much.

No biggie since it was checked out and no harm no foul took place.

You're right, it's not a big deal. That doesn't mean we can't hash the details out for our own interest. After all, it's only the internet.

You weren't acosted nor treated as a criminal in any way.

Not in the legal sense, but getting disarmed/detained still feels like a dirty form of being violated. Happend to me once, and I couldn't help but think "I've got things to do. After their brief investigation, they have no reason to believe I've committed a crime (I hadn't, other than a seat belt violation) and no warrant to arrest me (they didn't). Why the hell am I sitting in the back of a squad car, unable to leave of my own free will?" Eventually I was let out of the car, after which all I had to do was justify my possession of a gun & permit to a cop who didn't 'see the need' for a citizen to have such a thing. The experience still has me a bit perterbed/suspicious of officer friendly, so please forgive me if I've still got a chip on my shoulder.

Note: The above only applies to my local department with which I had the experience, where such attitudes tend to be the norm. Sheriff's Deputies and staties have always been perfectly professional in every contact I've had.

 

[tkarter]

Good points you make.

tk