One of the most ignored factors of the 40SW in caliber debates

[TacticalSpeed]

Modern 40's seem to feed every reputable brand well. It's the least tested caliber if I'm forced to switch jhp brands.

My 40, 45, reload magazines have fmj in them. I shoot my carry ammo when it gets old.

9mm is more expensive to carry, since its reload mags are all jhp.

My 40's have consistently performed well.

40 ammo seems to have less flaws in cheapo bulk ammo as well. 9, 380, seem to have the most feed issues with low quality ammo.

Not sure how 9mm is more expensive when 40 S&W rounds, range ammo & HP ammo, cost more, but cool.

I used to own mostly .40 (as far as handguns go), but moved to 9mm for most. No regrets.

 

[Dogbite]

I often noticed the flat meplat of the .40 fmj and have discussed it with my dad. If forced to use FMJ it would definitely be better than round nose.

 

[Jim Watson]

The Hatcher scale of Relative Stopping Power rates a small flat point 5% better than a lead roundnose, a large flat point 10% better, a jacketed roundnose 10% less. Good enough for simple bullets in 1935.
Beware of later attempts to "modernize" the system with numbers faked up for hollow points.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I've learned one very valuable thing from reading through this thread.

I've officially gotten old.

 

[golden]

URBAN,

While you may be familiar with hunting bullets, you are not when it comes to law enforcement. A number of agencies back in the (ANYTHING BUT HOLLOW POINTS PERIOD) TRIED FLAT POINTED .38 Special semi-wadcutters. This included the highly political NYPD. After finding the semi wadcutters no more effective than the lead round nose, they gave up and adopted a hollow point round.

While you say this is proven in hunting fields, I think you are comparing apples to oranges. The wide meplat, semi-wadcutter rounds popular for handgun hunting are SHARP SHOULDERED and will have a tearing effect anyway.
As I asked before, name me a major law enforcement agency that has selected flat tip bullets.

Also, feeding flat tipped bullets can cause jams. WINCHESTER put a flat tip on their .32ACP ammo and it has caused misfeeds in many different pistols.

Jim

 

[Jim Watson]

This included the highly political NYPD. After finding the semi wadcutters no more effective than the lead round nose, they gave up and adopted a hollow point round.

And they had to learn it all over again when they went to automatics. Starting out with hardball - and only 10 in the gun - it took them a while to adopt 9mm hollow points.

 

[JTQ]

Also, feeding flat tipped bullets can cause jams. WINCHESTER put a flat tip on their .32ACP ammo and it has caused misfeeds in many different pistols.

Jim

Sure can for all kinds of guns and calibers, but this is a .40S&W thread, and all .40 S&W ball ammo has a flat tip.

 

[UrbanHermit]

The Hatcher scale of Relative Stopping Power rates a small flat point 5% better than a lead roundnose, a large flat point 10% better, a jacketed roundnose 10% less. Good enough for simple bullets in 1935.
Beware of later attempts to "modernize" the system with numbers faked up for hollow points.

"Stopping power" appears to be a myth. Humans "stop" when they are shot because they realize that they've screwed up big time. Deer run over 100 yards after taking a 30-06 through both lungs. Any scale of handgun effectiveness that attempts to grade handgun rounds based on "stopping power" should be discounted entirely as pseudoscience.

An effective handgun to me is, among other things, one that is accurate enough in my hands to enable a high probability of hitting an opponent's central nervous system, while simultaneously causing enough tissue destruction to result in exsanguination and collapsed lungs and other trauma that will incapacitate an opponent over time with a center of mass hit while I am trying to escape or utilize cover, and demonstrates enough penetration to perform these tasks from any angle and through common intermediate barriers. "Stopping power" isn't part of the equation and has never been scientifically quantified.

 

[Zerodefect]

A heart hit can drop someone like a sack of potato's, or they can remain conscience for 10 seconds.

Last time I saw it, it was less than 1 second. (assuming that the patient can tell when their heart stops, because they were talking normal, then dropping). Defib zapped them right up.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/sudden-cardiac-arrest/symptoms-causes/syc-20350634

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Caliber debates tend to be one of the most popular recurring discussion topics in handgun shooting forums. Typically, it is conventional defensive pistol rounds that are being compared, the 9mm, 45acp, 40SW, etc.

I don't know which round is "better", but I do know that the 40SW has a very specific, unique, and highly significant advantage over the competition, and I've scarcely ever seen it mentioned in the hundreds of caliber debate threads and videos I've seen over the years.

What that is is the fact that ALL 40SW FMJ ammo utilizes a flat nose design with a broad metplat. That, combined with it's relatively large diameter, means that ALL 40SW ammunition is viable defensive ammunition, not just hollow points that cost $1.25/round. With most other cartridges, including the 9mm and 45ACP, the effectiveness of their FMJ offerings, which constitute probably 80% of the ammunition floating around for these cartridges, is significantly limited by utilizing round nose bullet design, which is meaningfully inferior at creating permanent wound cavities.

So if you have a 40 and can't find your favorite HP load or can't afford it because of corona or other factors, you'll be just fine using any cheap 50 round box of range ammo you find. You could probably even kill a deer with it and get a useful blood trail. Based on what I've seen in tests, I would take 40SW FMJ over 45ACP hardball, the effectiveness of the metplat seems to overshadow the extra .05" of bullet diameter. 40SW FMJ is probably superior to any semiauto service cartridge in history prior to the development of modern hollow point technology.

I think this is easily the single most important advantage the 40SW has, yet I don't think I've ever once seen it mentioned on the internet. How odd. Maybe it's because the kinds of people who understand the effectiveness of flat nose bullets are handgun hunters who don't hang out in defensive shooting forums.

If I recall correctly, the only difference between Colt's "New Police" designs and the S&W designs - .32 and .38 - was Colt used a flat nose bullet while Smith & Wesson used a round nose bullet. The flat nose made it "Police Use."

Caliber debates are pretty much like pretty baby/pet debates: mine ALWAYS wins!

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

A heart hit can drop someone like a sack of potato's, or they can remain conscience for 10 seconds.

Last time I saw it, it was less than 1 second. (assuming that the patient can tell when their heart stops, because they were talking normal, then dropping). Defib zapped them right up.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/sudden-cardiac-arrest/symptoms-causes/syc-20350634

I was actually flat-lined a couple of times for a few seconds each and still talking to the cardiac resident. Pure adrenaline. The urgent care I went to gave me two nitro caps and that amped me up enough to survive the ambulance ride to the hospital. Lucky for me the senior surgeon happened to be doing duty at the time and decided to save my life. Otherwise I was a goner. Both main left-side arteries were 100% clogged: the LAD and circumflex, a.k.a. "Widow makers." I'd be hard pressed to stand in a fight with that kind of pain inside my chest, though. And I know what it feels like, now.

 

[UrbanHermit]

If I recall correctly, the only difference between Colt's "New Police" designs and the S&W designs - .32 and .38 - was Colt used a flat nose bullet while Smith & Wesson used a round nose bullet. The flat nose made it "Police Use."

Caliber debates are pretty much like pretty baby/pet debates: mine ALWAYS wins!

My solution is to own handguns in every common caliber.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

My solution is to own handguns in every common caliber.

Yup. I came to the same conclusion.

This is one of five - all about the same size and all about as stuffed full.

Supposedly this one is handguns only - and there's one that's supposed to be long-arms only - but they're nomadic little critters.

 

[Meeks36]

Had a ND a few years back G22 w Wally World white box hollow points. Went through two sheets of drywall, one dress, and stopped. Luckily it hit our closet. Not much Penetration. And I am glad! Kept the thing for years. Not sure where it is now. (The bullet)

 

[Jim Watson]

Well, the lawyer here who was shot in the butt by a cop at a gun store here, proudly displayed the well expanded .40 Gold Dot that the doctor dug out of him. Fortunately it did not hit anything important to do permanent damage, but he was definitely "stopped."

 

[UrbanHermit]

Well, the lawyer here who was shot in the butt by a cop at a gun store here, proudly displayed the well expanded .40 Gold Dot that the doctor dug out of him. Fortunately it did not hit anything important to do permanent damage, but he was definitely "stopped."

I just thought of that video of from a couple years ago of the FBI agent dancing at a wedding or something, dropping his carry pistol, and discharging it into the crowd of partygoers while trying to pick it up.

With some of these incidents, I think if it happened to me I would just immediately commit seppuku.

 

[PzGren]

My oldest son is an ER doctor and often enough people that got solid chest hits with 9mm and .40 FMJ are fully responsive and survive, different from leg shots where the victim often bleeds to death if a tourniquet wasn't applied on time. Something my youngest son, as a Dallas cop that works nights in Deep Ellum, absolutely agrees with.

Calibre discussions on the internet have been drawing attention for decades but absolute and reliable scientific data is not available and findings and recommendations change as fast as the seasons. Those that start these topics rarely have first hand experience with gun fights and gun shot wounds but chew through often repeated statements like a cow chews the cud.

 

[Kleanbore]

I don't think so. If I manage to find cover or concealment, I want the threats I've shot to die of blood loss rather than just be waiting out there or looking for me forever

Unlikely--a 1 in 6 chance, if they receive treatment.

BTW, that cute little post of yours, which will never disappear, could be used to indicate mens rea with great effect, should you ever be involved in a use of force incident.

[URL="https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/read-before-posting-legal-considerations-of-posting-on-the-internet.604948/"]Read before Posting: Legal Considerations of Posting on the Internet[/URL]

Maybe it would be more accurate to say "twice as likely to bleed to death", though I can't back that up with proof

No

 

[Jim Watson]

Lee Weems said: "I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER.""

 

[UrbanHermit]

Unlikely--a 1 in 6 chance, if they receive treatment.

BTW, that cute little post of yours, which will never disappear, could be used to indicate mens rea with great effect, should you ever be involved in a use of force incident.

Read before Posting: Legal Considerations of Posting on the Internet

No

Okay then I don't want them to die, I want them to survive and kill me.

 

[UrbanHermit]

My oldest son is an ER doctor and often enough people that got solid chest hits with 9mm and .40 FMJ are fully responsive and survive, different from leg shots where the victim often bleeds to death if a tourniquet wasn't applied on time. Something my youngest son, as a Dallas cop that works nights in Deep Ellum, absolutely agrees with.

Calibre discussions on the internet have been drawing attention for decades but absolute and reliable scientific data is not available and findings and recommendations change as fast as the seasons. Those that start these topics rarely have first hand experience with gun fights and gun shot wounds but chew through often repeated statements like a cow chews the cud.

Do you mean just one chest hit? From the front? I wouldn't have trouble believing that people occasionally survive that. Both lungs perforated by two shots, or a shot from the side with a deep penetrating round would probably prove fatal in most cases, that's my guess. Maybe even with pointy 9mm FMJ.

 

[UrbanHermit]

URBAN,

While you may be familiar with hunting bullets, you are not when it comes to law enforcement. A number of agencies back in the (ANYTHING BUT HOLLOW POINTS PERIOD) TRIED FLAT POINTED .38 Special semi-wadcutters. This included the highly political NYPD. After finding the semi wadcutters no more effective than the lead round nose, they gave up and adopted a hollow point round.

While you say this is proven in hunting fields, I think you are comparing apples to oranges. The wide meplat, semi-wadcutter rounds popular for handgun hunting are SHARP SHOULDERED and will have a tearing effect anyway.
As I asked before, name me a major law enforcement agency that has selected flat tip bullets.

Also, feeding flat tipped bullets can cause jams. WINCHESTER put a flat tip on their .32ACP ammo and it has caused misfeeds in many different pistols.

Jim

Maybe you're right, maybe the sharp edge makes all the difference. Some 40 FMJs do that fairly well but some don't. I have more testing to do.

 

[C-grunt]

Do you mean just one chest hit? From the front? I wouldn't have trouble believing that people occasionally survive that. Both lungs perforated by two shots, or a shot from the side with a deep penetrating round would probably prove fatal in most cases, that's my guess. Maybe even with pointy 9mm FMJ.

Ive seen many people survive shots to the chest with handgun rounds. From my experience the old quote that most people survive handgun shots and most people die from rifle shot, is true. The ribcage and the connective tissue in the chest can actually be pretty effective at diverting bullets away from the heart, liver, lungs, and major arteries.

 

[UrbanHermit]

Ive seen many people survive shots to the chest with handgun rounds. From my experience the old quote that most people survive handgun shots and most people die from rifle shot, is true. The ribcage and the connective tissue in the chest can actually be pretty effective at diverting bullets away from the heart, liver, lungs, and major arteries.

I believe it.

 

[Riomouse911]

Sure can for all kinds of guns and calibers, but this is a .40S&W thread, and all .40 S&W ball ammo has a flat tip.

You are right in saying the vast majority of .40 S&W non HP bullets have a flat point of various size…some are small little flat spots on the nose and others nearly full-caliber Wadcutter-esque in shape.

Reloaders can buy plated RN .401 bullets that are similar in shape to .45 or other traditional round nose bullets. One may run into them here or there when buying range reloads, etc.

https://www.armaforce.com/product-category/af-40-sw/


https://www.berrysmfg.com/category/preferred-plated-bullets/plated-pistol/40-sw10mm

Stay safe.