One of the most ignored factors of the 40SW in caliber debates

[Kleanbore]

The experts agree with me. They say the 9mm is adequate when used with modern bullet designs

That has been widely reported for a very long time now.

and is simultaneously easy enough to control for women and old people to use.

I do not recall ever having seen a legitimate user evaluation that limits the ease of control to women and old people. The laws of physics apply to everyone.

 

[WrongHanded]

This guy reacted to a 9mm shot

I would really like to know what exactly that bullet hit to cause the instant failure of this guy to finish taking his next step, and instead pitch forwards to fall on the ground.

 

[UrbanHermit]

That has been widely reported for a very long time now.

I do not recall ever having seen a legitimate user evaluation that limits the ease of control to women and old people. The laws of physics apply to everyone.

Did you actually read my original post? The whole point I'm making is that 40 is (in my opinion, no hard proof) reasonably effective with ANY ammo, whereas the 9mm wasn't really taken seriously until they figured out how to make hollow points right in the 90s. I'm not saying the 9mm is ineffective, I'm saying that it's generally only effective with an extremely small percentage of the ammunition in circulation for it, which is also the most expensive ammunition and the hardest to find right now. This constitutes a significant disadvantage, like an electric car that leaves the driver at the mercy of recharging stations which may not exist where he is traveling.

 

[UrbanHermit]

I would really like to know what exactly that bullet hit to cause the instant failure of this guy to finish taking his next step, and instead pitch forwards to fall on the ground.

I think the bullet caused a lot of physical pain. I think that is what causes 90% of "one-stop-shots", and is the secret to the effectiveness of hollow points on humans. The bullet violently expanding in your internal organs is like stubbing your toe x1000 and all but forces you to just stop everything and wait for the pain to subside. There is no other theory as to why how points work that seems credible to me.

Most people just don't have a lot of fight in them, even when they're superficially behaving aggressively. The notion that people in violent confrontations automatically stop feeling pain because of adrenaline or whatever is absolute rubbish in my opinion.

 

[Palladan44]

I would really like to know what exactly that bullet hit to cause the instant failure of this guy to finish taking his next step, and instead pitch forwards to fall on the ground.

He appeared mostly a depressed and intoxicated suicidal coward, not a raging drugged maniac out with a real intent to kill. It also seems like he didn't harm anyone prior to the officer encounter, that might have changed things.. Or the intent to escape and survive just wasn't there. He seemed very fake. His blood didn't seem to have been boiling like some perps do......I think the officer knew that too, which is why she probably gave him more chances than you'd think.... I know I'm stabbing in the dark, it's all instincts (emotional opinion) but whatever, deadly threat is deadly threat....threat stopped. Im surprised he wasn't crying and screaming after being decked by a GSW.....
What I mean is, Suicide By Coppers tend to fall over....but guys like the ones in Miami-Dade tend to keep going....respective to pistol shots.

 

[Kleanbore]

I'm not saying the 9mm is ineffective, I'm saying that it's generally only effective with an extremely small percentage of the ammunition in circulation for it,

That ammunition has been produced, distributed, and sold in huge quantities.

 

[WrongHanded]

He appeared mostly a depressed and intoxicated suicidal coward, not a raging drugged maniac out with a real intent to kill. It also seems like he didn't harm anyone prior to the officer encounter, that might have changed things.. Or the intent to escape and survive just wasn't there. He seemed very fake. His blood didn't seem to have been boiling like some perps do......I think the officer knew that too, which is why she probably gave him more chances than you'd think.... I know I'm stabbing in the dark, it's all instincts (emotional opinion) but whatever, deadly threat is deadly threat....threat stopped. Im surprised he wasn't crying and screaming after being decked by a GSW.....
What I mean is, Suicide By Coppers tend to fall over....but guys like the ones in Miami-Dade tend to keep going....respective to pistol shots.

Whatever happened, it didn't seem to be a conscious action. It was too immediate for that. I was wondering if the bullet might have hit the spine and given the spinal cord a good twang.

 

[C-grunt]

I would really like to know what exactly that bullet hit to cause the instant failure of this guy to finish taking his next step, and instead pitch forwards to fall on the ground.

It hit him right in the xiphoid process at a slightly downward angle, went through part of his liver, stomach, and a lot of intestines before coming to a rest next to his spine.

 

[The Glockodile]

Reading this just makes me wonder why my my thread of 9 vs 40 but only can find fmj bullets gets removed immediately.

Because it makes us giggle like little girls fantasizing about all the myriad tacticulous warrier manstopping outcomes, all whilst assuaging our alpha maleness

 

[UrbanHermit]

That ammunition has been produced, distributed, and sold in huge quantities.

I know. I have about a thousand rounds of it. It will probably be a form of currency in the near future.

I like to rotate my ammo on a regular basis, and I like to train with what I carry, so thankfully I have other pistols besides 9mm that can make decent holes with the range ammo that is still available on the shelves for the time being.

 

[WrongHanded]

It hit him right in the xiphoid process at a slightly downward angle, went through part of his liver, stomach, and a lot of intestines before coming to a rest next to his spine.

Thank you. I don't suppose you happen to know what the particular load was?

 

[UrbanHermit]

Im starting to remember why I stopped talking about this stuff on this forum. We get people who shoot groceries that try to say that data is better than actual real world results. Clown shoes.

And I'm starting to remember why I generally avoid forums. People have no reading comprehension and miss the points I'm trying to make. Last I checked there are no "experts" recommending 9mm FMJ.

 

[UrbanHermit]

So you agree slight differences in wound channel size is not significant as long as you have sufficient penetration?

The difference between 40 FMJ and 9mm HP is not very large. The difference between 40 FMJ and 9mm FMJ in pork shoulders, for example, is readily apparent. So $2 9mm may be a little better than $0.50 .40 ammunition in situations where deep penetration is not necessary.

 

[UrbanHermit]

Do you know of any competent user evaluations that would indicate that 9mm does not usually work as intended with premium ammunition?

There stories from law enforcement all the time to this day of guys continuing to put up a fight after multiple chest hits from hollow points in every caliber. I thought that was common knowledge.

 

[UrbanHermit]

The LEO gave him every opportunity, nearly too much opportunity. Saw a very similar one, scarily similar....where an LEO pulled over a guy who stabbed his father in law over Covid and mask wearing, then fled.......pulled over by a lone LEO bout 10 minutes later....Perp. charged her (LEO)with the knife....took at least 3 rounds at 4-5 yds away, cleared a stovepipe with a tap, rack, bang when he closed in to less than 1 yd...then 3 more and he fell to his knees, threat over......has anyone seen this one? It's amazing how well she handled the situation.....however a lot of close range center mass hits were not immediately effective, at all. I think that was 40 s&w if I remember right....the more I learn about this SD subject, the more I learn that caliber doesn't matter when comparing the big 3 service calibers...it's just redundant pretty much.

The biggest factor is the predisposition of the attacker.

 

[C-grunt]

Thank you. I don't suppose you happen to know what the particular load was?

Gold Dot 124 grain +P

 

[UrbanHermit]

That has been widely reported for a very long time now.

I do not recall ever having seen a legitimate user evaluation that limits the ease of control to women and old people. The laws of physics apply to everyone.

Which is why I can shoot a 10mm with full power loads better than most female police officers can shoot a 9mm.

 

[C-grunt]

And I'm starting to remember why I generally avoid forums. People have no reading comprehension and miss the points I'm trying to make. Last I checked there are no "experts" recommending 9mm FMJ.

No experts are recommending 40 FMJ either.

 

[C-grunt]

Which is why I can shoot a 10mm with full power loads better than most female police officers can shoot a 9mm.

How are you determining this statement? What state POST handgun qualifications have you shot for score and what was the "female average" for that qualification?

 

[UrbanHermit]

No experts are recommending 40 FMJ either.

Because disaster preparedness and the need to get the most bang for your buck doesn't factor in when you have an infinite amount of taxpayer money to play with. The police don't care how effective their range ammo is. I'm surprised they don't all go to Barnes or Lehigh bullets.

How are you determining this statement? What state POST handgun qualifications have you shot for score and what was the "female average" for that qualification?

I was just being silly.

 

[Kleanbore]

Which is why I can shoot a 10mm with full power loads better than most female police officers can shoot a 9mm.

Define "better".

 

[Zerodefect]

Not sure if serious.

Men with major calibers outshoot women with minor calibers quite regularly in USPSA.

The controlling recoil is only partly reducing flip. If those sights come down nice and straight, that's huge. That's where I suffer when switching pistols for a while.. Not in controlling flip.

If you can repeatedly get your front sight to go straight up, and straight down, you can spot your opponent a ton of flip and power factor, and still have the edge.

 

[JTQ]

The laws of physics apply to everyone.

I usually try to avoid the caliber debates, but this is always an interesting point brought up in these discussions.

It seems as if physics only seems to work one way in the caliber debates. Guns chambered in .40 S&W, .45 Auto, .357 SIG, .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, etc., are all described as harder to shoot than 9mm, well, because of physics. However, 9mm is just as effective as the aforementioned calibers, where apparently physics is now on vacation. Apparently, Newton's 3rd Law of Motion is not applicable in defensive handgun calibers.

Hey, there are valid reasons for choosing a 9mm pistol over a gun chambered in .40 S&W, .45 Auto, .357 SIG, etc., capacity is higher, the round is easier to shoot fast, it is easier on the guns and the shooters, and probably the number one reason it is usually chosen, it is less expensive.

 

[UrbanHermit]

Deleted

 

[Kleanbore]

Newton's third law tells us how the gun moves--not how the wound is made.