One of the most ignored factors of the 40SW in caliber debates

[TarDevil]

You'll pay more for the better bloom? Why's that?

Just to annoy certain people.

 

[Palladan44]

I still tend to prefer the XTPs over anything else, just because they seem to penetrate best, and I never carry any short barreled guns. They've been highly regarded by handgun hunters for years.

Yup. XTPs are an oldie but a goodie.

 

[UrbanHermit]

Both PDX and Gold Dot penetrated three gallon jugs of water, but the Gold Dot poked a hole in the fourth, knocked it over, and sent the first flying over all of them.

I meant more in terms of resisting deflection against hard barriers. The pdx1 has a very tough nose profile with rather sharp edges. This seems to lend it a lot of hoop strength, which explains why it is driven to such high velocities in factory loadings and still fails in some tests. The gold dot isn't bad either.

 

[TarDevil]

I meant more in terms of resisting deflection against hard barriers. The pdx1 has a very tough nose profile with rather sharp edges. This seems to lend it a lot of hoop strength, which explains why it is driven to such high velocities in factory loadings and still fails in some tests. The gold dot isn't bad either.

Yeah, I didn't try shooting through anything with resistance other than water. I just wanted to see what the petals looked like. I've heard nothing but good about the PDX.

 

[C-grunt]

With the pandemic scarcity I think people are starting to figure out why the 9mm isn't as great as it's been made out to be over the past 15 years or so. With hollow points it's okay but HPs are $2/shot now and are not in stock anywhere. All the 9mm you can actually buy now consists of pointy, smooth ogive little things that zip through tissue way too easily and can scarcely put down a rabbit. We're starting to understand why experienced people disliked the round for 100 years.

It's funny, this is just like the anti 5.56 threads. Lots of "Ive read" and "In the past" posts about the ineffectiveness of 5.56. But then when I think about my gunfights , talk to my friends who stayed in after I got out, and talking with other friends and family who fought in Iraq and Afghanistan, we all saw the 5.56 killing the enemy effectively.

Now it's 9mm ball. Ive seen a lot of people shot with 9mm ball. Both OCONUS and here. Mostly here though, by a large margin. Ive never seen it "zip" through people. Ive seen it punch holes through people. I have a few coworkers that have been shot with 9mm ball and it jacked them up. Surgeries, skin grafts, metal plates, months of physical therapy, amputations, etc...

 

[UrbanHermit]

It's funny, this is just like the anti 5.56 threads. Lots of "Ive read" and "In the past" posts about the ineffectiveness of 5.56. But then when I think about my gunfights , talk to my friends who stayed in after I got out, and talking with other friends and family who fought in Iraq and Afghanistan, we all saw the 5.56 killing the enemy effectively.

Now it's 9mm ball. Ive seen a lot of people shot with 9mm ball. Both OCONUS and here. Mostly here though, by a large margin. Ive never seen it "zip" through people. Ive seen it punch holes through people. I have a few coworkers that have been shot with 9mm ball and it jacked them up. Surgeries, skin grafts, metal plates, months of physical therapy, amputations, etc...

I don't think 9mm ball and 5.56 are remotely comparable.

 

[C-grunt]

I don't think 9mm ball and 5.56 are remotely comparable.

Never said they were. That's not the comparison being made.

 

[WrongHanded]

Regarding FMJs and flat meplats, I'd been thinking about this a little while ago.

According to reliable sources (the big bore bovine shooters we all know and love) copper mono solids are now preferable to hardcast lead because they are tougher and less likely to suffer deformation of the meplat. And hardcast is tougher than FMJ, so the same is true there too.

But assuming the flat meplats on an FMJ is not deformed, there are a couple variables to overall wounding performance. These are documented by Veral Smith in his book 'Jacketed Performance With Cast Bullets' (at least in the 3rd Edition I have). The variables are meplat diameter and projectile velocity. The larger the meplat, the larger the wound diameter. The faster the projectile, the large the wound diameter.

The chart (and other information) can be found here:
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html

I compared the meplats of 3 bullets. A 10mm 190gr Mono Solid from Buffalo Bore, a 180gr .40 cal FMJ-FP from RMR, and a 124gr .355 cal FMJ TC-FP from RMR. I honestly could not see a difference stacking one on top of the other. I tried using calipers, but that came down to deciding where the meplat ended and the micro-radius to the start of the ogive began. So to my eye, they all have the same meplat diameter.

Therefore, the difference in wounding between them (assuming the meplat does not deform) comes down to velocity. Look at the chart and see the difference that can make.

Either way, the flat meplats on .40 isn't very big. But it still exists, which is a bonus. Factory .357 Sig probably has a similar meplat and goes much faster (more wounding potential). But who can find that these days.

 

[UrbanHermit]

Never said they were. That's not the comparison being made.

I just don't like bullets where you can't even tell if you're hitting the target or not.

Regarding FMJs and flat meplats, I'd been thinking about this a little while ago.

According to reliable sources (the big bore bovine shooters we all know and love) copper mono solids are now preferable to hardcast lead because they are tougher and less likely to suffer deformation of the meplat. And hardcast is tougher than FMJ, so the same is true there too.

But assuming the flat meplats on an FMJ is not deformed, there are a couple variables to overall wounding performance. These are documented by Veral Smith in his book 'Jacketed Performance With Cast Bullets' (at least in the 3rd Edition I have). The variables are meplat diameter and projectile velocity. The larger the meplat, the larger the wound diameter. The faster the projectile, the large the wound diameter.

The chart (and other information) can be found here:
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html

I compared the meplats of 3 bullets. A 10mm 190gr Mono Solid from Buffalo Bore, a 180gr .40 cal FMJ-FP from RMR, and a 124gr .355 cal FMJ TC-FP from RMR. I honestly could not see a difference stacking one on top of the other. I tried using calipers, but that came down to deciding where the meplat ended and the micro-radius to the start of the ogive began. So to my eye, they all have the same meplat diameter.

Therefore, the difference in wounding between them (assuming the meplat does not deform) comes down to velocity. Look at the chart and see the difference that can make.

Either way, the flat meplats on .40 isn't very big. But it still exists, which is a bonus. Factory .357 Sig probably has a similar meplat and goes much faster (more wounding potential). But who can find that these days.

Some manufacturers seem to use wider metplats than others. I think the sharpness of the edge is a factor too, and is also different from one manufacturer to another. Regardless, even the worst 40 FMJ out there looks a heck of a lot better than pretty much any 9mm FMJ to me. I would almost sooner use it than 9mm HP, because you'd get drastically better penetration but only a slightly smaller wound channel.

 

[C-grunt]

I just don't like bullets where you can't even tell if you're hitting the target or not.

What are you shooting that you cant tell if you're hitting it or not?

 

[C-grunt]

Some manufacturers seem to use wider metplats than others. I think the sharpness of the edge is a factor too, and is also different from one manufacturer to another. Regardless, even the worst 40 FMJ out there looks a heck of a lot better than pretty much any 9mm FMJ to me. I would almost sooner use it than 9mm HP, because you'd get drastically better penetration but only a slightly smaller wound channel.

So you agree slight differences in wound channel size is not significant as long as you have sufficient penetration?

 

[Jim Watson]

I just don't like bullets where you can't even tell if you're hitting the target or not.

On a paper target I try to call my shots, where did I hit based on trigger stroke and sight alignment as the shot broke? If, as is allowed in USPSA and IDPA, I think I pulled a shot, I quickly put in a makeup. I do not peer at the target looking for bullet holes, that eats up more time than an extra shot.

On a live target, felon or big game, is he still standing?

 

[Kleanbore]

Fine, "incapacitation" then

What is it that leads you to believe that blood loss or a drop in blood pressure would be likely it effect a quick stop?

 

[UrbanHermit]

On a paper target I try to call my shots, where did I hit based on trigger stroke and sight alignment as the shot broke? If, as is allowed in USPSA and IDPA, I think I pulled a shot, I quickly put in a makeup. I do not peer at the target looking for bullet holes, that eats up more time than an extra shot.

On a live target, felon or big game, is he still standing?

What I mean is that there is much less of a visible reaction in meat targets and game when using bullets that lack frontal area. In a defensive situation, I feel this could translate into being unsure whether you actually hit an opponent or not.

There was a shooting carried out by a disgruntled reporter a few years ago that he recorded with a GoPro. In the footage, the shooter shoots a female coworker with a 9mm pistol several times. If you didn't know that she died from her injuries later, you would probably guess that he missed and she was just frightened by the muzzle blast and ran away, because there is no visible indication of hits at all. Imagine if instead of small woman, it was a grown man shooting back at you. You'd probably want your bullets to cause enough trauma so that you can clearly see that you've hit your opponent, and maybe even where you have hit him.

 

[UrbanHermit]

What is it that leads you to believe that blood loss or a drop in blood pressure would be likely it effect a quick stop?

I don't believe that. I believe it would result in a slow "stop". I might have to run or hide for quite a while before I'm no longer being pursued, especially with 9mm.

 

[C-grunt]

This guy reacted to a 9mm shot

 

[UrbanHermit]

This guy reacted to a 9mm shot

It won't let me watch it.

 

[CodeSection]

This guy reacted to a 9mm shot

Yep, seen this before.....good shoot

 

[C-grunt]

It won't let me watch it.

Go to Youtube, Search for Phoenix Police
Critical Incident Briefing: June 14, 2020 - Union Hills & 43rd Ave

 

[UrbanHermit]

Go to Youtube, Search for Phoenix Police
Critical Incident Briefing: June 14, 2020 - Union Hills & 43rd Ave

I managed to watch it. I'm not surprised that 9mm occasionally works as intended when used in conjunction with expensive hollow point ammunition issued by police that is not likely in stock at any gun store near me right now, especially against suicidal people who may be predisposed to fall down when shot.

 

[Kleanbore]

I'm not surprised that 9mm occasionally works as intended when used in conjunction with expensive hollow point ammunition issued by police

Do you know of any competent user evaluations that would indicate that 9mm does not usually work as intended with premium ammunition?

 

[C-grunt]

I managed to watch it. I'm not surprised that 9mm occasionally works as intended when used in conjunction with expensive hollow point ammunition issued by police that is not likely in stock at any gun store near me right now, especially against suicidal people who may be predisposed to fall down when shot.

Okay man. I see you are not going to change your mind no matter what is presented to you. You can hold on to your fudd lore and stories from my firend's uncle's cousins rommate.

I'll continue to rely on actual real world first hand experience, which oddly is backed up by what the experts say... weird.

 

[UrbanHermit]

Okay man. I see you are not going to change your mind no matter what is presented to you. You can hold on to your fudd lore and stories from my firend's uncle's cousins rommate.

I'll continue to rely on actual real world first hand experience, which oddly is backed up by what the experts say... weird.

The experts agree with me. They say the 9mm is adequate when used with modern bullet designs and is simultaneously easy enough to control for women and old people to use. I've never disagreed with any of that.

 

[C-grunt]

Im starting to remember why I stopped talking about this stuff on this forum. We get people who shoot groceries that try to say that data is better than actual real world results. Clown shoes.

 

[Palladan44]

This guy reacted to a 9mm shot

The LEO gave him every opportunity, nearly too much opportunity. Saw a very similar one, scarily similar....where an LEO pulled over a guy who stabbed his father in law over Covid and mask wearing, then fled.......pulled over by a lone LEO bout 10 minutes later....Perp. charged her (LEO)with the knife....took at least 3 rounds at 4-5 yds away, cleared a stovepipe with a tap, rack, bang when he closed in to less than 1 yd...then 3 more and he fell to his knees, threat over......has anyone seen this one? It's amazing how well she handled the situation.....however a lot of close range center mass hits were not immediately effective, at all. I think that was 40 s&w if I remember right....the more I learn about this SD subject, the more I learn that caliber doesn't matter when comparing the big 3 service calibers...it's just redundant pretty much.