Yeah - "pocket carry" to me is kind of vague. I will carry my G26 in a jacket pocket in a pocket holster. But I don't consider it a pocket pistol. If I can easily carry it in the front pocket of typical dress pants, I consider it a pocket pistol.
opinions on small 9mm pistols?
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jimbo555
Member
Most would consider a j-frame able to be carried in a pocket. Most of the new class of subcompact 9mm pistols are the same size or smaller.
To me, the next step from pocket pistol, either in weight or size, means belt carry - probably IWB.
And just my opinion, but carring IWB, with a good belt offers a greater range of options. Is it really that much of a difference between carrying an G26 versus a G19 IWB or a Kahr PM9 versus a Walther PSP?
I can see some advantages of having a small pistol like an PM9 or Boberg carried IWB, and each person has their own preferences, but getting a pocket pistol and then carrying it IWB has never made much sense to me - I've alway though it wouldn't make that much difference to get a slightly larger pistol and now you've got longer sight radius, better grip, better control, quicker follow-up shots.
Just my opinion.
And just my opinion, but carring IWB, with a good belt offers a greater range of options. Is it really that much of a difference between carrying an G26 versus a G19 IWB or a Kahr PM9 versus a Walther PSP?
I can see some advantages of having a small pistol like an PM9 or Boberg carried IWB, and each person has their own preferences, but getting a pocket pistol and then carrying it IWB has never made much sense to me - I've alway though it wouldn't make that much difference to get a slightly larger pistol and now you've got longer sight radius, better grip, better control, quicker follow-up shots.
Just my opinion.
This is an interesting question and I was discussing it the other day with some people. We had laid out a number of guns chambered for 9x19, and even a few of the smaller .380s. Bascially everything from the tiny 9s up to duty size guns. They were laid out from smallest to largest going left to right. The difference between any gun and the gun to its left or right was not particularly significant. Meaning you could grab anyone of them and make a pretty strong argument that carrying the next one to the right would not really be significantly more difficult or burdensome. Thus, it seems to me that argument is always present and can quickly take one from an LCP to a glock 17 if you don't draw the line somewhere. The difference between carrying those two guns is of course fairly pronounced. In sum, for any given size of gun carrying the next one up typically isn't a dramatic difference. There of course may be a point where for some people it simply does become to difficult to conceal given their wardrobe etc.
As to carrying very small guns on a belt instead of a pocket. The argument for putting it on the belt has less to do with hiding it and to me MUCH more to do with accessing it. It has been my experience with a number of guns over the course of a few years of training and doing force on force, that getting to a pocket gun in a reactive situation is simply MUCH slower and more difficult than getting to a gun on a belt.
The other consideration is that putting a really small gun on ones belt, IME, often does not really make it anymore difficult to carry or conceal, or any less comfortable. Your point about a slightly larger gun being easier to carry does come up when it comes to the belt. A pocket is, due to space constraints, naturally more limiting in what can be carried.
I guess the first question one should address is how comfortable they are with pocket carry for a primary weapon. For me I don't particularly favor it, but have been reduced to it at various times. The strength of my objection does vary with the pocket in question. I actually like pocket carry for a BUG in some situations. The guns that will fit in a pocket are themselves limiting pistols.
I always suggest people really get out and do some significant training and testing with their primary carry setup. This allows one to identify problems, limitations, etc and address them if needed or at least be aware of them. Sometimes one finds that what seemed good in theory, actually kind of sucks in practice.
In sum, the limitations of pocket carry, combined with the limitations of the guns, particularly ones chambered in 9x19 that will reasonably fit in my pockets, make for a pretty compelling argument against pocket carrying a 9mm as a primary gun. This type of training is also necessary to develop the skills to effectively use the equipment one has.
The above is just my opinion. However, it is an opinion informed by more than just thinking about it all.
Big_John1961
Member
I have a Kahr PM9 and it has been outstanding, with zero malfunctions over about 500 rounds. It shoots very well, has a great trigger and is slim and easy to carry. Great gun and highly recommended. 7 rounds of 124 gr +P Speer Gold Dots and you're rockin' and rollin'.
For single stack 9s I like S&W 3913 or 908.
Your version of "small" may vary. These particular 3rd gens aren't exactly a pocket-frame, but then again, I think the desire for "smaller" is often a misplaced priority driven by a simple lack of experience.
Your version of "small" may vary. These particular 3rd gens aren't exactly a pocket-frame, but then again, I think the desire for "smaller" is often a misplaced priority driven by a simple lack of experience.
Hunter125
Member
I'd like to hear more about people's experiences with the Taurus PT 709. I was at Gander last night looking at upgrading from my 738 and held several of the small 9mm's:
BP9cc - $400 - Felt great, first time holding one, a little on the large side
DB9 - $379 - Too small for my comfort, felt like I would get slide bite like crazy
CM9 - $499 - Seemed high, felt okay, not as impressed as I thought I would be
LC9 - $379 - Good price, felt good, not a huge fan of the safety (more the style of the safety)
PT709 - $329 - Felt the best to me, safety was in a place that fit my hand well, though I'd still have to get used to having a safety at all, best price in the case
The 709 seems like the winner, but what do you all think of it.
BP9cc - $400 - Felt great, first time holding one, a little on the large side
DB9 - $379 - Too small for my comfort, felt like I would get slide bite like crazy
CM9 - $499 - Seemed high, felt okay, not as impressed as I thought I would be
LC9 - $379 - Good price, felt good, not a huge fan of the safety (more the style of the safety)
PT709 - $329 - Felt the best to me, safety was in a place that fit my hand well, though I'd still have to get used to having a safety at all, best price in the case
The 709 seems like the winner, but what do you all think of it.
I have never handled let alone fired the PT709 but a from what I have read around here over the years is that Taurus firearms are not held in high esteem.
The two I would be most comfortable with would be the CM9(I own a PM9) or the LC9.
The price is about right for the LC9 but that dealer is charging way too much for the CM9.
The two I would be most comfortable with would be the CM9(I own a PM9) or the LC9.
The price is about right for the LC9 but that dealer is charging way too much for the CM9.
Hunter125
Member
Anybody have experience with the Bersa BP9cc?
meanmrmustard
Member
I don't know, replacing a $5 every 200 rounds on any gun adds up, especially if I don't HAVE to set up a schedule to buy a damn spring.
I carry + P, and therefore, I practice with it. So, to me, it's important to have a firearm with the ability to use hotter ammo in the gun if I so choose. For the price, I wouldn't buy this gun.
meanmrmustard
Member
Improvement, small or large, is still improved.
I carry and practice with my carry piece with +p, only makes sense.
With a $1000 price tag, there's better guns for drastically cheaper, that still can be deep concealed.
I'm glad you like yours, though.
JohnBT
Member
Better guns? Where? 
I'm still not seeing it, even with an additional 20 to 30 fps shooting +P. That mattered a lot more to me before they improved the bullet designs.
It always seems to come down to price, doesn't it? I used to be on a budget, but that was a long time ago - well before I paid the house off in '97.
John
I'm still not seeing it, even with an additional 20 to 30 fps shooting +P. That mattered a lot more to me before they improved the bullet designs.It always seems to come down to price, doesn't it? I used to be on a budget, but that was a long time ago - well before I paid the house off in '97.
John
meanmrmustard
Member
Even with disposable income, I'm not paying a G for the R9. $5 here or there is still a bit ludicrous after very several hundred rounds, as well.Better guns? Where?
It always seems to come down to price, doesn't it? I used to be on a budget, but that was a long time ago - well before I paid the house off in '97.
John
Those that support them say "I don't shoot that many anyway."
Why not? You don't practice or ascertain the reliability of your carry weapon? Foolish.
Speer lists there 9mm at 1220 fps. Double tap + p at over a 100 fps higher pushing the same 124 gr slug. Speed kills too, and I wholly agree with the hydrostatic shock capabilities of fast, rapidly expanding rounds in tissue.
The R9 is not recommended for use with hotter ammo, and its overpriced. All it has going for it is compactness. I see its super flyweight as a hindrance; I cannot shoot guns that light with any accuracy even at close range, nor are they comfortable enough to me to practice with.
Plus, the OP never stated pocket carry was an option. It never has been for me.
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If you want to say that there are guns that are a better value, more bang for the buck, that's one thing.
I put the Rohrbaugh in the same class as Arne's guns as far as quality, fit and finish. But the Boberg is not drastically cheaper.
There is no 9mm that is lighter, and has smaller overall dimensions that is better (higher quality) than the Rohrbaugh - period. There certainly is no 9mm that is lighter, smaller, better and drastically cheaper.
I put the Rohrbaugh in the same class as Arne's guns as far as quality, fit and finish. But the Boberg is not drastically cheaper.
There is no 9mm that is lighter, and has smaller overall dimensions that is better (higher quality) than the Rohrbaugh - period. There certainly is no 9mm that is lighter, smaller, better and drastically cheaper.
Racinfan83
Member
In my opinion, nothing beats the S&W M&P Shield for the price. But you gotta FIND one first...
meanmrmustard
Member
I have one!!!
Racinfan83
Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racinfan83 View Post
In my opinion, nothing beats the S&W M&P Shield for the price. But you gotta FIND one first...
I have one!!!
Me too! I wish I had ordered two instead of one though....
Originally Posted by Racinfan83 View Post
In my opinion, nothing beats the S&W M&P Shield for the price. But you gotta FIND one first...
I have one!!!
Me too!
I wish I had ordered two instead of one though....exdetsgt
Member
I rather like the Beretta Nano. You can pocket carry it easily, but I wouldn't. I carry it either in a Beretta-made IWB (depending on whether I can still button my trousers or not - some of my trousers' waistbands are a bit roomier than others) but most of the time in a small leather belt holster. Much easier to access rapidly Single stack, 6+1. Very well made and as accurate as my Glock 26, which is saying a lot. I have shot them together at the range. No significant difference in accuracy. Both sights are spot on.
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I have a PT709. I have not had any problems with it. It has eaten all of the 450 rounds I have fed it EXCEPT for some 124gr "gun show special" ammo, and I have read that 124gr Winchester White Box is a no-no. Perhaps I have been lucky. Online reviews are mixed. I like mine. I want to run some more rounds through it. Easy to carry and conceal.
I also have a CM9 - a recent addition at $400 from my LGS. Just started the break-in with Federal and Aguila; no issues so far. A bit of a long trigger pull, and I'm getting used to the sights, but it shoots VERY well so far given the short sight radius.
I handled an LC9 in the store. I liked the feel/size/heft, but that trigger was rather atrocious. Not heavy, but LOOOOOONG...and the reset was LOOOOOONG too. Though I hear that the Galloway Precision trigger system upgrade will fix that.
I handled a DB9. Didn't like it, but that's entirely subjective.
Hope this helps.
golfer_ray
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I have one. I owned a Kahr CW9 previously & IMHO the Bersa is better built. They are very similar to each other. I bought mine for $359 new & it shoots very straight. Nice slim profile but the grip is long enough for my big hands. The only drawback which is well documented on the internet is that the mags stick, but I'll keep it.
I have a pt709 as well. Great pistol and I like the feel. It is sensitive to limp wristing but I think a lot of these small pistols are. Plenty of happy owners over at taurusarmed.net. it has had a problem with less than recomended loadings but that is kind of expected. My full size astra a95 had the same feed problem with that ammo too. Picking up a shield next week so ill see how they compare. A lot of people will dump on taurus but I think they have come a long way. Lifetime warranty. I bought mine used and when I had some fte I sent it in. They replaced the slide no questions asked and had it back in a week. And it turns out it was the ammo.
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