Outrage in Richmond VA

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So I was looking at old drawings of Christians being martyred...

There were old drawings of Xians being twisted, impaled, restrained, and burned in so many creative ways... it was truly impressive. Among the commentary was a reflection of Hobbes who said (paraphrased) that:

if people will do such horrors to one another while acting within the law, how much worse will be a society without laws?

And it struck me, people WILL do the most horrible things to others while acting within the law. They WILL DO IT!
DOn't forget, these Christians being pulled apart by tying rocks to their limbs and string them up in various ways was a LEGAL, authorised punishment for their 'crime'.

Then, and I know i risk the 'anti-cop' label that pops up on THR when people write things like i am about to (*), I had a sad thought:

Nevermind how many good, decent, honest, pro-rights, truly- American peace officers we have on this forum; how many Law Enforcement professionals will do horrible things to others when ordered?

How many?

Do i really want that answer?

C-


(*): Please, understand i am pro-law and order, pro-public servants, pro-peace officers. Peace officer meaning one who is comitted to keeping the peace. I distinguish these from 'Law Enforcement' officers who will simply do exactly as their title implies; enforce any law they are ordered to. "LE" has unfortunately become a mainstream term. It should not be. It is in fact, a kind term for other groups that have historically been called JBT's, or Einstazgruppen, or Gestapo, or STASI, etc.
So I direct my comments not to peace officers (and I expect THR is populated in the main by those), but only to those who will be described as an 'enforcer'. Am i making sense?
 
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So as the naysayers are choking on crow, my blood is still boiling over this. Not only at the JBT's involved, but at those on here who defended them or said this is no big deal, it's not real, it couldn't happen. Wake the <blank> up! As I've said in other threads, it won't be long before someone decides enough is enough. There will be no justice served in this matter. A lawsuit may be filed, but no amount of fine would ever be sufficient punishment for the abhorrant actions of that day. Certainly nothing short of imprisonment of every LEO present and involved would constitute 'justice'.

I.C.
 
Henry Bowman... an effort to explain (not a flame) -

Why Virginia? Maybe "Why VCDL"?

Probably because they kind of go together these days. VCDL was instrumental in Virginia going "shall issue" in the mid Nineties and has continued pressing - and succeeding - in adding good stuff and eliminating or reducing bad stuff re the General Assembly and local jurisdictions.

IIRC the 2003/2004 VCDL's General Assembly effort brought forth some sixteen new or modifications of firearms related law. This year we - yes, we, as I am a member - have accomplished a bit more. We're still working on troublesome things like recent restrictions around some airports; carry on school grounds, etc.; some local hard-cases still trying to outfox the total pre-emption law passed last year; concealed carry in restaurants serving alcohol (open carry is legal); and the subject of this thread - gun shows.

I'd suggest that Virginia is in someone's crosshairs because we've been successful in defeating much - not all - of the antis' agenda and someone is trying to take us down a peg.

That won't happen easily, but if people - all over - don't wake up, the next couple elections could mean something awful for gun enthusiasts... and for (most) everyone else.

I invite you to browse http://vcdl.org - participate in the free VA-Alert maillist for gun-related updates and info, read the governor wannabees' questionaire, some history, etc.

It'll give you an idea of VCDL's value to the 2nd A - and vice versa.

Thanks for your attention.

AndyB
Ironbarr
 
After talking with several people in the ATF headquarters, Gelles said she finally spoke with a supervisor, whom she would not identify, who assured her that ATF "is out of the residency check business, effective immediately."
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So she's throwing around the RAC's name, but not this mystery supervisor. Why so coy all of the sudden?

And some folks wonder why I'm skeptical. upeyes.gif

BTW, all CNS did was repeart the initial allegations from what was said earlier by the one guy who posted on the minuteman forum, and Gelles. Where's the confirmation?

Still skeptical, and kbr80 and cropcirclewalker, I used the small rolling eyes, because the mods get upset if I post the big ones too often:
 
that is totally outrageous - I'm writing my congresscritters (federal) and demanding an investigation! :cuss:
 
There is plently of time to make our elected representatives life's a living hell. I just want to have a lead pipe cinch on the facts of what happened. CNS is great place to start. I suspect a few other organizations will be investigating. Let's get all the facts out on the table. Keep eyes open for repeat performances in other cities. But keep focused on the Richmond incident.

Yea, we are disturbed but now is the time to be ice-cold blooded. I say this because the implications of what happen are incendary. There is plenty of time to be outraged. Let's get the facts down cold first.
 
FYI the G. Gordon Liddy show did an interview on this.

I'd like another source to confirm - but Liddy interviews one of the guys who was supposedly harassed at the gun show.

It's interesting listening. The showmasters site has pictures of the HUGE police presence at the show, which was also "interesting."

http://tinyurl.com/7czv6

Forgive me if someone already posted this.
 
How many uniformed police are at the C&E show at the Showplace? I think I normally count a couple in the front checking in firearms and maybe another two or three walking around. (I admit I don't pay that close attention)

They're saying they had 70+ something out in the parking lot, with 4 cruisers with their lights on and pointed towards the entrance...now that I think I would've noticed.
 
I have been to several Richmond gun shows, and there is usually a police car or two in the parking lot, and a table at the entrance with a couple of nice policemen who will ziptie your weapons before you enter. All very polite, very nice.

The police presence in those pictures is FAR FAR above what we normally see.
 
Yes, Mr. DMF, when you said

BTW, all CNS did was repeart the initial allegations from what was said earlier by the one guy who posted on the minuteman forum, and Gelles. Where's the confirmation?
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The thought struck me........

The good little state apologist that you are, this would be an opportune time to debunk this whole (perceived by you as a) tempest in a teapot. Yes, you have access to .gov sources and yes, you can ask them questions without being put under the microscope.

Now would be a good time for YOU to log on with some names with quotable attributes disclaiming that this whole criminal act did not occur.

Not just to appease me, but for the good of the forum.

So she's throwing around the RAC's name, but not this mystery supervisor. Why so coy all of the sudden?
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Now's yer chance.

Let a lack of coyness be your guide. :neener:

Not holding my breath.
 
Just so everyone knows - I made Representitive Virgil Goode aware of these allegations and forwarded him the initial VCDL email alert.

He copied me on a letter (real letter, not email) that he sent to the Legislative Affairs Office of the BATFE demanding any information on the accuracy of these allegations.

I will share the results when I receive them.

Really, I hope that all this turns out to be false or at least exaggerated. I'd much rather be a little embarassed then oppressed. :eek:
 
It speaks volumes.
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Yeah it does, it speaks volumes about your tinhatted conspiracy laden BS, that you think any lowly employee in the federal government can just call up someone in another agency, and just demand info and quotes. :rolleyes:
 
As a state employee for 30+ years I'd say it depends on who you know...and if they like you. ;)

And if you call a Richmond government phone number there's a good chance it won't even be answered. I moved here from Blacksburg in '72 and bought my house in 1980, so I've had the pleasure of dealing with them.

And to the skeptics I say - it's a free country. But why keep arguing and crying that the developing story isn't meeting your exacting standards?

John
 
Okay folks: could someone enumerate the laws violated by the cops in question, assuming this is true? If true, what laws did the 400, I mean 78 cops violate? What will the Republican party/GW/Local PD/Supreme Court/Founding Fathers be sued for?
 
The one I see mentioned the most is U.S. Code Title I8, Part I, Chapter 44 - 922. Now maybe (ii) and (iii) allow the police to ask a gun buyer's neighbor if they're aware of the pending gun purchase, but it still looks like invasion of privacy and/or misuse of power to me. JT

(B) Unless the chief law enforcement officer to whom a statement is transmitted under paragraph (1)(A)(i)(IV) determines that a transaction would violate Federal, State, or local law—
(i) the officer shall, within 20 business days after the date the transferee made the statement on the basis of which the notice was provided, destroy the statement, any record containing information derived from the statement, and any record created as a result of the notice required by paragraph (1)(A)(i)(III);
(ii) the information contained in the statement shall not be conveyed to any person except a person who has a need to know in order to carry out this subsection; and
(iii) the information contained in the statement shall not be used for any purpose other than to carry out this subsection.
 
JohnBT-

Without getting into the ramifications towards liberty of the 4473- falsification is a felony. ATF has responsibility for enforcing the law. They were (possibly) verifying information provided on the 4473. I will admit that I don't know the specific 18 USC section covering the 4473, but I am having trouble seeing any violation of the law that would justify making "heads roll," the firing of every officer involved, and/or the manning of barricades.
 
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