Outrage in Richmond VA

Status
Not open for further replies.
It looks to me like the argument/defense is switching from "No, I did not have sex with that woman." to "So, ok, but it's not an impeachable offense"

Hey, I don't know if it's a crime worth rolling heads, but I can recognize intimidation.

I guess them big cities back east have so much money that they can dedicate 400 cops to a gun show for 2 days and call it run of the mill. Down here in the woods, I would be for rolling back the city budget.

No, wait, they must have had federal matching funds or something.
 
My take on the problem.

If they verified the buyer's address by asking "Does so-and-so live here?" it's one thing.

If they asked a neighbor (or anyone) "Do you know so-and-so is buying a gun right now?" it's something else entirely.

John
 
I read through all of this

And I am not happy with a few things.
Number 1> the nanny nanny boo boo arguing I had to read to get to the "meat" of this.
Number 2> that this is being watched after a conversation with "a supervisor" at the ATF. This shouldn't be "watched" it occurred and thus a court case needs to follow to stop this (nip it in the bud) now. If we are "watching" eventually attention will die down and it will be tried again. We need a legally enforceable ruling pertaining to this type of abuse.
Number 3> The most obvious... Harrassment of law abiding citizens hoping to catch "that one guy" and then trying to use any "catch" as a reason to enact more laws.

Note: #3 and #2 are tied in... if they had a "catch" don't you think they'd use that to prove their case and infringe on rights? Well we have THEM on an infraction and should not hesitate or "wait and see". We need to strike while the iron is hot and use this as a means to curtail the agency's reach.

Thank you.... Rant off. :fire:
 
MODERATOR NOTE

Everyone take a deep breath, please.

There will be no further insults on this thread. It would be nice if those who have insulted others would apologize for doing so, but that's optional. What is not optional is that the squabbling will stop, effective immediately.

If you have a valid point to make, make it. If you just want to slam other people, go over to arfcom or something.

pax
 
In a spirit of reconciliation, Mr. DMF, I would like to apologize if I have made insulting comments. Sometimes in the heat of the moment, I get carried away.

Further, I was unaware that you were just a lowly employee in the federal government. I thought you were actually somebody, you know, with access and like that. You are usually very good with links to law and atf and all like that. I thought you had access.

Sorry. :eek:
 
Frosty,

Would be nice if we could all just get along, wouldn't it?

I don't think that is going to happen.

Some seem to forget that we are all on the same side here. The only difference is that some of us are urging caution.

I read the cns report and listened to the interview on GGL's radio show and went to the NRA's news link.

The cns piece is full of weasel words, "alleged, suspected, etc" the only sources for the piece are the VCDL, Lalime, and someone from the gun show. Pretty much the same cast of characters as we have had all along.

The interviews on GGL's show are the journalist from cns and Lalime. GGordon doesn't add anything to the mix. Lalime actually sounded a little confused and kept referring to himself as "the tip of the iceberg".

The NRA newslink is actually the CNS article.

The cns report actually adds very little to the mix, the only extra was Ms. Gelles, who owns showmasters, talking about the increased police presence.

I think that the additional coverage of this is a good thing. I would like to hear from someone who does not have an agenda or something to gain from this. I would like to hear from some of the families and neighbors who were contacted.

While we are all on the same side, we approach this from different angles.

Some are so willing to believe that the government is evil that they will believe anything that shows the government in a bad light, often it seems, the more outrageous the better.

Some are urging caution, being sure of the facts before calling for "heads to roll and urging people to take to the rooftops".

I am on the side of caution.

There are many here that have criticized the cautious, they say we are anti rkba, anti gun, and shudder the worst yet, pro government.

No, we are pro truth. Look at it this way, if there was a news release from an orginiztion you didn't believe in, if the story only cited 3 actual people, out of hundreds supposedly affected, would you embrace it so rabidly?

Of course not. That doesn't mean that you don't think it could be true, it only means that you want to be sure, before giving your emotional energy to it.

If I was working in the government and wanted to discredit VCDL, the gun show owners and gun owners in general, this is one way I would go about it.

I would leak reports to the most pro gun orginization in the area, I would withhold names and details. I would encourage the orginization to "get the word out".

Once the word was out, I would have a citizen make a claim about abuse from federal, or was it state, or county, he doesn't always seem too sure, agents. Again, with the only verification being his word.

Then when questions start to surface, ie. "How could the city devote so many officers and man hours to this, without it being noticed?" I would turn loose one more source, the gun show owner. Now the owner noticed increased police presence and a drop off in attendance. What do you expect her to say? Oh, one thing she did say is that she has no problem with the state police.

In the meantime, the RKBA community has their attention and energy divided. They are no longer focusing on forwarding the cause but on attacking each other over a percieved lack of commitment.

And when it is all over and done with? If the story turns out to be false the forces of good are damaged to a great extent. They got out the tin foil hats and started spouting theories about how the gubmint was out to take all the guns. They are wacko and should not be trusted with weapons.

And if the stories turn out to be true? We have expended so much energy fighting amongst our selves that we don't have the strength or interrest to see that there is a real change in policy. We have been so busy calling for "heads to roll, every officer involved on any level should be fired, etc." that we look like fools. When a few token people are offered up there will be a couple of days of talk on the internet and then it will disapear, until the next time.

And all because we let ourselves go off half cocked and start fighting amongst ourselves. Instead of waiting for the facts to come out, formulating a plan and sticking to it, we are running all over and atacking each other.

We should be ashamed.

DM
 
cropcirclewalker,

I read your apology to DMF. At first I thought "how nice" he is going to apologize. Then I noticed the sarcasm, "Mr. DMF".

Followed by the reference to DMF being just a lowly employee, and not having access to real information and sources. All finished up with the little :eek: sorry. What a crock.

Why do you have to be that way? This is exactly the sort of stuff we need to avoid.

You have shown yourself to be a person of low character and small mind. You should be ashamed.

DM
 
could someone enumerate the laws violated by the cops in question, assuming this is true? If true, what laws did the 400, I mean 78 cops violate? What will the Republican party/GW/Local PD/Supreme Court/Founding Fathers be sued for?
Click to expand...

There is a fundamental right to freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. Attending a public gathering such as a gunshow directly involves both. By going to one's home and "asking" about a spouse/relative/etc. activities, the gov't causes a chilling effect on attending such shows. After all, do you want to go to the show if buying something will end up with a cop at your day? The chilling effect is increased by going to a neighbor and asking about your activities.

The ATF, if they were really interested in confirming identity and address, has plenty of other means to do so that do not impose a burden on the people, let alone cause a chilling effect. The fact that other less intrusive means exist means they failed the duty owed to protecting fundamental freedoms, said duty being to choose the least intrusive means of carrying out the state's action.


This is all first year Constitutional law stuff, folks, and doesn't even get into the issue of whether the Second Amendment is a fundamental right or not.

So the suit in question would be an injunction against the gov't from engaging in these activities with possibly a 42 § 1983 suit against the individual officers for violations of civil rights under color of authority.
 
Darned if I do, Darned if I don't

Followed by the reference to DMF being just a lowly employee, and not having access to real information and sources. All finished up with the little sorry. What a crock.
Click to expand...

Mr. Double Maduro, you are either being disingenuous or don't read the posts.

"Just a lowly employee" were his words, not mine :(

If the Paxter locks up this thread, it's on your head, not mine.
 
It seems to me that "the meaning of it all" has been beaten to death.

I've not seen any hard information to give clarification to what's alleged to have happened. Nor, that nothing happened.

Why not give it a rest? Watch, maintain contact as you can with the people involved, and then post when there is something to add?

Art
 
The blind eye

"Without getting into the ramifications towards liberty of the 4473- falsification is a felony. ATF has responsibility for enforcing the law."

First, mere forms do not possess "liberty."

Second, if falsification IS reasonably suspected - and the alleged wholesale interrogation of THIRD PARTIES suggests that there was no such probable cause or focused investigation - then the means are not conducive to the ostensible end.

Third, this non-analysis ignores:

a. Blatant violations of privacy concerning firearms records; and

b. The chilling effect consequent to (and almost certainly intended as such) regarding citizens lawfully exercising their rights of assembly, speech and firearms ownership.

NOW do you grasp why people on this board are upset? :scrutiny:
 
"We have been so busy calling for "heads to roll, every officer involved on any level should be fired, etc." that we look like fools."

We? Speak for yourself. I have done no such thing and neither have the majority of others participating in the thread.

I will continue to follow VCDL and Mr. Van Cleave's lead. He's a proven quantity with years of meaningful successes to show for it.

John
 
UPDATE-Phil VanCleave

From Phil. See end for BATFE stuff.
TC

I was interviewed a few minutes ago by Channel 12 here in Richmond.
They were covering the pneumatic gun ordinances that are being
rewritten by the Chesterfield Board of Supervisors thanks to VCDL
members who spoke against the original wording in some proposed
ordinances.

If it weren't for you, then even adults couldn't shoot a BB gun in
their own houses or on their own property in Chesterfield! Also, in
a separate ordinance, no one would be able to carry a loaded gun
within 100 feet of a park or school.

The second ordinance would have been struck down in Court because the
County had inadvertently not copied all the enabling language from
Virginia law. The County can only prevent a HUNTER from carrying a
loaded gun with 100 feet of a school or a park, not someone carrying
a gun for self-defense.

I, of course, have no idea which sound-bites they are going to use tonight.

The coverage is supposed to be on the 6 PM news. I don't know if it
will also be on at 11 PM.

I was interviewed by a Richmond Times-Dispatch reporter last night,
so hopefully we will see a story there in the near future.

Finally, I was interviewed on WRVA this morning by Jimmy Barrett. Jimmy was very interested in the BATFE incident.
Click to expand...
 
Art Eatman,

I've not seen any hard information to give clarification to what's alleged to have happened. Nor, that nothing happened.

Why not give it a rest? Watch, maintain contact as you can with the people involved, and then post when there is something to add?
Click to expand...

Exactly.

Rather than wasting all of our energy fighting amongst ourselves, let's get the facts straight and then do something constructive.

DM
 
JohnBT,

John, you know from reading my post that I did not mean that all were calling for this radical approach. There have been many level headed posts to this thread, there have been some less than level headed.

We need to know a lot more of the facts before we go rushing all over the place talking about what should be done, or screaming "the sky is falling."

Many, you included, have approached this from a practical perspective. I believe you are one of a few who have tried to get answers to the questions.

If you, or any others, got the feeling I think all of us are calling for drastic action, or that you were included in that small group, I am sorry, it was not my intention.

My intention was merely to get us to take a step back, back from our emotions and egos, back to where we can see the forest in spite of the trees.

Nothing is served by rushing off calling for action before all of the facts are in.

Nothing is lost by waiting until we are sure of the facts and then acting on them.

DM
 
"It is the invariable habit of bureaucracies, at all times and everywhere, to assume– that every citizen is a criminal. Their one apparent purpose, pursued with a relentless and furious diligence, is to convert the assumption into a fact. They hunt endlessly for proofs, and, when proofs are lacking, for mere suspicions. The moment they become aware of a definite citizen, John Doe, seeking what is right under the law, they begin searching feverishly for an excuse for withholding it from him."
-Henry Louis Mencken
 
I urge everyone, including our diligent Mods here, to thoroughly re-read the above postings by BeLikeTrey and Tory. They drill through the emotional drek by some... AND the highly-disappointing, duck-for-cover pro-forma defensive postings by certain (*ahem*) LEO's here, too.

That a federal agency, operating in a joint local-LEO task force, SWARMED this gunshow with unprecedented presence and intensity (with no apparent reason) is beyond contention. That fact alone, as Tory points out, is a clear example of a strategy intended to have a chilling effect on citizens' LEGAL exercise of totally legitimate 1st AND 2nd Amendment rights.

Regardless of the motives behind this scheme, simply allowing it to go away -- or tacitly encouraging 2A rights supporters to now pursue some let's-go-easy/play nice-nice strategy -- is a recipe for long-run victory by the Gun-Grabbers and their dirty-work hand-maidens. They must be challenged quickly, and on multiple fronts. And that means, as BeLikeTrey advocates, by new federal LEGISLATION which SPECIFICALLY OUTLAWS this stuff. I'm talking a new Firearms Owners Protection Act. Let's get it on the table now-- and let's see WHICH Congressmen (and agency bureaucrats and politically-appointed/beholden police operatives) oppose it.

Yeah, more investigation is certainly needed. For example, we need to discover exactly WHY this operation was put in place. However, does anyone really have any doubt that the various gov't agencies involved will do their best to deny, deflect, and play CYA? It's the nature of that beast.

I've been there/done that myself. Read the book. (Helped write it.) Seen the movie. And so have a bunch of other High Roaders.

Read My Lips: Don't let 'em off the hook, folks.
 
somebody beat me to sayin it...

somebody beat me to sayin it... :D
 
Last edited by a moderator:
From the cnsnews

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=\SpecialReports\archive\200508\SPE20050823a.html

Gelles said ATF Resident Agent in Charge Brian Swann told her that the officers were part of a "Virginia State Police, ATF task force" and represented the "same amount of force that we've used in all the shows." The only difference in Gelles' case, Swann told her, was that the command post was established at the site of her gun show.
Click to expand...
In addition to VCDL (1), we have Gelles (2) (obviously a with a feduciary interest) naming an ATF name. Attributing to him the statement that VSP and ATF are mixed up in a "Task Force" to what? Monitor parking at gunshow? With the same amount of force (see photos previously linked) we've used at all the shows. I guess they do this a lot except that this is the first time anybody has noticed.

Virginia State Police (VSP) spokeswoman Corinne Geller told Cybercast News Service that her agency does participate in a task force with ATF and other Virginia law enforcement agencies. As part of the agreement that created the task force, Geller said, VSP agreed to refer questions regarding its operations to ATF.
Click to expand...
Ms. Geller (3) did not deny that VSP was involved in the "Task Force" with ATF and other LE agencies, she only referred the writer to ATF.

Richmond Police spokeswoman Kirsten Nelson e-mailed her response to questions about the apparent sting operation.

"I have done some checking and as I said on the phone, the gun show was not in our jurisdiction," Nelson wrote, "so I have no record of our officers' participation."
Click to expand...
Talk about weasle words. Ms. Nelson (4) did confirm that the gun show occured, and she did NOT deny that her dept was involved in the "Task Force", only that she had no record.

Lt. Doug Perry with Henrico County Police acknowledged that his department's officers took part in the operation, but he would not say how many participated.

"We wouldn't normally release that anyway. That's part of our operational plan, the number of officers involved," Perry said. "We're not on overtime when we're doing that so it wouldn't be public information."
Click to expand...
Lt. Perry (5) was a little more forthcoming. He did call it an "Operation", just wouldn't tell how many officers.

James Lalime, who works part time for a gun dealer <snip>, claims a man approached him and verbally identified himself as an ATF agent but did not show his credentials or badge. <snip> When he found the agent, who identified himself as Special Agent Brian McComas, Lalime claims McComas tried to intimidate him. <snip> Lalime claims Swann interrupted the confrontation and the two federal officers walked away. <snip>
Click to expand...
you can read the whole on the site Lalime makes (6) A citizen who took names and stated his real identity.

After more than a half-dozen calls by Cybercast News Service seeking comment for this article, an ATF spokesman said the agency was "still gathering information" about the events of Aug. 13 and 14 and would not be able to comment until sometime on Tuesday.
Click to expand...
The ATF (7) can use weasel words too. They won't be able to comment about "the events of Aug. 13 and 14" until sometime Tuesday. :scrutiny:

What day is today? Wednesday?

So, we have 7 attributuble sources all confirming in some form or other that the "task force/ operation/ sting/ event" took place and that there was an ATF/VSP/LEO presence. Sometime Tuesday ATF will tell us what it was.

Parking lot surveillance? Anything else has to be wrong/abuse/intimidation/wasteful.

I repeat my question.......Whose budget will permit 400 (78?) officers to work for 2 days on a parking lot surveilance operation.
 
Lt. Doug Perry with Henrico County Police acknowledged that his department's officers took part in the operation, but he would not say how many participated.

"We wouldn't normally release that anyway. That's part of our operational plan, the number of officers involved," Perry said. "We're not on overtime when we're doing that so it wouldn't be public information."
Click to expand...
Do I read the quote to say the information is not public unless officers are on the taskforce while on overtime????? :what:

Whad he say?????????
 
Tory wrote:

"Without getting into the ramifications towards liberty of the 4473- falsification is a felony. ATF has responsibility for enforcing the law."

First, mere forms do not possess "liberty."
Click to expand...

Perhaps I did not write it well enough or you have a reading comprehension problem. I was asking the reader to overlook the effect that the existence of the 4473 (and the information demanded) has on personal liberty. Yes, I would have to agree that forms do not posess "liberty." Why you would choose that interpretation of my somewhat hastily written words is beyond me.

Second, if falsification IS reasonably suspected - and the alleged wholesale interrogation of THIRD PARTIES suggests that there was no such probable cause or focused investigation - then the means are not conducive to the ostensible end.
Click to expand...

The agents performed field interviews. "Interrogation" tends to imply some sort of custodial situation. One means of verifying the health of a system (accuracy of the data provided) is by taking samples. As the data came in, ATF was checking it. The "ostensible end" (health of the 4473 system) would seem to be well served by sampling and such sampling would be conducive to that end. Not aware of any requirement for suspicion of falsification.

Third, this non-analysis ignores:
Click to expand...
Never meant it to be an analysis. I was asking for (and still haven't received) ideas as to specific violations committed by the officers/agents in question. I was seeking information.

a. Blatant violations of privacy concerning firearms records; and

b. The chilling effect consequent to (and almost certainly intended as such) regarding citizens lawfully exercising their rights of assembly, speech and firearms ownership.
Click to expand...

Not sure if there is a reasonable expectation to privacy when it comes to those records (besides the admonition against computerizing them and creating a de facto registration scheme). IRS can look at your tax records. Social Security has access to SSA records. TSA can look at travel information.

Chilling effect? You are on to something there.

NOW do you grasp why people on this board are upset?
Click to expand...
I grasped the fact that people were upset and why before you chose to raise the points above. It would be nice if there were an MSM source. I haven't come around to trusting that the online news/bloggers/etc. are using the same standards of attribution and verification as the MSM do.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

B
  • Locked
BATFE sinks to a new low in Richmond
Replies
1
Views
426
Preacherman
P
B
  • Locked
Virginia, BATFE & hidden cameras?
Replies
22
Views
1K
cordex
C
B
  • Locked
Hearing on BATFE Abuses (from NRA-ILA) Feb 15
Replies
13
Views
792
LAR-15
L
P
  • Locked
ATF agents harass/intimidate Richmond, VA gun show buyers & sellers
Replies
9
Views
2K
makanut
M
R
  • Locked
VA Gun shows 29-30 March
Replies
12
Views
645
zoom6zoom
Z
Back
Top