Paging Varminterror: can you break down the 6mms for us?

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@Varminterror for any people considering PRS-type competiton or just long-range target shooting (or hunting, I guess), can you please give us your take on the various 6mms that have exploded in popularity the past few years? From a novice's standpoint they all appear to be very similar. Why would someone choose, say the 6mm Dasher over the 6 creedmoor, 6 GT, 6 BR, etc?

A related but obviously different question: for longer-range HUNTING specifically, would you stay with the 6mms or would you move up to 6.5 or 7mm or a 300 mag or something? Thanks!

Of course any other knowledgeable people feel free to chime in.
 
Sure - I actually wrote a bit on this last fall which I'll share here. In hindsight, I kind of regret including the top and bottom cartridges in the photo below which really don't fit in the line up - the 6 ARC at the bottom and the 243win at the top, but they're relatively familiar to a lot of folks, AND, both represent the outer bound of "too little" and "too much," so at the time, it seemed pertinent to include them.

I want to first shape this discussion a little by talking about what is popular, why, and how folks can make these decisions:

1) Affirming here - shooting anything but a 6mm in PRS competition is self-limiting. Some guys play with 22 GT's and Creeds, some have played with 25 Creeds, and the 6.5 Creed still hangs on, especially with new shooters, but the 22's have less target response and less splash, making them harder to spot, and the 25's and 6.5's need more horsepower and deliver more recoil, also making them more difficult to self-spot, so the 6mm's are firmly defending the "sweet spot" for PRS competition. Any other choice has consequences.

2) 6 BR based cartridges are BY FAR the most popular cartridges used in the PRS. The 6 CREED has often been the most popular single cartridge at the PRS finale any given year, but calibrating this, that can be due to location of the match, and the fact there are multiple BR based cartridges and only one Creedmoor version.

2) Acknowledging again why --> PRS is a game of recoil management. We shoot from compromised positions with the pressures of time and movement, but we have to be able to SEE our shots, either impact/target responses or miss splashes. We're also shooting long range, with the average distance fired at most PRS matches somewhere between 600-800 yards. Bigger cases will shoot flatter, which makes targets wider in the wind, BUT, it also means the rifle pushes the shooter farther off of target, potentially losing critical information from our shots which could be used to deliver the next shot on target. So some shooters may keep multiple rifles to suit different matches: For example, I have a rifle in 6 Creed and another in 6 Dasher, I'll shoot my Dasher for the Punisher Positional in July where ranges are all under 1,000yrds and there is NO traditional prone on any stages, whereas I'll shoot my 6 Creed at King of Coal Canyon in New Mexico next month since it's predominantly prone focused and has longer range opportunities.

3) Most PRS shooters reload, but compared to say, F-class or Benchrest, there are far more PRS shooters using factory ammo than these other match formats. So some shooters might choose a cartridge based on factory ammo availability. For example, in 2018/2019 when Robert Brantley (PRS Pro shooter, King of 2 Mile winner and placer, and worldwide hero to kittens) decided to focus more on ELR than PRS, he rebarreled his rifle to 6.5 Creed and shot factory ammo all season. This limits options considerably - the 6 Creed and 6 GT, or buying boutique ammo for Dasher or BRA from places like Clay's Cartridge Company.

5) In the photo below, cut the 6 ARC off of the bottom and 243win off of the top, and pick one of the rounds in between, and you won't be "wrong". Personally, I'd only choose 6 BRA, Dasher, GT, or Creed, and I DO shoot the 6 Dasher and Creed for PRS (my son is dead set on shooting a GT).

432E3152-E6FF-46A6-88D5-2FBB22C60E7F.jpeg

6 ARC – The ARC shouldn't really be here, but it's becoming familiar to some folks, AND within its division of PRS, it's the best option. It's slightly longer than the BR, but a smaller diameter, so a little less case capacity overall. There are typically only one, two, or three competitors in Gas Gun at any given 2 day Pro Series match - and usually those guys are shooting large frame AR's in 6 GT or Creed, or guys are shooting 5.56 or 308, BUT if a guy were shooting Gas Gun division and didn't want a large frame AR, the ARC is far and away the best choice. A 24" barreled gas gun will get 108 class bullets up to about 2700fps, which makes targets pretty narrow at long range (extra wind drift). In a Bolt Action rifle with a bit more barrel and more pressure, it can get up over 2900fps. But the ARC is pushing hard to do this, whereas a 6 BR can do the same with less pressure, or do more at the same pressure. Personally, I weigh two problems for 6 ARC in a bolt gun for PRS - 1) it uses an uncommon .440" boltface, which makes changing cartridge more expensive in the future, and 2) it's kind of a Beast with No Nation when it comes to powder selection. It's a bit too small for H4895, and typically, the best performance is found from Leverevolution, which is highly temperature sensitive. So 6 ARC is the best option for a small frame Gas Gun Division rifle, but a small frame Gas Gun is a worse idea than a large frame, and Gas Gun Division is a worse idea than Open, TAC, or Production with a bolt gun, and in a bolt gun, eh...

6 BR – The 6 BR and its descendants have made up about half of the field at the Precision Rifle Series Finale, but there are too many BR based variants for any one of them to make up the single-most-popular round in the game. With the BR as the parent case, shorter than the rest with lower capacity, it’s also the slowest. The BR will push a 105/108 class bullet up around 2800fps without pushing pressures. Stupid simple to load, stupid accurate. H4895's up to Varget. Straight BR's tend to be less popular than the improved variants, for the extra speed they bring to the table, but straight BR used to be more popular in the East.

6 BRA – the BRA retains the neck of the BR in the same position, and is a true Ackley Improved form, only blowing out the shoulder to a steeper angle. This adds just enough capacity to pick up a hair under 100 fps over the parent, but also helps reduce trimming. A lot of guys are finding H4895 to be the magic dust for BRA, but Varget performs exceptionally well here also. BRA is very popular among the crew of shooters I run with in Kansas and Oklahoma, and good quality brass is available with no fireforming from Alpha.

6 Dasher – the Dasher not only blows the shoulder to a steeper angle, but also blows it forward, picking up even greater case capacity, and greater speed. At maximum pressure, Dashers can knock on the door of 3000fps with some 105/108 class bullets, but typically around 2950 keeps things behaving well (I personally run mine around 2850 with a very mild load). Varget is the King of the Dasher, while some guys do use H4350 or H4895 - but personally, I think the BRA is really maxing out the case for H4895, and the Dasher's slight increase in capacity puts it firmly center in the "sweet spot" of Varget. A lot of us still make Dasher brass from Lapua 6 BR, but Alpha and Peterson make Dasher brass.

***Other BR Based Cartridges: Lumping these guys together here, there are cartridges like 6 BRX, BRDX, BRI, etc which are different twists on this or that between the BR and Dasher (if memory serves BRDX is actually blown forward farther than the Dasher, but is very similar).

6 GT – The new kid on the block, designed by George Gardner and Tom Jacobs (G & T). These guys designed the GT case to get the most speed as they could from Varget with 105-110 class 6mm bullets, without needed to step to a slower powder like H4350. Great barrel life, and exceptional efficiency – the GT pushes through 3000fps with mild pressures while still using low 30-something grain charge weights and holding stable for 2500-3000 rounds. The GT is SAAMI standardized, so unlike the BR based cases, and most of the rest of this list, the GT is available as factory ammo, and even factory rifles. Personally, I think frequently that if I were starting over, maybe I wouldn't use 6 Creeds at all because the barrel life is so much better with the GT. George & Tom designed it to be "as big as it can be to still use Varget," so some shooters find it falling off of the edge of Varget and prefer H4350 for GT.

6x47L – a necked down 6.5x47L, this wildcat has a niche following. The x47 will exceed the performance of the smaller cases, pushing up in the 3050-3100fps ballpark without riding the pressure limit, and the rest of this list of larger cases do start eating barrels faster than some folks would prefer – certainly faster than the previously discussed smaller cases. I know a lot of Dasher and Creed shooters which report the x47L as finicky, but in the only loading I did for it, it was just another option to 6 creed, not really a worse or better option.

6 XC (XCII) – Developed by David Tubb for Cross the Course Highpower matches (hence “XC”) the 6 XC has earned a loyal niche following of PRS shooters. Originally, the 6 XC was a 22-250 based wildcat, but Norma started making brass - which created a unique situation where tight chambers meant for fireformed 22-250 brass would eventually get sticky after a couple of firings with fatter Norma factory brass, so the XC II chamber came about - leaving a little more room at the base to eliminate that click after cases grow with firing. Kestrel & Magnetospeed Pro Shooter Ryan Hey swears by 6XC, which might both demonstrate it's a good round, but also that it takes a wild streak to choose it.

6 Creed – The son of the 6.5 Creedmoor, this is another SAAMI standardized cartridge on our list. The Creed case is on the cusp of “too large” for PRS use – it can and does push these 105-110 class bullets right up against the 3200fps speed limit enforced at PRS matches to protect range steel, and eats barrels in half of the time of the BR based cartridges. However, the 6 Creed has been the most popular single cartridges used in the last handful of PRS finales by world leading shooters, making up somewhere around ¼ to 1/3 of the field at the Finale. H4350 is the easy button here, but when barrels are toast by 1400 rounds, a 6 Creed shooter can never get too comfortable. 6 Creed also has the luxury, or curse, depending upon how you view it, of having brass available both in large and small rifle primers. Shooting my 6 Creed during matches typically feels smart - my targets are "wider" than most of the rest of the field, but afterwards, when I dump brass after a match, I think about my barrel round count and I feel a little bit like I'm pulling single-use tires off of a Drag Racer... Every match is 10-20% of my barrel life, and it really sucks to say that out loud.

243 Win – We're slipping off of the edge of "too big" with the 243win. It takes a little consideration to fit long ogive, high BC, heavy 6mm bullets into mag length with 243win, and we typically have to use custom throats and obviously fast twist barrels... None of which are actually problems, because it all works and is all known science - BUT... The 243win has too much case capacity for PRS, and will easily exceed the 3200fps maximum muzzle velocity "speed limit" of the PRS with most of the bullets we use in the barrel lengths we use them (predominantly for forward balance). AND... the 243win is a little more finnicky to load, and has more case growth due to its taper and sloping shoulder, AND we only have one option for small primer brass, which is to form brass from Lapua Palma... AND we're still living at the very top of the recoil threshold for the sport, AND we're eating barrels in ~900 rounds. I shot 243win and AI for over 2 dozen barrels before I started shooting PRS, 750-1000rnds was all I'd get from barrels. Everything I did with 243win and 243 AI was aimed at making it do what we do now with the 6 Creed, so I won't likely revisit the 243win again. Pro Shooter Todd Williams has shot most of his career with 243wins, and made it to the Finale multiple times with it, even in the last couple of years.
 
for longer-range HUNTING specifically, would you stay with the 6mms or would you move up to 6.5 or 7mm or a 300 mag or something?

I separated this, since it's certainly separate from PRS application, and is obviously asking more of my personal subjective calculus, rather than objective comparison of cartridges.

"Hunting" and "longer-range" are relatively broadly defined contexts, much moreso than the context of PRS. Naturally, I'd consider different cartridges to be "ideal" if I'm hunting coyotes or elk. And equally, "longer range" might mean 400yrds to some folks or 800yrds to others - "long range" as defined by the NRA and general shooting sports vs. simply shooting "longer than the common whitetail hunter."

In general, I want a bigger cartridge for "longer-range hunting" than what I use for PRS.

I also have a contextual problem - I own rifles better suited for hunting than my PRS rifles, also which are chambered in bigger cartridges than I need for PRS. So given opportunities to hunt at long range, where I do NOT have the contextual limit of recoil as a disadvantage, I'll just take one of these lighter, harder hitting rifles, because I own it.

I HAVE hunted deer, coyotes, and hogs at 600-800 yards with 243wins, and I wouldn't feel under-gunned to do most of that work with my 6 Creed, or really even 6 Dasher. I grew up in the era of magnumitis, so a big part of me wants to use a bigger caliber in a bigger cartridge for elk, and even want more horsepower for deer past 400yrds, but I wouldn't bat an eye at sending a 6 Dasher after a coyote or hog at 800, or even farther. My "out of state" big game rifles are a 300wm and 300 PRC, my wife's is a 7RM. I MIGHT struggle to decide whether I wanted to use one of my .30-06 Sporters at 750yrds for deer over my 6 Creed match rifle.

Maybe better aligned, I got a barrel for my Seekins rifle over the winter to let me convert to a lighter, more powerful configuration for NRL Hunter matches. So I can swap my 6 Creed which weighs 22lbs into a 15.8lb 6.5 PRC in about a half hour (meeting maximum weight and minimum power factor requirements for NRL Hunter). With THAT rifle, I'd hunt any animal in North America as far as I can hold my groups within the size of the heart, or 2/3 of the lung at largest, which caps me personally around 750-800.

But I acknowledge, I've killed deer with 22-250's and 223's, so I KNOW it works, even though I tend to want more horsepower and bullet weight. So my personal subjective preferences pretty heavily cloud my judgement of proven, objective results.
 
What burns those barrels up so fast? ...and what is deteriorating? The throats?


Yes the throats iirc and Pressure plus heat is what burns the barrels up again iirc your using more powder in a bigger case to do the same thing that the smaller cartridges are doing ie push a long 6mm match bullet to a useable velocity I’m of course referring to the 6mm Creedmoor which is slightly Overbore for my taste vs the smaller 6mm br or dasher

@Varminterror if I got anything wrong please feel free to fix it
 
What burns those barrels up so fast? ...and what is deteriorating? The throats?

Shooting rifles burns up barrels - some cartridges just do it more quickly than others. There are a lot of contributing factors to this science, and among them, I think expansion ratio is likely the only "big knob" in the picture; but powder composition, powder charge, pressure, and velocity all contribute to barrel wear - I'm convinced these much less than expansion ratio.

The leade is eroded forward, but we see firecracking within the rifled bore for a few inches, erosion of the lands for several inches... Empirically, we tend to see 5-7thou of leade erosion per hundred rounds, more for cartridges with greater "over bore ratios," and less, naturally, for less "overbore" cartridges.

Also calibrating here - when I talk about barrel life, I'm talking about stability of performance. Once broken in, after 150 rounds or so, barrels typically will offer VERY consistent group size and velocity with a given charge for a long time, and it's this period that I consider to the "life of the barrel" for PRS use (and did for benchrest and Service Rifle competition as well). I'm 11 barrels deep into 6 creedmoor, and every one of them so far has lost speed by 1200 rounds, so asking them to survive to 1400-1500 rounds means I'm tolerating gradual velocity loss, and my barrels behave differently by the last shot of a 2 day PRS match than they were on the first shot ~220 rounds earlier. That's pretty serviceable for 1 day PRS matches where we're only shooting 80-100 rounds, but for a 2 day match, ESPECIALLY any dirty/dusty match location or suppressor only match where we might need to push a few patches between Day 1 and 2 to ensure the rifles keep running right on Day 2. Generally, I've seen barrels start giving up around 15fps per hundred rounds when they start slipping, and that accelerates pretty quickly - one of my 6 Creed barrels was giving up over 30fps per 100 rnds by the time I pulled it off of the rifle. Conceding, even these "burned out barrels" will still shoot ridiculously small groups at 100yrds, any of them still holding well under 1MOA, and usually often still hanging onto about 1/2moa for 3-5 shots at 100. But they're not reliable at long range throughout 100-200 rounds - and when I consider each 2 day, Pro Series match costs me ~$1000 and each 1 day Regional Series match costs me ~$300, I don't really have interest in milking an extra few hundred rounds out of a barrel which might take a dump and cost me a lot of ranking places at a match... But those barrels will generally still shoot better than any factory rifle on the market, but we pull them off and stick them in the garden to hold up tomato plants.
 
Sure - I actually wrote a bit on this last fall which I'll share here. In hindsight, I kind of regret including the top and bottom cartridges in the photo below which really don't fit in the line up - the 6 ARC at the bottom and the 243win at the top, but they're relatively familiar to a lot of folks, AND, both represent the outer bound of "too little" and "too much," so at the time, it seemed pertinent to include them.

I want to first shape this discussion a little by talking about what is popular, why, and how folks can make these decisions:

1) Affirming here - shooting anything but a 6mm in PRS competition is self-limiting. Some guys play with 22 GT's and Creeds, some have played with 25 Creeds, and the 6.5 Creed still hangs on, especially with new shooters, but the 22's have less target response and less splash, making them harder to spot, and the 25's and 6.5's need more horsepower and deliver more recoil, also making them more difficult to self-spot, so the 6mm's are firmly defending the "sweet spot" for PRS competition. Any other choice has consequences.

2) 6 BR based cartridges are BY FAR the most popular cartridges used in the PRS. The 6 CREED has often been the most popular single cartridge at the PRS finale any given year, but calibrating this, that can be due to location of the match, and the fact there are multiple BR based cartridges and only one Creedmoor version.

2) Acknowledging again why --> PRS is a game of recoil management. We shoot from compromised positions with the pressures of time and movement, but we have to be able to SEE our shots, either impact/target responses or miss splashes. We're also shooting long range, with the average distance fired at most PRS matches somewhere between 600-800 yards. Bigger cases will shoot flatter, which makes targets wider in the wind, BUT, it also means the rifle pushes the shooter farther off of target, potentially losing critical information from our shots which could be used to deliver the next shot on target. So some shooters may keep multiple rifles to suit different matches: For example, I have a rifle in 6 Creed and another in 6 Dasher, I'll shoot my Dasher for the Punisher Positional in July where ranges are all under 1,000yrds and there is NO traditional prone on any stages, whereas I'll shoot my 6 Creed at King of Coal Canyon in New Mexico next month since it's predominantly prone focused and has longer range opportunities.

3) Most PRS shooters reload, but compared to say, F-class or Benchrest, there are far more PRS shooters using factory ammo than these other match formats. So some shooters might choose a cartridge based on factory ammo availability. For example, in 2018/2019 when Robert Brantley (PRS Pro shooter, King of 2 Mile winner and placer, and worldwide hero to kittens) decided to focus more on ELR than PRS, he rebarreled his rifle to 6.5 Creed and shot factory ammo all season. This limits options considerably - the 6 Creed and 6 GT, or buying boutique ammo for Dasher or BRA from places like Clay's Cartridge Company.

5) In the photo below, cut the 6 ARC off of the bottom and 243win off of the top, and pick one of the rounds in between, and you won't be "wrong". Personally, I'd only choose 6 BRA, Dasher, GT, or Creed, and I DO shoot the 6 Dasher and Creed for PRS (my son is dead set on shooting a GT).

View attachment 1145626

6 ARC – The ARC shouldn't really be here, but it's becoming familiar to some folks, AND within its division of PRS, it's the best option. It's slightly longer than the BR, but a smaller diameter, so a little less case capacity overall. There are typically only one, two, or three competitors in Gas Gun at any given 2 day Pro Series match - and usually those guys are shooting large frame AR's in 6 GT or Creed, or guys are shooting 5.56 or 308, BUT if a guy were shooting Gas Gun division and didn't want a large frame AR, the ARC is far and away the best choice. A 24" barreled gas gun will get 108 class bullets up to about 2700fps, which makes targets pretty narrow at long range (extra wind drift). In a Bolt Action rifle with a bit more barrel and more pressure, it can get up over 2900fps. But the ARC is pushing hard to do this, whereas a 6 BR can do the same with less pressure, or do more at the same pressure. Personally, I weigh two problems for 6 ARC in a bolt gun for PRS - 1) it uses an uncommon .440" boltface, which makes changing cartridge more expensive in the future, and 2) it's kind of a Beast with No Nation when it comes to powder selection. It's a bit too small for H4895, and typically, the best performance is found from Leverevolution, which is highly temperature sensitive. So 6 ARC is the best option for a small frame Gas Gun Division rifle, but a small frame Gas Gun is a worse idea than a large frame, and Gas Gun Division is a worse idea than Open, TAC, or Production with a bolt gun, and in a bolt gun, eh...

6 BR – The 6 BR and its descendants have made up about half of the field at the Precision Rifle Series Finale, but there are too many BR based variants for any one of them to make up the single-most-popular round in the game. With the BR as the parent case, shorter than the rest with lower capacity, it’s also the slowest. The BR will push a 105/108 class bullet up around 2800fps without pushing pressures. Stupid simple to load, stupid accurate. H4895's up to Varget. Straight BR's tend to be less popular than the improved variants, for the extra speed they bring to the table, but straight BR used to be more popular in the East.

6 BRA – the BRA retains the neck of the BR in the same position, and is a true Ackley Improved form, only blowing out the shoulder to a steeper angle. This adds just enough capacity to pick up a hair under 100 fps over the parent, but also helps reduce trimming. A lot of guys are finding H4895 to be the magic dust for BRA, but Varget performs exceptionally well here also. BRA is very popular among the crew of shooters I run with in Kansas and Oklahoma, and good quality brass is available with no fireforming from Alpha.

6 Dasher – the Dasher not only blows the shoulder to a steeper angle, but also blows it forward, picking up even greater case capacity, and greater speed. At maximum pressure, Dashers can knock on the door of 3000fps with some 105/108 class bullets, but typically around 2950 keeps things behaving well (I personally run mine around 2850 with a very mild load). Varget is the King of the Dasher, while some guys do use H4350 or H4895 - but personally, I think the BRA is really maxing out the case for H4895, and the Dasher's slight increase in capacity puts it firmly center in the "sweet spot" of Varget. A lot of us still make Dasher brass from Lapua 6 BR, but Alpha and Peterson make Dasher brass.

***Other BR Based Cartridges: Lumping these guys together here, there are cartridges like 6 BRX, BRDX, BRI, etc which are different twists on this or that between the BR and Dasher (if memory serves BRDX is actually blown forward farther than the Dasher, but is very similar).

6 GT – The new kid on the block, designed by George Gardner and Tom Jacobs (G & T). These guys designed the GT case to get the most speed as they could from Varget with 105-110 class 6mm bullets, without needed to step to a slower powder like H4350. Great barrel life, and exceptional efficiency – the GT pushes through 3000fps with mild pressures while still using low 30-something grain charge weights and holding stable for 2500-3000 rounds. The GT is SAAMI standardized, so unlike the BR based cases, and most of the rest of this list, the GT is available as factory ammo, and even factory rifles. Personally, I think frequently that if I were starting over, maybe I wouldn't use 6 Creeds at all because the barrel life is so much better with the GT. George & Tom designed it to be "as big as it can be to still use Varget," so some shooters find it falling off of the edge of Varget and prefer H4350 for GT.

6x47L – a necked down 6.5x47L, this wildcat has a niche following. The x47 will exceed the performance of the smaller cases, pushing up in the 3050-3100fps ballpark without riding the pressure limit, and the rest of this list of larger cases do start eating barrels faster than some folks would prefer – certainly faster than the previously discussed smaller cases. I know a lot of Dasher and Creed shooters which report the x47L as finicky, but in the only loading I did for it, it was just another option to 6 creed, not really a worse or better option.

6 XC (XCII) – Developed by David Tubb for Cross the Course Highpower matches (hence “XC”) the 6 XC has earned a loyal niche following of PRS shooters. Originally, the 6 XC was a 22-250 based wildcat, but Norma started making brass - which created a unique situation where tight chambers meant for fireformed 22-250 brass would eventually get sticky after a couple of firings with fatter Norma factory brass, so the XC II chamber came about - leaving a little more room at the base to eliminate that click after cases grow with firing. Kestrel & Magnetospeed Pro Shooter Ryan Hey swears by 6XC, which might both demonstrate it's a good round, but also that it takes a wild streak to choose it.

6 Creed – The son of the 6.5 Creedmoor, this is another SAAMI standardized cartridge on our list. The Creed case is on the cusp of “too large” for PRS use – it can and does push these 105-110 class bullets right up against the 3200fps speed limit enforced at PRS matches to protect range steel, and eats barrels in half of the time of the BR based cartridges. However, the 6 Creed has been the most popular single cartridges used in the last handful of PRS finales by world leading shooters, making up somewhere around ¼ to 1/3 of the field at the Finale. H4350 is the easy button here, but when barrels are toast by 1400 rounds, a 6 Creed shooter can never get too comfortable. 6 Creed also has the luxury, or curse, depending upon how you view it, of having brass available both in large and small rifle primers. Shooting my 6 Creed during matches typically feels smart - my targets are "wider" than most of the rest of the field, but afterwards, when I dump brass after a match, I think about my barrel round count and I feel a little bit like I'm pulling single-use tires off of a Drag Racer... Every match is 10-20% of my barrel life, and it really sucks to say that out loud.

243 Win – We're slipping off of the edge of "too big" with the 243win. It takes a little consideration to fit long ogive, high BC, heavy 6mm bullets into mag length with 243win, and we typically have to use custom throats and obviously fast twist barrels... None of which are actually problems, because it all works and is all known science - BUT... The 243win has too much case capacity for PRS, and will easily exceed the 3200fps maximum muzzle velocity "speed limit" of the PRS with most of the bullets we use in the barrel lengths we use them (predominantly for forward balance). AND... the 243win is a little more finnicky to load, and has more case growth due to its taper and sloping shoulder, AND we only have one option for small primer brass, which is to form brass from Lapua Palma... AND we're still living at the very top of the recoil threshold for the sport, AND we're eating barrels in ~900 rounds. I shot 243win and AI for over 2 dozen barrels before I started shooting PRS, 750-1000rnds was all I'd get from barrels. Everything I did with 243win and 243 AI was aimed at making it do what we do now with the 6 Creed, so I won't likely revisit the 243win again. Pro Shooter Todd Williams has shot most of his career with 243wins, and made it to the Finale multiple times with it, even in the last couple of years.
Your second point about recoil is a good one!
I can see myself now... Showing up to a prs match with my 1in7.5 twist Light Palma Remington 700 25-06 cause "it's a 25 cal it's the new hotness" and getting hammered by the brutal recoil of a 06 based cartridge in a relatively light gun. Even my 90gr CX loads are a thumper! Especially from a bench... Am I crazy for wanting to do that for fun just once?
 
Am I crazy for wanting to do that for fun just once?

A moderately uncouth, but genuinely well-meaning uncle of mine used to say, "Doing something dumb for fun, once, doesn't make a you a chump. Just don't come back for seconds - you're supposed to learn your lesson the first time."

I've been tempted to take my 6 Creed specialty pistol to a regional match, and frankly, I built 2 AR's, a large frame and a small frame, for PRS use - which is an absolutely terrible idea. I used to shoot PRS matches pretty frequently with a guy who had a 7mm WSM; those mags only hold 7 rounds, he had to port drop the last 3 rounds of every stage, which meant two of them came from the "match saver" quiver on the side of his stock, and the 10th round was tucked into his headband! He had fun with it though. I'd rather see someone shoot a match with a 25-06 than never shoot one at all though!
 
I assume a 6 creed that isn't used in competition.......targets, hunting and such.......will have a longer barrel life?

So nuther question.........where we may start picking fly crap out of the pepper...........while perusing Krieger barrel options in 6mm, I notice they give two bore diameter options..........0.237 and 0.236. Most 6mm Sammi specs show bore diameter of 0.237. Grooves then to .243.

So diameter of 0.236 meaning lands / rifling cutting deeper into bullet?

So if given those two bore diameter options in 6mm, which one would a guy pick and why?
 
I assume a 6 creed that isn't used in competition.......targets, hunting and such.......will have a longer barrel life?

It SHOULD, but I'm not terribly convinced this is true within real world context of realizable barrel life - not when the same standards for performance are applied. Lots of folks say "if a barrel never gets hot, it'll last longer," or might say "don't use double base powders with high nitroglycerin content because they burn hot and smoke barrels, or "run lower pressure loads, your barrel will last longer," but in testing these hypotheses myself, they've fallen apart - the difference between two barrels seems to be more significant than any difference we can make intentionally.

For example - I burned a couple of barrels in 223rem and 243win which never were shot rapidly, just plinking and hunting, but I didn't see significant change in barrel life over my competition and prairie dog rifles which were shot as fast as they needed to be shot. I have a 6 Creed specialty pistol which hasn't ever been fired hot, but so far, it seems the throat erosion is keeping pace with what I've seen from any of my other 6 creeds. I ran H1000 through one of my 6 creed barrels, supposedly much cooler burning than H4350, and it still didn't last longer. I ran one barrel 2 full grains below max, over 300fps slower than potential, and it ended up being my SHORTEST barrel life of any I have burned in the cartridge, by a LOT of rounds. Alternatively, I had one barrel out of a fleet of 3 barrels which ran faster than either of the others by ~80fps - faster than any of the 11 others I've had, with the same load - and it ended up holding barrel life longer than the others by almost 500 extra rounds. Same exact chamber dimensions, same brand barrel ordered at the same time, cut by the same smith with the same reamer, same load, same harmonic node - but it was considerably faster for some reason, and it lasted a lot longer, also for some unknown reason.

I agree, all of the theory SHOULD pan out - lower speeds, lower pressures, and lower temperatures SHOULD make barrels last longer - but even trying to make these things pan out, I’ve not been able to do so. The difference between two barrels is greater than any difference I've been able to influence. Button rifled vs. CHF vs. cut rifling makes much bigger difference in barrel life.

So nuther question.........where we may start picking fly crap out of the pepper...........while perusing Krieger barrel options in 6mm, I notice they give two bore diameter options..........0.237 and 0.236. Most 6mm Sammi specs show bore diameter of 0.237. Grooves then to .243.

So diameter of 0.236 meaning lands / rifling cutting deeper into bullet?

So if given those two bore diameter options in 6mm, which one would a guy pick and why?

Bore diameter - .237 vs. .2365 vs. .236" - differentiation is really getting down into the weeds, and at the very best, we can point to the fact neither is wholly dominating, other than to acknowledge .237" is standard and more common, and common is commonly dominating...

“Cutting 1 thou deeper” may be a good thing, may be a bad thing - while it means more “grip,” it also means more deformation to the bullet and more damage to the jacket.

So we can look at things like cut rifling vs. pull button vs. push button, R lands vs. polygonal vs. conventional 90 degree lands, 6 groove vs. 5 groove vs. 4 groove, or jacket thickness and core ductility of specific bullets and have much, much bigger influence on performance, or introduction of problems, than I've ever seen demonstrated by the difference between .237" vs. .236".
 
Any thoughts on the 6 BRX @Varminterror ? Or 6 BRBS?

These are two that I lumped into the ***Other BR Based Cartridges section above, because Benchrest and F-Class shooters have been tweaking BR based wildcats for a long, long time. So I didn't try to list and describe all of them there because 1) I didn't have cases to include in the photo, 2) these others are far less common and are largely custom wildcats maybe 10-20 dudes in history have ever shot, and 3) they don't really deviate from the same discussion points. The smaller capacity variants of the BR case reach ~2800fps using H4895, a little small for Varget, whereas the Dasher at the other end can top 2950 with Varget, but a little big for H4895... I mentioned the BRX there, but kinda forgot about Shehane's BRBS - but there are a bunch of BR based wildcats which are blown out and or blown forward to various dimensions.

Some of these BR variants are more common than others, which means some have better market support than others. As I mentioned above, Straight 6 BR, plus 6 BRA and 6 Dasher have factory brass available, whereas these other wildcats based on the BR case like BRI, BRX, BRDX, BRBS, etc would all require fireforming from BR (or BRA or Dasher) brass. Equally, there are standard/factory offerings for dies for BR, BRA, and Dasher - I know Redding used to offer BRX dies, but they were in the "custom" dies line which cost almost twice as much as BR or Dasher dies, from their "standard" cartridge line. I'd expect the BRI, BRDX, and BRBS would even require a custom reamer to be made, whereas most PRS rifle builders will have Dasher, BR, and BRA reamers on hand (not a terrible idea to buy reamers of your own for your barrels anyway). In effect, if you order a BRI, BRDX, or BRBS, you're ordering a custom dimension reamer and telling them to copy someone else's custom reamer they've made before, and then having custom dies made with a respective custom die making reamer to match the chambering reamer you ordered - where you COULD just as well be spec'ing your own reamer dimensions for a "6 BR1K" wildcat, as the process would be the exact same, and once it all arrives, you have to fireform brass... Or you can order 6 BR, BRA, or Dasher dies and brass, have a smith make your barrels with a common reamer, and be ready to rock, right out of the gate.

BRX is another BR variant, which has the standard 30 degree BR shoulder blown forward to have a Dasher-ish length neck. Obviously more case capacity than straight 6BR, it should have relatively similar to, maybe slightly larger capacity than BRA, but less capacity than Dasher. I know some guys do use BRX for PRS, but I personally wouldn't pick a BRX over a BRA: these two have very similar case capacity and speed, but the more sloping shoulder of the BRX will allow more case growth in firing, will generally be a little less efficient, and since BRX is less common than BRA, you're stuck with ordering a reamer and custom dies.

BRBS is another BR variant, but similar to the BRDX, basically blowing out a Dasher shoulder farther than the Dasher - same parent case, but shorter neck. Shehane's BRBS is a fire-form only option on brass, and requires a custom reamer and custom dies... It should still be well fed with Varget. I might be a little wary of that itty bitty neck, as Dasher already only has ~.24x" neck length, and BRBS is even shorter, so there might be some complication with throating for different bullets vs. seating the boattail junction below the shoulder junction - I don't know that for sure, but I'd explore a lot of bullet dimensions before I ordered A BRBS or BRDX... Personally, it's just too easy to do a Dasher, so like picking a BRA over a BRX above, I'd pick a Dasher over a BRBS or BRDX.
 
@Varminterror what's your thoughts on the bigger case 6mms like 6rem,6-284,240wb, for example. As a kid I read one of my dad's gun books and the 6-284 always caught my eye, back then(probably the 70-80s) they didn't really have the powders and they were disappointed in the speeds. Maybe today there are some powders that may work well but I still don't think it's worth the fuss to get a few more fps then say the 243/6rem and use more powder and really burn the barrel up. I always thought a 6.5 jap or 35 rem case necked down would be cool.
 
@troy fairweather - for PRS use, there is absolutely no sense in any case bigger than 6 creed. As I mentioned, the Creedmoor case already pushes the biggest high BC bullets right up to the 3200fps speed limit, and barrel life and recoil are already a problem. Adding more would cross into illegal speeds and tank barrel life to less than 750 rounds. I know a few guys do run 6-284’s, 6 Saum’s, 6 PRC’s just for kicks and kinks sometimes, using their hunting rifles for fun at regional matches, but it’s not really a part of the game. Kinda like when a guy shoots a match wearing a Borat swimsuit…

For hunting, sure. Big case 6’s bring a lot of violence on impact. I had a 6-284 for a while and a 6-06, and they were gnarly deer killers. Admittedly, these days, I’d rather add bullet weight and give up speed, even if I end up under 3000fps, which is why my LR hunting rifles are a 6.5 PRC barrel for my Seekins and a couple of 300 magnums, wm and PRC. Even my wife’s 7RM, we’re running with 180grn bullets. But like I said, I recognize my personal bias of Magnumitis, even when I know I don’t need that much bullet.
 
@troy fairweather - for PRS use, there is absolutely no sense in any case bigger than 6 creed. As I mentioned, the Creedmoor case already pushes the biggest high BC bullets right up to the 3200fps speed limit, and barrel life and recoil are already a problem. Adding more would cross into illegal speeds and tank barrel life to less than 750 rounds. I know a few guys do run 6-284’s, 6 Saum’s, 6 PRC’s just for kicks and kinks sometimes, using their hunting rifles for fun at regional matches, but it’s not really a part of the game. Kinda like when a guy shoots a match wearing a Borat swimsuit…

For hunting, sure. Big case 6’s bring a lot of violence on impact. I had a 6-284 for a while and a 6-06, and they were gnarly deer killers. Admittedly, these days, I’d rather add bullet weight and give up speed, even if I end up under 3000fps, which is why my LR hunting rifles are a 6.5 PRC barrel for my Seekins and a couple of 300 magnums, wm and PRC. Even my wife’s 7RM, we’re running with 180grn bullets. But like I said, I recognize my personal bias of Magnumitis, even when I know I don’t need that much bullet.
Ok I should have been clear not for prs, I know the 3200 rule about the only one I know lol. I do think 3000k is almost a magic speed for hunting, not to fast at least by time it hits the animal but still carries speed with high bc bullets.
 
Ok I should have been clear not for prs, I know the 3200 rule about the only one I know lol. I do think 3000k is almost a magic speed for hunting, not to fast at least by time it hits the animal but still carries speed with high bc bullets.
My 6.5 PRC launches 150gr SMKs at the mid 2700 fps range. Not stupid fast, basically the same as 30-06 ball but with a better ballistic coefficient.
 
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