Perceptions of the US by Middle Eastern immigrants

[MikeG]

Not all Middle Eastern people are here to do us harm. Many are refugees from the same totalitarian governments and groups that we mistrust. Christians in Lebanon and Baha'is in Iran have all faced terrible persecution where they came from - why should we do it too?

Our problem is with a small percentage of fanatics - let's identify them and deal with them.

 

[cold dead hands]

white fright

no one talks about this problem. i grew up in a black suburb of denver, co. my friends are black and i am white. did their having firearms scare me? no! was i scared of being mugged or murdered? no!!! wanna know why? they were honest just like me. they felt a need to protect family and property (in the end your loved one's lives are the only posessions you care about). did they suddenly fear a white guy with gun when i and my other white friends were of legal age. NO! this country has gone insane in terms of making skin color a criminal act. when do the rest of you step up and speak for the innocent!?!

 

[Autolycus]

My earlier post on the gun culture has only been my observations. Unlike many who post they just post their stereotypes as fact. That is the main difference.

 

[Brian Dale]

Tecumseh, you wrote above that

When someone in the gun culture supports racist and bigoted rhetoric we all suffer. We then isolate people from our culture. People who don't want to associate with bigots and racists see this as a large part of the gun culture because of the actions of a few.

I agree that there are people who believe that the gun culture is this way. However, in the gun culture that I belong to, and you, and most folks here that I've read, it's the bigots and racists whom we isolate from the culture.

Glad I could clear that up.

captain clay, in case that Oleg's "fire for effect" meant something short of banning, welcome to my Ignore List. You're only the fourth person on it.

 

[PILMAN]

I could care less what race or religion they are as long as they are willing to show proper gun safety. On the other hand if it were an extremeist muslim talking about Jihad or something then I might be a little concerned. I have plenty of friends who are muslim who live a rather secular lifestyle however and being that I can trust them as friends, I could definitely trust them with a firearm, and i'm Jewish.

 

[doubleg]

In my opinion racism is below stupidity. All they wan't is people to help them out. It's hard enough to move to a different country and then have to deal that crap.

 

[buzz_knox]

The way I see it, a real terrorist would try to remain as low-key as possible.

Not necessarily. The 9/11 hijackers were fairly open in their desire to learn how to fly but not how to land.

As with anything, situations have to be judged on their individual merits. A person who wants to learn how to shoot defensively is probably on the up and up, regardless of race, color, creed, etc. A person who inquires as to which weapon would allow for the most damage to the most people in the least time should raise the hackles on one's neck, regardless of race, color, creed, etc.

After all, they could be working for Bloomberg.

 

[spartan20]

A little off topic but...

Im taking a friend to his first gun show, and hes black, have kind of been wondering if thats going to be a problem there.
I honestly cant remember seing a black person at any of the shows Ive been to, plus down here you get alot of the "good ole boys" wearing their mossy oak coveralls and such.
Hopefully Im just being paranoid.

 

[doubleg]

As long as he doesn't show up wearing a fitted hat and Rocca Wear he'll not have to worry about that.

 

[roo_ster]

If they are American citizens, tell them not to worry and get busy learning a skill befitting free men & women. The likelihood that anybody will say anything inappropriate is small. The liklihood that anybody will do anything inappropriate is even smaller. We can't control what folks think, but who cares, as long as they live & let live?

Until bombs start blowing up in the streets in the USA, I think Americans will be quite tolerant of anyone of Middle Eastern descent. You start having bombs blow up with any frequency such as is happening in Iraq these days geared toward killing civilians, all bets are off. I hope this situation does not develop in the US. I like peace and I like to feel safe. Middle Easterners here should try to ensure that this does not happen. I want them to feel safe too. They have this power if they are willing to exercise it.

22rf has it right. It would take some pretty serious incidents in the USA to change America from a place terrifically accomodating to legal immigrants to something else.

It has been my experience that America is quite accomodating to legal immigrants. From dorm-room comradery inciting the recent immigrant from wherever to participate in, ah, sophomoric group behavior...to friends & co-workers egging on the permanent legal resident alien to get her citizenship. This seems to be the rule for most of America. The execption seems to be tightly-knit "ethnic" enclaves. They seem mildly hostile to any not of their kind.

An hilarious example of America's accomodation and tolerance for the outlandish is the movie Borat. I about busted my gut at the arranged dinner with the southron upper crust. Despite planned outrages on the part of the main character, the hostess bends over backwards to make him feel comfortable and explain some bits of American technology, custom, and hygiene. The whole movie was an advertisement for the tolerance americans show the newcomer who doesn't fit in, but is (allegedly) trying to figure us out and how to act in the USA.

If there did develop a domestic terror campaign from muslim immigrants & their communities, the happy, helpful, & tolerant America they find, today, would be less so. This is reasonable and understandable, as American accomodation is not a suicide pact.

Also, were such a campaign to materialize, of course, the muslim communities would be best equipped to have knowledge of the attacks and the perpetrators. As Mao wrote, the guerilla swims in the sea of the population. It is the same way down through history up to & including Iraq. If the muslim communities provide no aid to and finger the bad eggs in their midst, the peans writen toward muslim assimilation and Americanization could wallpaper Grand Central Station. OTOH, if the muslim community aids and coddles the perpetrators, the reaction form the rest of America would not be as positive.

 

[Autolycus]

Originally posted by Doubleg:
As long as he doesn't show up wearing a fitted hat and Rocca Wear he'll not have to worry about that.

Why does their attire matter?

 

[Autolycus]

Originally posted by Jfruser:
The execption seems to be tightly-knit "ethnic" enclaves. They seem mildly hostile to any not of their kind.

Actually the ethnic enclaves were formed because of hostility towards immigrants. They were also some of the only places where non-English speakers could find people who speak their language. Common food items particular to the culture could also be found here as well.

A good example being the Chinese in the west. When they were mistreated and abused by the predominantly white majority they retreated to their ethnic enclave so that they would be free from prejudice and attacks from the majority group.

 

[Titan6]

I think what I find amusing about this is that in nearly every Muslim country there is no such thing as a bill of rights.

You can forget freedom of religion, speech, protections from search and seizure, the whole deal; it does not exist in these countries. Crimes such as adultry and homosexuality are sometimes met with the prison or the death sentence.

Most of the Muslims I have met in this country are a part of the repressive ruling class either as military or students here getting an education. I have only run across a very few that are immigrants that were fleeing an oppresive regime. Travel to the US is very expensive and difficult and therefore normally only those in power can afford it. The lucky few that are trying to escape and actually make are indeed few.

To fruther complicate matters we have the Nation of Islam in the US with various splinter groups which was founded more as a hate based group and which founding had little if anything to do with true Islam. They help give Islam bad name in their actions in the US and confuse a lot of people with their title.

What we are supposed to adhere to (and today US courts support) in the US is all men are equal. Religion is not supposed to matter but we all know for most religious groups it does. The Koran makes it much worse so. It spells out in no uncertain terms that you are supposed to treat different religious groups (and non-believers in any G-d) differently in every part of your life and has discrimination built right into the belief system. There is even a hierarchy in place. (I sometimes amuse myself by showing people where it says that Muslims are supposed to prefer Jews over Chrisitans. This is good for some wide eyed stares...). Many of the strict sects proclaim that for a Muslim to be true to his faith he must discriminate. While I support and defend their right to believe as they wish I don't have to help anyone with this either.

I have strong convictions also namely that all men (and women) are created equal and this frequently puts me at odds with nearly every middle eastern Muslim immigrant that I come across. I don't really wish to help train any person with firearms that sees me as an inferior human. Occasionally I run across a few that have gotten around this in some way. But it is a rarity in my experience.

 

[Oleg Volk]

I can only speak about the four we introduced to guns yesterday. I like having them as neighbors and fellow countrymen. The whole family is very gracious and quite enthusiastic about RKBA. Seeing the 6yo start with a Cricket and go up to a .22 AR upper, the 17yo start with a suppressed .22 bolt rifle and go up to PTR91 and pump shotgun, their traditionally dressed warming up a suppressed P22 next to them and their father trading between an M16 and a camcorder was very gratifying.

 

[Vaarok]

Guns mean a person is capable of being self-reliant and self-determining. Gun people are the group that should best know how reprehensible it is to deny someone their rights on a suppose.

And don't get me started on Team Infidel and similar asinine bigotry. It gives us a bad reputation by association, alienates potential allies, and is just objectionable on principle.

Hooray for responsible people with guns, regardless of creed or color. An armed society is a polite society.

 

[roo_ster]

The execption seems to be tightly-knit "ethnic" enclaves. They seem mildly hostile to any not of their kind.

Actually the ethnic enclaves were formed because of hostility towards immigrants. They were also some of the only places where non-English speakers could find people who speak their language. Common food items particular to the culture could also be found here as well.

A good example being the Chinese in the west. When they were mistreated and abused by the predominantly white majority they retreated to their ethnic enclave so that they would be free from prejudice and attacks from the majority group.

Whatever the reason, today such enclaves are the locus of unwlecome to recent immigrants not of their kind. Also, such enclaves (& their denizens) are less sensitive to contemporary standards of dialog WRT new immigrants and other native ethnic groups.

It is interesting to see, say, a Hindu immigrant American and an inner-city black American interact in a confrontational situation. "Un-PC" does not even begin to describe it.

 

[Autolycus]

Is it any better when a rural white american interacts with a middle eastern immigrant? Or a rural white american interacts with a person of hispanic descent?

"Un-PC" does not even begin to describe it.

 

[MD_Willington]

I have a friend from Persia who was concerned that people find out about her learning to shoot and consider her a terrorist. Today, a person I invited to the range asked if I could get in trouble for teaching a Muslim man to shoot guns.

Seems to me that we should be aware of this concern when talking to those we invite to come shooting with us. Not everyone would voice it directly.

I work with a Persian, a muslim, he's very knowledgeable of the MP5 and G3, conscription will do this for you.

Also the Chinese engineers I work with can utilize an AKM just as well as my Ethiopian co-worker that can operate pretty much any Soviet small arms & command a T55.


Where I work, the people that have had the birth-right "to keep and bare arms" are more apathetic to that right than any foreigner I work with...

I invite any and all law abiding people to shoot I see no problem in that.

Also not everyone hates the USA, a neighbor from Afhganistan, a muslim, says he and his family are sick of all the secular BS, and that the zealots can keep Afghanistan as he does not wish to ever return.

The new bogey-man is "The Terrorist" so many people will identify the stereo type and be afraid, I say you are doing nothing wrong and do not be afraid.

{/ Sound like I'm ranting, rant off

 

[Oleg Volk]

No wonder the daughter did so well: she has a 3rd level black belt in Tae Kwon Do. Martial arts background helps a lot. The entire family will be back to the range with us, and they plan to bring friends. They've been in the US longer than I have, and live a nice blend of their own culture and assimilated lifestyle. I showed this thread to my co-worker and also recommended http://corneredcat.com to him and his wife.

So, how was your weekend?

 

[lance22]

USA - Land of Wimps

A young adult comes here from Morocco to be educated. His professors are all anti-gun and would faint if they thought anyone had a pocket knife. Hetero couples fight against marriage but gay couples demand it. His pasty-white-white roomate is vegetarian and writes 10 angry emails each day to KFC. Everyone he meets is a whining, sobbing pussy.

After graduating, he returns to Morocco with a report. American women are tough and dominant, American men are blubbering weaklings. Nobody is willing to fight for anything and "principle" has been replaced by "compromise". The word "Victim" means the same thing that "Saint" meant 100 years ago.

In his six years on American soil he never meets a single person from the military and so he has no experience with Americans who believe that freedom is a product of sacrifice; instead he is inudated with weak PC college professors who teach that freedom is an entitlement GIVEN to you by the goverment.

A pity that so many foreigners have their only "American" experience while living at University campus's.

 

[Titan6]

I find it amazing that he went to college in America and met no one there on the GI Bill. Was it an expensive or very liberal school? GIs don't normally abide a bunch of BS in their education and can't afford real expensive schools as the GI Bill only pays for up to about $70,000 of college. I went to college where about 2% of the population was there on the GI Bill. Some schools it is as high as 10% or more.

Still if he spent that many years in this country and never met anyone other than weak PC professors and wimpy college students it dosen't seem like he was trying very hard.

 

[MD_Willington]

Funny thing about Universities

I purchased my latest pistol from a female at the local university, she and her fiancée were both avid shooters until the local range was closed.

My child went through a temperament lab at the university, the females working in the AV room, were either shooters or interested in shooting and had gone shooting with friends...

A lot of the males I've met there have no interest. The last time there was a rapist on campus, many females voiced their opinion on being armed and purchasing a pistol for self defence, the Police chief (male) said that the rapist would take the pistol and use it on the females...

 

[Autolycus]

Still waiting for DoubleG to explain his Roca wear comment.

 

[Imaginos]

Sensible Ambassadors

Seems I read a news article on FoxNews.com about a Saudi woman who had been gang raped by 7 men and now faces 90 lashes for being alone with a man she is not related to.

I also listened to the Glen Beck show on talk radio when he had several muslim women on who were talking about the danger they were in for speaking out against radical islam.

Seems to me the way to win this war is to win the hearts and minds of muslim women. If teaching them self-defense is the way to make that conncetion, then let's all take somebody to the range.

 

[kb2iaw]

It`s not so important how they dress or how they look, or even if they speak with an accent
(but what they think /belive ) and you can never get into their minds to know what they say is true...but that goes for anybody ...