Pistol Brace Amnesty

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by SharpDog, Sep 11, 2022.

  1. Mark_Mark
    • Contributing Member

    Mark_Mark Contributing Member

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    “If you are not Paranoid, you’re probably the problem”

    Quote from a Wise man.
     
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  2. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    "Of course I am paranoid. But am I paranoid ENOUGH?"
     
  3. kimberkid

    kimberkid Member

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    That’s what I did the first time around. Since it was reversed I’ve put together a braced 10-22 Charger & 300 blackout.
    This time I’m just going to put a 16” barrel on the 10-22 and replace the tail hook with a stock. On the 300BO, I’ve got other SBR’d receivers I can put it on when I want to shoot it. I’ll hang the upper on the wall and remove the brace from the receiver and do something else with receiver. Maybe give it to my grandson or another friend … or maybe strip it out and use it as a paperweight.

    I’ve decided that at my age, I’ve got enough NFA items that I don’t need anymore … if I was 20 younger I’d do the form1, but to spend $200 for a stamp for a range toy that I’ll likely only get to enjoy for “+ or -“ 10 years, well, I just don’t feel I’d get my money’s worth.
     
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  4. SC45-70

    SC45-70 Member

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    So if you send in your braced pistol picture during the "Amnesty" period.
    You are admitting to having an un registered short barreled rifle "a crime".
    But since it is during an "Amnesty" period you are forgiven of that crime.
    So shouldn't you be allowed to register the SBR without paying the $200.00?

    Asking for a friend
    SC45-70
     
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  5. Mark_Mark
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    Mark_Mark Contributing Member

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    What NOWAY!!! not the F Bee Eye and A F T changing their mind after the fact because Supreme Leader say so. NO!!!! WaY!!!

    lol!!!

    I personally NEVER owned a brace, only shot a few photos of them in a gun shop for giggles and fake clout
     
  6. Pat Riot
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    Pat Riot Contributing Member

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    Amnesty? No!
    Registration? Yes!
     
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  7. Mark_Mark
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    Mark_Mark Contributing Member

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    and remember, lying to them on form or person or phone call is process crime!

    Don’t even say your name without a lawyer.
     
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  8. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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    I vaguely remember one way to "comply" with their new definition was to change out the barrel for a longer one... if a person does that but leaves the brace in place that would kind of be the result, or???
     
  9. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    With a 16" or longer barrel it would just be a rifle with a brace on it. I did just that in Dec 2020 with one of my 10.5" pistols since the craptastic Radical Firearms barrel needed replaced anyways.

    I used a Ballistics Advantage 16" barrel along with a slip over fake suppressor. I built it to mess with all of the "Karens" and range nazis that will tell you it is all illegal.

    FATF build.jpg
     
  10. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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    What is the weight difference between the 16" barrel and the original 10.5" one?
     
  11. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    I didn't weigh them so can't say. I can say that it is heavier with the 16" barrel since there is 5 1/5 more inches of barrel. Plus the fake slip over suppressor adds weight too.
     
  12. badkarmamib

    badkarmamib Member

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    With an 11.5" barrel, you will be over the 26" OAL, which the first section of the proposed rule exempts. So, it would be a pistol, until you add a VFG, in which case it would become a "firearm". At least until the AFT changes it mind, again...
     
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  13. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    The firearm in the photo above was over 26" with the 10.5" barrel AND using an extended Kak Sig Super Brace (in photo).

    Now if you read the prerequisites in Section 1 of the Worksheet 4999, it states the following:

    https://www.atf.gov/file/154866/download

    So as you can see anything over 26" in OAL with a brace is not considered a pistol according to the worksheet. If the pistol is over 26" OAL then you can NOT continue with the worksheet per instructions.

    That being said, Yes you can have a VFG if and only if the firearm is over 26" in OAL and barrel under 16" in OAL without it being an AOW. But with it will be considered a SBR if it has a brace attached.
     
  14. badkarmamib

    badkarmamib Member

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    Sorry if I sounded like I was calling you out about barrel/overall length. I wasn't, just adding another option for anyone reading. But can you clarify this last part? It sounds like you are saying that a "pistol", over 26" OAL, with a brace and VFG, would be an SBR, instead of a "firearm", which, if that is the case, I missed that change.
     
  15. 230RN
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    230RN I keep pushing that pendulum back.

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    <editorial>
    This is all tragically amusing because people's lives and fortunes depend on exquisitely detailed and often conflicting rules and regulations to cope with ongoing cosmetic and technical changes in.... arms.

    Good grief, a worksheet to determine what makes a pistol a rifle or a rifle a pistol with sometimes collapsable and sometimes not, "braces." or as I pointed out, "lanyards."

    Now there's a monkey wrench for them: "only if the lanyard is 36 inches or less in length and weighs less than 5 ounces." (Since that would make it concealable, ha-ha.) And once it's attached, it cannot be removed since that turns it back into a (EEK!) "pistol."

    Reminds me of the worksheets of the Internal Revenue Service.

    Sad and tragically amusing.

    My dummary summary solution is for everyone to obey the highest law of the land, which after boiling debate and stinging argument back and forth in the 1790s, was finally distilled down to the simple: shall not be infringed.

    Why, you ask?

    Why, simply, "in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers."

    That's why.
    </editorial>

    Terry, 230RN

    REF:
    https://drexel.edu/ogcr/resources/constitution/amendments/preamble/
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2022
  16. Demi-human
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    Demi-human maybe likes firearms a little bit…

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    I have often expounded that increased complication only begets corruption, and in the reverse as well.

    If it ain’t simple, someone’s lying.
     
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  17. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    Sorry for any confusion. And I will clarify things for you.

    As of now:
    • You can have a pistol that is over 26" OAL with or without a brace and it is still a pistol.
    • If you install a VFG onto a pistol that is at least 26" in OAL its classification changes. It is no longer a pistol since in is now designed to be fired using two hands and is classified as a "firearm" which is more commonly called "other"
    • If you install a VFG on any pistol less than 26" OAL, then you have created an AOW.
    • If you conceal a "firearm" that is at least 26" OAL it becomes an AOW
    If/when the rule change goes into effect then you will no longer be able to have any pistols that is over 26" in OAL
    • Any thing with an OAL greater than 26.1" will no longer be considered a pistol if it has a brace attached. See the Worksheet 4999 Sect 1 Prerequisites
      • This will. include any AR pistol, Shockwave, Tac13, or anything else currently classified as a "firearm"
    • Since anything with an OAL greater than 26" will no longer meet the definition of a pistol if a brace is attached then the ATF will consider them a SBR if it has a brace.
    • Remove the brace and an AR will continue to be classified as either a pistol (no VFG) or a "firearm" (with VFG) when the OAL is over 26"
    • A Shockwave, Tac 13/14 and similar will still be classified as a "firearm" as long as there is no brace attached them and they are at least 26" OAL
    Here is what Section 1 Prerequisites states on the Worksheet 4999

    https://www.atf.gov/file/154866/download

    Hopefully I have explained things a little more clearly for everyone.

    @badkarmamib I didn't not take it wrong that you were asking for clarification. The rule change is confusing and made to be so that the ATF can still consider a pistol with a brace an unregistered SBR even if it meets all the points. See the top portion of the Worksheet 4999
     
  18. citizenconn

    citizenconn Member

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    So, if they do decide your pistol with a brace is an unregistered SBR, even under the amnesty, will you then be required to pay the $200 tax stamp, since the amnesty was for braced pistols and not SBRs?

    I am feeling this is the trap they are trying to lure braced pistol owners into with this promise of "amnesty," especially since they are requiring pictures of each of the braced pistols instead of just a description or serial number of the lower.

    Something about this whole process seems questionable to me.
     
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  19. Spats McGee

    Spats McGee Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm also bothered by the fact that they're doing this in a way that I don't think it's been done before. Maybe my tinfoil hat is on too tight again, but something doesn't smell right.
     
  20. usaral63

    usaral63 Member

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    12 Bravo: The factoring criteria header specifies RIFLED firearms...............where do you extract the application to the smooth bored guns?
     
  21. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    That question was brought up in other threads on this forum and on other forums as well.

    And this rule change will effect anything with an arm brace attached to include smoothbore "firearms such as the Shockwave and Tac 13/14. And yes some o those were sold new with a brace attached to them.

    I did not bring up the amnesty since we still do not know if this will happen nor do we know exactly what the final ruling will actually be until it is released. All the information I posted is based on the current ATF Worksheet 4999 and the proposed rule change as it is currently posted in the federal registry.

    We will have to wait until the final rule change is posted in December to see how things will work out, this include waiting to see about how the amnesty will work too.
     
  22. citizenconn

    citizenconn Member

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    Well I think the fact that they are requiring us to send in pictures of our braced pistols might put the kibosh on that idea. I would love to do the same thing, but when I saw all the info they were requiring us to provide with our form 1 application, warning bells started clanging for me.

    I am hoping a shift in the political climate after the midterm election might render this a moot point. But I am very wary of providing any info to any federal agency on anything I might or might not own in any particular configuration at this time. Right now any potential braced pistol I may or may not have basically resides in Schrodinger's Box. It might be a braced pistol; it might not be a braced pistol. No one known until they open the box.

    If I sent the ATF pictures of a supposed braced pistol they will make that determination for me and remove all doubt. And even if they decide in my favor right now, it doesn't mean that they won't change their determination in the future. And at that time they will know exactly what I have and where to come get it.
     
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  23. Balrog

    Balrog Member

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    Is there any legal consideration that is not resolved by putting a 16" barrel upper on the gun ? It just becomes a rifle at that point, and you can put whatever stock you want on it, right?
     
  24. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    I could do that, I’ve done more work than changing a tube out on an AR, for $200.

    The rest shouldn’t be any different than when I SBR a rifle, as far as the Form 1/requirements. They would just be saving you the fee or are they wanting everyone to pony up the $200 too?
     
  25. citizenconn

    citizenconn Member

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    That is the big question. If they do grant the amnesty, waive the $200 fee, and approve the form 1 on the braced pistol, will it only be good with that brace and not with a regular stock? Otherwise why are they asking for the pictures when they could just confirm the firearm with the serial number? I don't think anyone knows at this point.

    There is speculation that they will use the pictures to grade the braced pistols against their worksheet and if it doesn't pass they will say it doesn't meet the requirements of the amnesty and either require one to destroy it, pay the $200 tax stamp, or in the most extreme possibility, prosecute one with possessing an unregistered SBR.
     
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