Please help! Good guy arrested in Ohio

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AZRickD

Watch out or WildAlaska will wish you into the cornfield -- by putting you on his ignore list -- like he did me. He can't take the heat of getting scolded for some of the absolute tripe he posts here.
 
I'm sure that Jeffrey Jordan AKA "Hunter" is a great guy and I wish him the best of luck in jury selection. However, the fact is he willingly (ignorance of the law in the case of an activist is a tough sell) violated the law and was caught in a routine traffic stop. This was not a case of CD, it was a case of getting caught. He knew the rules, he broke the law in Ohio and he will now live with that decision. Hope for a procedural error on the part of LE, but don't count on it. That said, I hope he prevails.
 
This my last reply because this has become silly and I'm sure boring for everyone else. Any way:

I ask you to find the NRA quote and you come back with this?
You didn't read my reply; let me try again: THERE WAS NO NRA QUOTE, THIS WAS MY IMPRESSION AT THE TIME. My point is that if it was my perception, it could have been someone else's and certainly now, today I run across this NRA is anti-government argument all the time.

I'm not going to let you get off so easy. You label some (which?) argument a "gun nut argument" and then fail to say what it is and why it is wrong.
You lost me with this one but GUN NUT = Person who thinks they need their guns to overthrow the US Government. This person is considered unreasonable by the majority of people and from my perspective is also most likely clinically paranoid.

This "gun nut" argument will not help the RKBA cause. If embraced openly, it will sink it. Most people, myself included believe in this country - problems? yes, but the best there is.

Re Rude - it's typically never good. Try be nicer, you'll find that people may stop and listen to you for a moment.

But the Constitution was written then too. The Declaration of Independence was written then too, and is cited in Supreme Court cases. You can't dismiss it. The right to self defense does not end because 200 years have passed. Yours is another Brady Center argument. Congrats.
All of those documents were crafted to be LIVING DOCUMENTS which is the reason why they withstood and hopefully will withstand the test of time. I'm not saying they are invalid - exactly the opposite. But they can be changed! And we don't want the second amendment to become the Right to Keep and Bear Slingshots . . . . think about a more reasonable approach.

The permit system says the government, with a vote of the legislature, has the Power, to disarm its populace. It also registers hundreds of thousands of people as gun owners. Bad.
Not sure that this is true but if that happens in our lifetime, then I guess we'll be standing shoulder to shoulder then eh? That is, if I had any guns, which I don't. ;)

When I was in Ohio last August, the mass of people were driving between 75 and 85 mph on I270 and SR33. The police could pull them over for speeding, or pull them over for not flowing with traffic. Your choice.
You should stay away from the "evil police" arguments. Immature. Like being mad at the credit card companies for charging interest. Cops are people like everyone else, paying a mortgage, saving for kids college. They have bad apples, so does every other profession. Most cops are good people just making a living.

Why is it a good thing in big cities and not a good thing for Vermont and Alaska? Do criminals in big cities decide not to carry guns because they can't get a permit?
I guess I'd like to know that a Psycho can't just go into Walmart and pick up a gun. Don't like the registration part, it should be a check on the persons record and then the request and any evidence of the transaction should be destroyed.

But it is reasonable to make sure that people who shouldn't have guns can't just walk into a store and buy one.
 
Another Update:

Claire Wolfe has offered the use of her e-Gold account for donations. If anyone would like to donate via e-Gold, the account number to use is 106974 (be sure to note that it's for Hunter's defense).

Thanks!
 
Your "impression?" No NRA quote? Then from where did you derive your anti-NRA opinion a decade ago?
GUN NUT = Person who thinks they need their guns to overthrow the US Government...most likely clinically paranoid.
That would be James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, Patrick Henry, Richard Henry Lee, Samual Adams, Paul Revere, etc. My guess is you've not paid close attention to the Federalist Papers or the Federal Farmer. Better eat some roughage before you do.
Re Rude - it's typically never good. Try be nicer, you'll find that people may stop and listen to you for a moment.
You haven't a clue. Being rude is what makes me successful as an activist. It makes the others seem more moderate. "Hey, Mayor Scruggs, better go with what the GOA says, cuz we can't get Rick to stop leafleting your neighborhood." My guess is you've never gotten so much as a splinter carrying a protest sign as armed police look on.
All of those documents were crafted to be LIVING DOCUMENTS
GASSSSP!! What utter nonsense. They either mean what they say or not. If they are subject to the slow-motion anarchy of Judicial Activism, are any of our rights safe? Tell me, is the 13th Amendment (end of slavery for those not following along) not absolute? Is that a living document as well? What might that mean in 100 years? Does Article V of the Constitution mean nothing to you? Does the phrase "inalienable rights" mean anything to you?
They have bad apples, so does every other profession. Most cops are good people just making a living.
Other professions do not have guns, badges and the acceptance of the local prosecutor. To compare them is nonsense. You've never been held at gunpoint for lawfully carrying a gun, I take it? I have... right here in Arizona.
But it is reasonable to make sure that people who shouldn't have guns can't just walk into a store and buy one.
Do you actually read the other threads here at THR? IF you did, you would already know that there have been no criminologists able to show that any of our gun laws reduce crime (Wright & Rossi, Cook & Ludwig, CDC, etc). If people are dangerous, keep them in jail. I suppose you would also require that newspaper sales be banned. How about sales to friends and family? Do they require a Brady check too? Jacobs & Potter as well as Cook & Ludwig could find no reduction in crime from the Brady Law. Crooks still get guns. Even in England, which is a friggin' island with strict gun control laws. The only people who are disarmed are the good guys.

As for this thread, you have two options. Support Hunter with your $$$ or not. We will all judge you for your actions.

Let's all have a show of hands of those who will not be sending at least $1 to Hunter. $5? $10 $15 $20?

Rick
 
This has to be one of the best threads I have read here recently when it comes to seeing how some folks really feel about the rkba.

I will scrape some change together and get a money order and mail it tomorrow since I feel for anyone who is in ohio and gets in trouble while carrying a weapon. I sort of feel responsable for out of staters who did not know what they were getting into. I do not want that to sound like I think he is innocent, I just feel he did not fully comprehend the silliness of how police folks enforce stupid laws in this state.

I do feel some of the statements made about how to deal with police were a tad strong. However, I also feel that someone simply doing things because it is their job should not be in a position of power because they are not being a responsable person.

Police often use their discretion when pulling someone over, how many folks have been pulled over and then allowed to go on their way without a ticket?

In my opinion the discretion is where thinking comes in.

It is sad to see folks who enjoy owning firearms wind up on both sides of the fence. But then again many governments enjoyed owning firearms when their subjects did not enjoy that right.

Many wish to own firearms. Only some have them for the proper reason.
 
Strawman argument, as well as not applicable. This case involves the second amendment, not the first.

I could care less about amendments, my rights do not come from them nor any other piece of paper. I'm talking about basic human rights here and it applies whether one is on their knees praying or if they are walkind down the street with a chunk of metal (gun) on their person or if they are publishing their thoughts.

All are actions that impose neither obligation or harm on any other person. For someone, either govt bureaucrat or regular person, to take action against someone for those activities is an uncondonable act of aggression. You, either or your own nor through whatever petty bureaucrat you've hired, have any business telling me that I may or may not carry a gun. If I'm not inflicting some harm or imposing some type of obligation on you, leave me alone.
 
OK you've baited me in one last time but only because biere thinks we're entertaining. I live to be entertaining. :D

Here we go:

Your "impression?" No NRA quote? Then from where did you derive your anti-NRA opinion a decade ago?
Don't remember. Also possible that I'm not the man I was 10 years ago so may be more me or more them, who knows. Accept it as a data point and move on. That means that if I thought it, others might and I'm telling you others do TODAY. If the vast majority thinks the NRA is a bunch of gun nuts then the anti's win. RKBAers loose. We need to change that image and make sure the NRA holds true to it as well.

That would be James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, Patrick Henry, Richard Henry Lee, Samual Adams, Paul Revere, etc. My guess is you've not paid close attention to the Federalist Papers or the Federal Farmer. Better eat some roughage before you do.
OK we were fighting the Brits back then no? Yeah ok they were the "Government" but they're not THIS Government today, in this time. Gun nut definition stands - no personal insult intended of course. If you think you’re going to be shooting at the US Army anytime soon, or gunning down the local Sheriff (who you probably went to school with, or coached in Little League) THEN YOU ARE A GUN NUT. A bad thing in general and specifically for the RKBA movement.

You haven't a clue. Being rude is what makes me successful as an activist. It makes the others seem more moderate. "Hey, Mayor Scruggs, better go with what the GOA says, cuz we can't get Rick to stop leafleting your neighborhood." My guess is you've never gotten so much as a splinter carrying a protest sign as armed police look on.
Do you make a living as an activist? Because if so, I can't compare professional resumes with you. If not and you are as active as you say, then that has to mean that you don't have a wife, or kids or if you do, you don't spend much time with them. Everyone makes choices - yours is just as valid as mine, and my choice is to live my life based on the things I consider important. Like family.

GASSSSP!! What utter nonsense. They either mean what they say or not.
Wow, a BLACK and WHITE guy. How basic. I am certainly no historian, but I know the reason why these documents survive today is the fact that they are living, that means they can be AMENDED. That's not nonsense; it's what our system of Government is based on. For someone who proclaims to be a (rude) activist, seems like this basic fact is missing from your knowledge base. Curious. Makes me think you are just a troll after all.

Other professions do not have guns, badges and the acceptance of the local prosecutor. To compare them is nonsense. You've never been held at gunpoint for lawfully carrying a gun, I take it? I have... right here in Arizona.
Too easy. Guns and badges represent things that can do harm to others if misused. Let's see, what other professions does that apply to? Doctors. Bus Drivers. Airplane Pilots. Nuclear Reactor Engineers. Lawyers.

Do I have to go on? Practically EVERYONE. Hell, if the guy in McDonalds doesn't throw away the old meat he qualifies too when he kills ten kids with e-coli. You can do better than that, convinces me all the more that you're not for real.

Although based on those two points I have concluded that you are a Troll and I am tempted to resort to some base humor but I'll finish seriously:

Do you actually read the other threads here at THR? IF you did, you would already know that there have been no criminologists able to show that any of our gun laws reduce crime (Wright & Rossi, Cook & Ludwig, CDC, etc). If people are dangerous, keep them in jail. I suppose you would also require that newspaper sales be banned. How about sales to friends and family? Do they require a Brady check too? Jacobs & Potter as well as Cook & Ludwig could find no reduction in crime from the Brady Law. Crooks still get guns. Even in England, which is a friggin' island with strict gun control laws. The only people who are disarmed are the good guys.

I have both of Professor Lott's books and have read them cover to cover. Had you done so you'd realize your conclusion is wrong or at least unsubstantiated.

Lott demonstrated (quite well I might add) that enactment of CCW laws i.e. allowing law abiding citizens to obtain and carry firearms for self defense, REDUCES CRIME.

Even the CDC which had no business doing any studies on guns came to a complimentary conclusion, that Gun restrictions like the 1994 AWB (don't specifically remember which) do not reduce crime.

Great news for the RKBAers.

Both of these conclusions are DIFFERENT from yours. You are saying that "all gun laws do not reduce crime" so let's do away with all of them.

I do not think that a study to support that particular conclusion has been undertaken by anyone as yet - but again, my common sense says that if ANYONE including criminals, psychos etc can just go to Wal-Mart and buy a gun we would be worse off.

You need to take a walk down a street in DC or Manhattan . . . . the asylum doors have been open for many years, and although many of those folks are harmless and I bear them no ill will, I am happy that they aren’t packing.

I am in favor of record-less background checks to weed out the mentally ill and criminals.

Not sure how I feel about the permitting process. Don't like the idea that the state has a list but I do like the idea that people who want to carry, just like driving a car have to qualifying for a CCW permit.

Maybe the permit, with no gun registration and the instant background check is the most reasonable way to go. They’ll know who has guns, but not how many. Since they can probably figure out who has guns from our Visa statements I don’t think freedom suffers much and the goal is reasonable and achievable as well as marketable to the masses.

Now be a good troll and go to some other board. In the event you're not a troll, I'd recommend that instead of replying, you take some time to brush up on your facts and assemble your arguments so they hold water.

(If you really are an "activist" let me know so I can go bury a gun or something - that RKBS (right to keep and bear slingshots) modification to the 2nd will be along any time now and I want to be prepared.)
 
Ohio is an exemplar, being on the verge of enacting their version of shall-issue CCW

I thought the Ohio supreme court was forcing this enaction through a deadlined ultimatum which the legislature has failed to meet due to attempts to appease the whims of the govenor and his police force. That's exemplar? Sounds like a royal circus to me and if not for this they wouldn't be having protest marches.

I won't be giving 1,2,5,10, or 20 dollars. I've already been in his situation. The crime is being in possession of your own property. It is that simple. My conscience won't allow me give anything less than a couple hundred dollars. Check goes out in the morning.

I've been reading The Hunter's writing. He's good. Some of you should read it too. Maybe you can figure out why some people have the principle to sacrifice for the good of others.
 
Publicola

You are coming dangerously close to WildAlaska putting you on his "ignore list". He doesn't like it when you take him to task for his rants.
 
I've been reading The Hunter's writing. He's good. Some of you should read it too.

Say, that's a good idea, Ryder (and thank you for the donation!). He's archived many of his articles (most from his Sierra Times column) at vader.com, just above the bottom of the page. In addition, I know he recently published an article in Doing Freedom: 50 Ways to Leave Leviathan. If I can dig up a more comprehensive list, I'll post it.
 
OK we were fighting the Brits back then no? Yeah ok they were the "Government" but they're not THIS Government today,
The Framers wrote specifically about this government, today, tomorrow, whenever. They studied history. They knew what could happen.

After the Constitution was drafted, someone asked Ben Franklin what kind of government had been drafted. Franklin responded, "A Republic, madam. If they can keep it."

We didn't keep it.

You question my activism? Do a search on "Rick DeStephens" +gun and see what you get.

More later. Too much subject matter from Highlander not to have some fun.

Rick
 
From Highland Ranger
If you think you’re going to be shooting at the US Army anytime soon, or gunning down the local Sheriff (who you probably went to school with, or coached in Little League) THEN YOU ARE A GUN NUT. A bad thing in general and specifically for the RKBA movement.
Sorry Highland Ranger, but the entire right to keep and bear arms was for the security of a free state. The entire purpose of the RKBA is to overthrow and more importantly to deter a despotic government or individuals from attempting to impose their will on the People. That doesn't mean I want to shoot it out with the army or the local sheriff, but that is technically the reason we keep and bear arms. This might not be popular with middle America or the liberals, but that is what it is. The 2nd Amendment is not about hunting, it is not about the National Guard, and it really isn't about recreational shooting. It is about keeping power centered with the People. Now you might want to argue that hunting and recreational shooting are fine and dandy, but that is not what the 2nd Amendment is about. You might not agree with it and you might think any emphasis placed on this position is a step backward for the 2nd Amendment and that is fine. However, to imply anyone who thinks this is a "gun nut" I believe is misguided and neglects the true purpose and intent of the 2nd Amendment. You might want to follow your own advice, "take some time to brush up on your facts and assemble your arguments so they hold water."

What is my plan for supporting the 2nd Amendment. I am going to teach government and I am going to get young adults to see what the 2nd Amendment is about. I am also going to encourage them to be more liberty minded and remind that that "those who trade liberty for security deserve neither". That way we won't have citizens like Highland Ranger that think that good honest people are "gun nuts".

Back to topic, I will not be sending this guy any money. Mainly because I don't have any he knew the rules and he took the risk. I once did the same thing but I also drove a lot slower too.
 
My pleasure Ian. Thanks for the new link. My favorite so far is "Useful Idiots". Those kookie enablers. What tools! Hard to feel sorry for them.USEFUL IDIOTS

Given my experience with these illegal laws I'd say we haven't seen nothing yet from The Hunter. This is really going to open his eyes and put some lead in his pencil. :D

I've completed reading the thread now. It's a biggie! I'm ok with differing opinons. They can't help but vary. It's a free country. I don't understand why do so many here accuse Ohio of being rabidly anti-gun though :confused: Ohio has open carry and light sentences. In comparison to other places that just isn't my definition of rabid. I sure wouldn't use it in the same breath as places like Chicago, NYC, or NJ.
 
I'll second biere's post re: the quality of this thread. Really is a good filter separating those people who think guns are nice toys and those who think that guns are 'the teeth of liberty'. I'm glad we've got a few Tories on this board just to spice things up. I mean it would get so boring if we all were a bunch of self-congratulatory RKBA supporters. Hunter is a really good guy, one who actually got angry at me for making light of the situation in this country, looks like he was right and I was wrong. Doh. I know I'm going to donate. Just think of it as a kind of 'free-market' insurance system, aka "It could be you in that cop car." Well not WildAlaska, we know he'd never violate a LAW relating to guns. Good for you, may your chains rest lightly.

atek3
loves hate mail
 
Let's face it people. Either you support what the constitution says or you don't. If you want to change it to conform to your personal ideal of how a government should function then don't go trying to sell yourself as a supporter of freedom. The language is clear. The people have the right to own and carry guns. Period. No restrictions, background ckecks, permits, fees. Nothing. This right was, by the admission of the framers, to be preserved not for hunting or personal protection, but because the framers were more afraid of the government that THEY FOUNDED than any criminal or bear overpopulation. Not only do the founders say that citizens have the right to overthrow THIS government if it becomes corrupt, it has been said that we as citizens who love freedom are obligated to do so if it infringes on our freedoms. That is all. Either with or against.

I am really glad that this thread was started. I now know who I can trust when the ???? hits the fan.


-drew
 
I hope the case goes well for him. If I had an ammo budget to give up, I would send him a month's worth.


I sat here and read this entire thread. I am flabberghasted and stupified as to how anyone can not say that 98% of the gunlaws are abhorent to the very nature of the original principles the USA was founded upon. The only people who shouldnt own firearms are violent felons and the mentally ill. Everyone else should be able to carry what ever they damned well please, in any manner they please.

That said, I would find it unsettling to see someone open carrying a loaded AR or Mini-gun in the square. Hopefully if anything like that comes to pass, the people will exercise a little discretionary common sense.:uhoh: Get a violin-case for that Thompson, for Pete's sake.;)
 
Highland Ranger:
Wow, a BLACK and WHITE guy. How basic. I am certainly no historian, but I know the reason why these documents survive today is the fact that they are living, that means they can be AMENDED. That's not nonsense; it's what our system of Government is based on. For someone who proclaims to be a (rude) activist, seems like this basic fact is missing from your knowledge base. Curious. Makes me think you are just a troll after all.
Yes, the U.S. Constitution and state Constitutions can be amended. In the case of the U.S. Constitution it requires a 2/3 majority in Congress and ratification of 2/3 of the state legislatures. It has happened a number of times. Great! That's not a problem. The problem is that the various governments don't bother to amend their constitutions any more. They just go ahead and make blatantly unconstitutional "laws", and the courts usually uphold them.

"Shall not be infringed" is very strong language with an obvious meaning: no gun laws, period, no restrictions whatsoever on possession or carrying of arms. No amendment has ever weakened that language, and many here, I among them, would argue that the Bill of Rights may not be amended; without it the Constitution would never have been ratified, and it highlights basic human rights that may not be denied.

The 18th amendment was ratified in 1919. It prohibited the "manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors." It was repealed in 1933 by the 21st amendment. The Constitution still had meaning in those days. The members of Congress realized that they had no constitutional authority to ban alcoholic beverages, so they amended the Constitution. Congress has no authority to regulate other drugs, either. But they have banned a whole list of "controlled substances" without bothering this time to amend the Constitition. Congress is expressly forbidden to infringe on the right to keep and bear arms. But they have passed bill after bill (I won't call them laws, since, being unconstitutional, they aren't) doing exactly that.

America was created as a constitutional republic. Legislation in the tiny domain in which the Constitution allowed the government to operate, was decided by democratic means, but anything not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution was off limits. No more. We have morphed into a pure representative democracy, guaranteed by the laws of nature to have a short life.

I'll close with a quote I'm sure is familiar to many. This version came from http://blog.lewrockwell.com/lewrw/archives/002541.html :
An observation by the Scottish Historian Professor Alexander Tyler, circa 1787, on the decline and fall of the Athenian Republic.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the world's greatest civilization has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through this sequence. From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance, from abundance to complacency; from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back into bondage."
I would put the U.S. in the "from apathy to dependence" part of this cycle, rapidly falling into bondage. I hope the courageous amongst us can push us back to liberty quickly, but I doubt I'll live to see it.
 
An observation by the Scottish Historian Professor Alexander Tyler, circa 1787, on the decline and fall of the Athenian Republic.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the world's greatest civilization has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through this sequence. From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance, from abundance to complacency; from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back into bondage."

Most feel that we are experiencing the "first" true representative republic with the ebb and flow of freedom as a consequence of experimentation. We are so naive. History does repeat itself. Because of that, this Republic will not endure unless we perform proper hygiene.

I have read this entire thread and have performed additional research concerning this matter. As I see it, there are three camps. The absolutists which demand inalienable rights (absolute), the "reasonable control" folks (compromise), and the confiscators (authoritarian).

The gun is a tool. It serves two purposes for the good citizen: self-defense (a moral right) and a counter-balance to tyranny (a duty to preserve the republic). We started with an absolute right and it has been incrementally infringed. We are not asking for anything new, but just the return of what we lost. Any discussion of gun control should be limited to the technical aspects of hitting your target.

We are a herd of dependent sheeple. Our republic is rapidly decaying from dependence to bondage. Others quote is better, but there are studies that show indentured servants paid less in taxes that do the productive now. Moroever, 50% of the sheeple no longer pay federal income tax. This is a two-fold problem in that the non-productive are rewarded and the legislators assume more power more quickly. This scenario can be expanded to all types of isses. The tyranny of the majority is happenning during our watch. The "compromisers" have been drawn in to the "progressive" thinkers camp which supports the erosion of absolute rights.

There will be no big-bang for the announcement of bondage. It will be incrementally applied just like gun control, or limitations on free speech/assembly, or tax code/welfare. For all I know, we are there, or we may be at a tipping point, or there may yet be a way to turn it back using the system. Far greater minds than mine have divined the information, studied it, and developed conclusions.

I always fear adopting the "chicken-little" approach. But I fear tyranny more. If we are moving to tyranny/bondage, and I think we are, based on the evidence, then we must be prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice for the Republic and for our children.
 
Best of luck to all efforts at Hunter's defense. I'll try 'n send a few bucks to his fund soon.
 
Bill St. Clair

Yes, the U.S. Constitution and state Constitutions can be amended. In the case of the U.S. Constitution it requires a 2/3 majority in Congress and ratification of 2/3 of the state legislatures.
Not accurate. For the edification of all ...

Article. V.

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.
 
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