Pregnant couple attacked by 5 girls on bus

[bkjeffrey]

Oooohhhhhh MY GOD! That video pissed me off! Soon as the first girl took the Ipod I would have had her in an arm-bar and retrieved my wife's stolen property. That act alone may have been enough to let them know you werent the one to mess with. If they persisted its nuckle sandwiches free to all. I bet as soon as you handed a broken nose to the first girl that got tuff her little friends would be too worried about tending to her to fight back.

If I go to jail at least I go with my pride and my wife goes to bed at night listening to her iPod, knowing that her husband is not a punk and her unborn child is safe!

 

[Odd Job]

Another option is that the guy could have taken his girlfriend to the front of the bus, they then have the option to get off or have the driver assist.

 

[AStone]

I'm not sure the driver was conscious.

 

[Tomcat47]

I would have tried to avoid the fight if possible! The bus was a mobile peoblem and as stated the guy done right by shielding his girlfriend!

But when that B!@%$* kicked him in the head......I would have Broken her F!@%*!* nose and looked for another one and another one and another one!
It was at that point it was a SD situation...flight was not an option! It needed to be discouraged through pain! I would have told my girl to go to the driver fast, and I would have opened up!

This is BS to the greatest degree! It reminds of a story on the cornered cat...
In regards to where society has degraded us to.....we have less will to live than a mouse anymore! Even when a little field mouse is cornered he will growl and fight back with all he has to live!

We have made our attackers aware that they are not going to worry about the victim fighting back. We will just take our licks, give up our possessions and walk away with head hung low.

No this was not a situation for a gun! I too am not for hitting women! (they were not women) He was a gentleman of sorts protecting his girl, but I think he could have took them...all of them.....And another thing that P!@@ED me off NOBODY even helped (even go tell the guy to stop the bus) but i say his video camera was showing him the whole thing!

 

[deadhawg]

While I am absolutely against the abuse of women, defending yourself and/or another from a violent person who happens to be female is not abuse. A crowded bus is no place to use a gun, but in that situation I would not hesitate to use whatever force needed to protect myself and my girlfriend. Those girls needed to be taught a lesson. A few fat lips and broken noses might keep them from trying that again.

 

[bkjeffrey]

While I am absolutely against the abuse of women, defending yourself and/or another from a violent person who happens to be female is not abuse

Agreed

The second the attackers struck the female it became a "life or death" situation, not a "self defense" situation. Remember, the female victim was pregnant.

in that situation I would not hesitate to use whatever force needed to protect myself and my girlfriend

Also, in my book, the second those black female teenagers grabbed the Ipod they became CRIMINALS, not young girls. THEY made the conscious decision to break the law and place themselves at the mercy of a defensive father fighting for the life of his unborn child.

 

[LAK]

My theory over the story the the guy allegedly stole an ipod from one of the girls is that it probably didn't happen. His demeanor does not betray any signs nor his continued proximity, reactions, gestures etc. And it is just the sort of "counter claim" that a group of punks will raise when they have the numbers in "witnesses" department.

The girls in this case have the demeanor of young punks who are uncultured, get no discipline at home, and none at school. They are only deterred when there is an on the spot consequence for their actions.

------------------------------

Je Suis Prest

 

[killchain]

In Washington State you are protected under the law to defend yourself or anyone who is having a violent felony committed upon them, and this includes using lethal force to do so. These girls were committing Assault in the second degree, a Class A felony.

(For the moderators, I am just pointing out the law. I am not advocating anyone be harmed.)

Now, for RCW's...

Assault in the second degree, see cite b... the one about harming the unborn child by harming the mother:

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.36.021

That is a class A felony.

Justifiable Homicide, see cite C section 1, the section on being able to use deadly force to stop a violent felony:

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.040

So according to Washington State law, the father would be completely justified in using whatever force he felt necessary to protect his child. Heck, if any one of us were on the bus we would be protected to aid them.

This should answer the "If I pulled a gun I'd be in so much trouble" naysayers. Furthermore, carrying of pistols for defense is allowed on the metro buses of Seattle.

Now for my opinion... haha...

I would like to ask all of the "I'm a big guy and if I fought back I would take all of those girls down" guys this question...

Have you ever fought five people at once?

No, you haven't. You would lose, it doesn't matter what size you are. You have two hands and feet, they have ten of each. Neo from the Matrix couldn't stop all those limbs.

 

[macadore]

Have you ever fought five people at once?

No, you haven't. You would lose, it doesn't matter what size you are. You have two hands and feet, they have ten of each. Neo from the Matrix couldn't stop all those limbs.

You have led a very sheltered life. Watch the video again. The boyfriend had several opportunities to break jaws and noses, but he didn't even try. There are a lot of people in this world who would have sent those women to the emergency room.

 

[Evergreen]

Have you ever fought five people at once?

No, you haven't. You would lose, it doesn't matter what size you are. You have two hands and feet, they have ten of each. Neo from the Matrix couldn't stop all those limbs.

I think 5 girls against one strong guy would be a fair fight. Remember, you break one of their noses or jaws, the others may lose heart. However, I think a guy with decent strength/stature can easily pulverize the girls in this video. I saw a video of two trained female boxers getting floored very quick by one middle-weight male boxer. Assuming, these girls are not trained fighters, martial-artists or have some unreal isometric strength, I would say you can give them more than a run for their money.

BTW.. I was battered with fists for 10-15 minutes and still was conscious, just bloodied up and bruised. I was not nearly as strong as I am now. THis was over 10 years ago. The guy who beat me was a good fighter and strong. If I could withstand that many blows back then, looking at the girls on the video, I think it would be way easier.

Ok.. maybe all this sounds overly macho and silly .. I'm just making an assessment of the situation. If you notice the kid got beat on by the girls and didn't even fight back. Just imagine if he clocked one of the girls in the nose what could have happened.

May main fear of engaging in a fight is that a weapon can be pulled. With so many people one can stick you from the back or easily shoot you. I think a fight is a last resort, but not much of a choice in this situation.

 

[Ole Coot]

I learned back in the mid '60s that people of both sexes and ages are friend or foe depending on the situation. I treat all attackers the same and let things sort out later. Simply put don't even think about my family, friends or myself I can still be your worst nightmare with anything or nothing as a weapon.

 

[Zoogster]

It also can quickly cease to be just girls attacking once a man gets involved, or the female thug steps back and pulls a gun or knife.


Having dealt with a lot of gang members over the years I know many that will let their "homegirls" deal with problems they start, but if a male stands up to them they jump in on their side.
Assuming it will remain just female attackers and one of their boyfriends, brothers, or fellow male gang members won't jump in and attack as soon as a guy gets involved is just that, assuming. They may be watching and then violently get involved as soon as a man stands up to them.


A lot of gang members in general will also sit back while their fellow gang member is prevailing harassing or attacking someone. However if the victim starts to successfully defend themselves or gain an upper hand they quickly jump in to assist in attacking the victim.


This does not mean one should not defend themselves or a loved one, but such situations often progress into more than they appear. Assuming that punching some girl causing trouble won't get you clobbered from behind by the guy you didn't even see who was calmly watching prior is often unwise.

 

[CorpITGuy]

Three things:

1- I've seen it claimed that the victim himself was actually the aggressor; I haven't seen anything in writing that proves this to be the case. So for now, I will assume his girlfriend's iPod was stolen by the girls, as the story reads.

2- All this crap about a "fair fight" is talk from wealthy suburbanites or country folk who have never been in a real fight. There's no_such_frigging_thing as a FAIR fight, especially in the city. The man had a tactical advantage: a narrow channel of attack. Were it not for that, his life would have been in danger. Were the same girls to attack my wife and me on a public street, whether she is pregnant or not, our lives are in danger. I will meet their potentially deadly assault with a drawn handgun. Period.

3- As others have mentioned, a knife would have been nice here. Pepper spray, or at least the normal kind, would have been a tremendously BAD idea.

 

[hso]

Lots of bluster, but not a lot of valuable lessons learned being discussed here.

People should not carry highly portable valuables out in the open with no regard to personal security. Phones, iPods, etc. should be kept out of sight and easy reach. Don't be an attractive target. The only evidence of an iPhone should have been the ear buds and the cord snaking up out of the collar of the jacket.

Keep anything of value in your front pants pockets or inside under cover garments. Keeping valuables in pockets that are easy to access, like the young man's hoody pockets or the girl carrying the device outside an inner jacket pocket, makes it easier for thieves to dip into. In addition to keeping valuables hidden from sight, keep them inaccessible. Don't be an easy target.

If a confrontation looks to be coming your way follow some simple rules instead of just letting it roll up on you.

Don't turn your back on groups of people that you suspect of ill will towards you. Don't let someone get you to turn your back to their allies/accomplices. This is a common gang tactic that puts you at an even greater disadvantage.

Don't stay engaged with a group of people with ill will towards you. Detach and escape or at least withdraw to a better defensive position. Staying where you are partially surrounded and where you are giving advantages for attack to others (letting the one thug have the advantage of using the hang straps and seat to launch kicks) is poor tactics. He should have moved the GF back towards the driver so the thugs would have been channeled in the aisle and forced to crawl over other passengers to get to either side of him. This also would have helped get the attention of the driver.

The only people that knew the girl was pregnant was her and her boyfriend. There's nothing obvious about her appearance that alerts the thugs that she is. That means the BF may have more reason to protect her, but it doesn't mean that the thugs have any reason to give her especial status. It would have probably made no difference.

If you're in a situation similar to this you should withdraw to a safer location (probably the driver) or at least take a better defensive position detached from the gang where they can't easily flank you, yell for someone to call the cops and for the driver to get the cops on the bus to sort the truth out, bracing so you can use your legs to kick while standing.

 

[AStone]

^ Yup. My thoughts exactly.

I've watched that film several times. Just cannot understand why the guy kept standing there taking punches and kicks to the back of his body and head, and repeatedly turning his back to them.

 

[Mad Chemist]

Five on one is not as dire as it seems when you have a the aisle of the bus to use as a choke point.

If it were my wife, I would have focused on the nearest attacker that I could reach. Would have smashed that one with as much violence as I could muster until she stopped fighting. If the rest of them weren't trying to get away by then, then onto the next one.

The boyfriend was too fixated on the ipod at the beginning of the assault. As soon as they start hitting his girl he should have dropped it and started pounding them. It's just a gadget, they're replaceable.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by killchain: So according to Washington State law, the father would be completely justified in using whatever force he felt necessary to protect his child.

Not exactly. What one might "feel" to be necessary is subjective, and if that were the standard, there would effectively be no prohibition on homicide occurring in the case of any argument, scuffle, or melee. It is incumbent upon an actor who has threatened or used deadly force to present some evidence to the effect that he reasonably believed that his action had been immediately necessary.

No, those words are not contained in the text of the statute on justifiable homicide in Washington State. They are, however, contained in other parts of the legal mosaic. Relying on a lay interpretation of a single statute to justify an act that would normally be unlawful without taking into account other relevant statures and case law is usually a dangerous gambit. A better way to look at things is to realize that if you have already gotten into a dangerous situation, the use of deadly force is called for only if there is no other alternative. Of course, even then, it will be up to the actor to provide evidence that such force had been necessary, and the state may provide evidence that contradicts the actor's account of the incident.

By the way, the section of the code for which you provided the link applies to a public officer or peace officer, or someone assisting a peace officer.

It will benefit no one to discuss what the authorities might have determined had things gone a different way. The best content so far in this string has been the contribution by hso, in which he gives advise on how not to be an attractive target, and on how to get out of such a situation should things take a turn for the worse.

 

[Tomcat47]

To Add to my first post, none of us truly know what would have happened in the given situation if it were us. It was not us! But It has definately made me think of what if it were me and my wife?

With that said...I still hold to the fact it would have escalated into a SD situation if it had involved me and my wife.

In watching this video, I could see the trouble getting on the bus before it ever started! And First and foremost my back would not have been to the door to begin with! (my wife would attest to that).

They were if not attached to a gang in reality, they had that tough ass demeanor and gang attachment even getting on the bus and you can see the girl pick out the pregnant girl immediately in the video!

She picked her out as not a weak victim, but as she had something she thought she did not deserve and had back up to take it from her, and as stated above, witnesses to back her up as need be. alone she would have never looked at the ipod!

I also stated that as in training of years ago that we should avoid conflict as best possible....here were the rules of engagement per se:

And whether one or multiple attackers ..the rules apply!

1) Avoid if at all possible - Talk your way out,Walk your way out, run out if possible!
(The bus was moving-The Girls NOT listening, And the attacking,would have put me to rule 2)

2) Discourage Through Pain - Does not have to involve all 5 aggressors but can! If this does not slow or stop aggression, or moves to weapons! knives,guns,male gang members...move to rule 3.

3) End Aggression as necessary!

For the guy that thinks 5 against 1 can be odds that can not be overcome, might I suggest a self defense course! And NOT one that teaches you how to earn points for contact....one that teaches you how to survive multiple attackers and more important how to be prepared if you are put in the situation.

And May I Agree ...HSO has common sense! He has prepared himself with logical decisions! Ahead of time!

When Time For Action Has Come......Time For Preparation Has Passed! Abe Lincoln and Instuctor of years gone by! Thanks!

 

[hso]

Just cannot understand why the guy kept standing there taking punches and kicks to the back of his body and head, and repeatedly turning his back to them.

He's trying to control his GF. If she wasn't part of the problem he wouldn't have tried to block her access to the others.

 

[AStone]

I understand that part, Hso.

But he spent way too much time with his back to them. After being hit/kicked even once, he should have physically herded said gf towards the front of the bus. Clearly he had enough strength to do that, and could have done so w/ enough force to make it happen without hurting her.

 

[Bullet]

hso

Lots of bluster, but not a lot of valuable lessons learned being discussed here.

The lesson learned might be don't ride a bus. At least not the buses in my town. They only run through the hood where this kind of ride is to be expected.:banghead:

 

[longsman]

I just watched that video, and it was really nasty situation. Some people say that it was the boyfriend who stole the iPod from one of 5 black girls. So, it would be girls defending themselves against himself. Apart from that he did a good job of creating some distance between himself and attackers. I am definitely pro-guns, but lets keep in mind that use of force must be kept in proportion to the threat. He could have easily knocked out few of these girls if he just used his own strength. It would be really horrible if one of these 5 attacking girls had to pay with her life for just a bit of trivial jostling.

 

[Hunter72]

I saw this video on tv and lets just say those girls weren't very lady like. They were more like a pack of wolves who picked out a weak target and then moved in for an attack.

Maybe It's my Jersey roots but I have no problem hitting a girl/woman. If someone attacked my wife, pregnant or not, the end result would be either me or them leave in a body bag.

A woman rear ended my Jeep one time. I got out and saw no damage to my vehicle but the front of her car was crushed so I asked if she wanted to just forget it or call the police. She replied nastily with " you better believe I want to call the %&$! cops", so I just turned and got back in my vehicle. While on the phone with the PD I hear a loud bang at the back of my vehicle, the chick is trying to bust my tail lights with a gallon bottle of antifreeze. I got out and as I walked back to her yelled " you swing that again I'll knock you the $%&! out" and she made the mistake of swinging it at me. I then punched her in the face. The cops came and she was arrested for assaulting me, assaulting a LEO, and resisting arrest. (P.S> she was 8 months pregnant) The other charges were from her pushing one of the cops (who she also called a pig) who was telling her to stop yelling at me so he could get her side of the story.
I'm not trying to brag, rather make a point that when it comes to self defense or defending your family age, race, sex, religion, shouldn't be a factor. The only thing that matters is stopping the threat.

I noticed one post mentioned they lost bus passes for a year???
You forgot the robbery charges, and assualt charges.
How about a tresspass so they can never ride a bus again?

 

[Bonesinium]

I think the boyfriend actually handled this about as well as anyone could expect under the circumstances. He remained cool and tried to defuse the situation at the same time as separating his pregnant girlfriend from the others. He was hoping to avoid further conflict, and you can't blame him. Hitting one back would just escalate the situation and could end up worse. At first, yes, he was taking some hits, but it wasn't that bad. However, after they all started attacking towards the end, I would have knocked them out (well, I would have tried). Even if I were just another passenger and saw somebody trying to beat up an non-instigating pregnant girl I'd probably step in.

This whole thing really sickens me. I honestly hope these girls mess with the wrong people at the wrong time and all end up in jail.

 

[lloveless]

In this situation pulling a gun/OC wouldn't be good. Too much collateral damage possible. On the other hand effective use of elbow and fist or an electronic stun device would suffice. IMO the girls should also be prosecuted for assault and battery. I was also blown away by the lack of involvement of older male adults who could have forced decorum.
ll