Pulling a gun on a unarmed assailant?

[caribou]

I had a similar confrontation once.

I once awoke to the sound of my snowgo being started at -30 or so.

I went out in a robe and boots with my 9mm, and found a neighbor kid really gunning the poppin' motor in an effort to leave, but the track, belt and such were still frozen solid.This was no small kid, but a 19 year old intoxicated dog mushing, wood chopping, water hauling young man, and not lacking for strength...

He saw me comming and put up his fists to fight, while still sitting on my snowgo, saying "You cant shoot me *&^%$#.........." as I turned the pistol in my hand and split his mouth to his nostril.......a loaded Browning Hi-Power aint light or made of Poly...and he was suddenly looking crosseyed and sitting on the ground.....and he left.


A while later an Alaska State Trooper called me, as the use of the gun was reported by the ladys stitching the morons lip at the clinic, and asked if I 'used a gun on my neighbor', so I explained myself.....he retorted "The guy said you were loaning him your ride" to which I answered "At 4 am? Nope , sorry, thats BS...." To which he answered; "Thats my thought as well, good night ....." and hung up.

I knew there was no reason to shoot, at least at the time, but getting into a fairfight would not have been a better option, either.

Thats my one and only "Saved by gun in my hand" experience.

Jim in Anch, I would hope that the lady that had someone broke into her apt would be checked on and OK. Do the Tenets there carry or at least have home protection firearms? If I lived in or owned a building, I would at least get with the neighbors and talk with them about self defence/use in a building where other are on the other side of the wall, #12 shot in a shotgun, or running .38 SW in a .357 etc...lower, less penetrating rounds.....or some friendly advice about being aware of others. We actually discuss those things here in our village, as we all live close, in scenario talks about active shooters and such at planning meetings.

 

[DMK]

One thing I remember from my CCW class was Means, Intent and Opportunity of deadly threat.

I guy with a baseball bat yelling I'm going to kill you from the other side of a vehicle or fence has demonstrated the Intent and Means, but not the Ability since he can't reach you with his weapon. He could turn around and walk away ending the threat. Once he comes around that vehicle or fence, then he has all three.

A guy with empty hands saying "I'm going to kill you" at bad breath distance has shown Intent and Oppportunity but it's hard to prove Means without a deadly weapon, unless he gets his hands around your throat.

It might even be argued that a guy open carrying a handgun and standing 10 feet from you has Means and Opportunity, but does not demonstrate any Intent. Many hoplophobes would say that they were in fear for their life with this last guy even if he's just standing there minding his own business.

 

[DMK]

One thing I can say about this incident though. I will never scoff again at people that say they always carry when ever they can.
I leaned that threats can pop up at times and places you would never expect.

That's a good lesson learned.

Some will say that's paranoid thinking. Others will say it's good preparedness.

I'd choose "have it and not need it" over "need it and not have it" every single time. Hopefully, it will always be the former.

 

[Sam1911]

Well, I have studied Washington's laws and OC spray is legal to carry and there are no restrictions, ...

I would, of course, have restraint even using pepper spray,

I wasn't asking you if you knew whether it was lawful to carry.

I was asking if you know what the terms of your state law are that would forgive its use on another person.

Just as there are specific terms in the law that will say what kind of circumstances can justify a person using lethal force on another, there are specific terms in the law that will say what circumstances could justify a person using non- or less-lethal force on someone as well. These may be specific to OC or might cover a whole range of force, less than lethal force. All will probably would fall under "Assault" or your state's equivalent.

OC spray is a wonderful alternative to lethal force, when appropriate, but the legal threshold for justifying its use isn't a WHOLE lot lower than that for lethal force. It isn't just "go away" juice or "leave me alone" spice. It is using FORCE, aka assaulting another person, to make them comply with what you want. (In this case, to be not injured or killed.)

So, the attacker still has to have the ability and opportunity (a.k.a. "means, motive, and opportunity) to put you in jeopardy. It just might not be specifically LETHAL jeopardy in that case.

Can't spray someone for threats, can't spray someone for getting too close, or exhibiting really bad, aggressive behavior -- unless that bad behavior rises to a certain level of risk of serious injury -- or whatever the specific terms of your state law say.

Do you know?

 

[DMK]

It's not just the legal system you have to worry about.

When you draw your gun, you have shown that you have the ability and the opportunity to cause someone death or serious bodily harm. And you most certainly have put someone in jeopardy.

Think about that. What it means is that unless the other person has actually been involved in the commission of a violent crime, or unless he had instigated a confrontation, you have provided to that person the legal justification to employ deadly force against you in self defense.

Keep in mind that he probably thinks that his halo is as shiny as the one you believe to be above your head.

This is worth quoting for emphasis.

What is described here could be referred to as escalation.

Let's say the guy initially intend to be loud, threatening and give you a scare. You feel threatened, so you draw your gun just to "scare him off". Now he's scared, so he draws his gun in self defense. At that point someone is going to shoot. Probably both someones.

 

[dusty14u]

I went fishing in our city limits in May and had an incident where I drew my weapon and held 3 men for police. I was trying out an area I had never fished that a co-worker had told me about. It was the back part of a city park and there were a series of lakes. I loaded my kayak but didn't launch it when I got there. A single two wheel dirt track ran out of the back of the park between railroad tracks and the lakes. Cypress trees and fairly swampy but the fishing was good. I found a place to park off the track and the railroad.

I started fishing along the bank and was about 75 yrs from my vehicle and heard a crash.I was on my cell with my wife discussing where to meet for lunch as it was noon. I told her someone hit my car and I took a few steps back from the bank so I could see my vehicle. I saw a male grabbing the handle of my door and trying to jerk it open. As soon as I saw him I saw he was with two other guys. As soon as they saw me I started to run toward the car and they started down the track toward the park.

They had a ways to go and I never stopped running and they had no where to go since the railroad tracks with heavy vegetation was on one side and the lake was on the other. They then turned around and headed for me. They got within about 25ft and I pulled my Shield and ordered them on the ground. It was very tense for a minute while I watched to see if any one of them was going to reach for their waist or make any moves. They were saying that someone else had broken my window and they were looking for me as well as other things. As soon as they were on the ground with hands out I called 911. I told the dispatcher what was going down and that they were on the ground and covered by my weapon.

It took 5 minutes for the cops to show up. They had to walk the last 100yds because they couldn't get their cars down the track because of holes. The dispatcher told me to tell him as soon as I saw the cops out of their cars to let him know and then instructed me to place the Shield on the ground and raise my hands so the cops would know which one I was.

They took the gun and took control of everything from there. They had no problem at all with me pulling my weapon. The took my license and permit when they picked up the Shield. Several cops commented they liked the gun.

They only charged the guy who I saw trying to get the door open. He plead guilty in Oct of this year to a misdemeanor after initially facing a felony. The lead investor said the guy was very familiar to them.

It was something I never expected to happen, especially in broad daylight at noon. It happened quickly and I reacted quickly. I feel that if I hadn't pulled my weapon they would have beat me and taken my car or at least anything they wanted out of the car. They had fishing poles and the one guy used his pole to smash the window. I would hate to take a hit from a fishing pole too.

The cops never had an issue with me pulling the guy because of the disparity. Three young guys in their early 20's and I am in my mind 50's. I am so thankful they weren't armed with a gun although they all had knives. I was prepared to double tap the first to reach for something and relieved when they didn't. I knew the judge and he got me restitution for the damages.

 

[javjacob]

There are a lot of different opinions and all of them think they are right and everyone else is wrong. I guess one way to look at it is not to shoot until you know you have no other choice. Even then you have to make the choice between possibly being killed vs possibly going to jail. There are no guarantees. There are many innocent people found guilty and many guilty people found innocent. I guess it really matters who you are and who you have on your side. A good attorney would be a must if it ever came down to it.

 

[Slamfire]

Tben I saw some someone walk up behind Mr hot head and stand next to him. A buddy I assume. I thought great 2 on 1. But this new fellow seemed to calm Mr hot head down immediately. in fact he did a 180 and apologized several times, shook my hand and left

You know, it ended well. No one got killed, no one went to jail. If you shot and killed the guy, you would be feeling a lot worse.

 

[denton]

As an old lady with some physical issues...

I'm so old I was on the team that designed mud. Dirt and water had been previously invented, so I missed out on those.

Someone who is both older and female would certainly have disparity of force on her side.

All that said, I would want to be sure I had exhausted all avenues of retreat, de-escalation, non-lethal force, etc. before letting Mr. Springfield have his say.

 

[Sam1911]

Something that perhaps needs saying here, since many times we end up in what probably looks like we're taking PRO-self-defense vs. ANTI-self-defense sides in these discussions:

None of us here at THR is against the right of a private citizen to use lethal force to defend him or herself or their families against violence. Every one of us has spent great amounts of time preparing and practicing to use firearms (and blades, and OC, and hands and feet, and other stuff) in self-defense situations. We work for and vote for good, pro-self-defense laws and a society that respects those who choose to be ready for that terrible necessity.

None of us doubts any other member's desire to do the right thing, nor their willingness to employ weapons to protect life. (And certainly not their readiness to be "...judged by 12 rather than carried by 6." )


Our goal in all these discussions is to help our defense-minded friends here understand how the law works, and what things one needs to keep in mind when readying ones self for the possibility of killing another person out of gravest necessity.

Our goal is NOT to make anyone hesitate in the moment of NEED and thus fail to act. Our goal is to help folks walk this horribly risky path in the ways least likely to lead to legal and fiscal, as well as tactical, disaster. How to survive the shooting, and survive what comes after that, too.

Finding out how the law works AFTER you're eyeball deep in a criminal case is a terrible thing. We want to be prepared with knowledge and understanding, as well as with our guns and minds.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

I had a similar confrontation once.

I once awoke to the sound of my snowgo being started at -30 or so.

I went out in a robe and boots with my 9mm, and found a neighbor kid really gunning the poppin' motor in an effort to leave, but the track, belt and such were still frozen solid.This was no small kid, but a 19 year old intoxicated dog mushing, wood chopping, water hauling young man, and not lacking for strength...

He saw me comming and put up his fists to fight, while still sitting on my snowgo, saying "You cant shoot me *&^%$#.........." as I turned the pistol in my hand and split his mouth to his nostril.......a loaded Browning Hi-Power aint light or made of Poly...and he was suddenly looking crosseyed and sitting on the ground.....and he left.


A while later an Alaska State Trooper called me, as the use of the gun was reported by the ladys stitching the morons lip at the clinic, and asked if I 'used a gun on my neighbor', so I explained myself.....he retorted "The guy said you were loaning him your ride" to which I answered "At 4 am? Nope , sorry, thats BS...." To which he answered; "Thats my thought as well, good night ....." and hung up.

I knew there was no reason to shoot, at least at the time, but getting into a fairfight would not have been a better option, either.

Thats my one and only "Saved by gun in my hand" experience.

Jim in Anch, I would hope that the lady that had someone broke into her apt would be checked on and OK. Do the Tenets there carry or at least have home protection firearms? If I lived in or owned a building, I would at least get with the neighbors and talk with them about self defence/use in a building where other are on the other side of the wall, #12 shot in a shotgun, or running .38 SW in a .357 etc...lower, less penetrating rounds.....or some friendly advice about being aware of others. We actually discuss those things here in our village, as we all live close, in scenario talks about active shooters and such at planning meetings.

You shoved a Browning HP in the guys face so hard it split his lip? I like it
No I am not going to deal with that apt down the street. 11 units, high turn over, absentee owner. This is not a village, it's Anchorage just another city.

 

[bainter1212]

Tagged

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by caribou:

I once awoke to the sound of my snowgo being started at -30 or so.

I went out in a robe and boots with my 9mm, ...

The "school solution" here is to not do that.

We have even doing a lot of talking about the legal aspects here.

But people should consider the following stubborn little facts:

• Once one leaves to go outside, he is exposed and vulnerable;
• he has no idea how many people are out there, or where they are, or what they are up to;
• that gun in hand is not a talisman; it has no magical powers to stop bullets;
• should there be persons bent on violent crime out there--and that would be the reason for picking up the gun in the first place--it is likely that they will be alert and will see the defender coming out and approcaching.

Realistically, there is likely nothing that would make it worth the risk.

All downside, no upside.

 

[au_prospector]

This is all very interesting/.././

This is all very interesting and thought provoking, however the OP asked about pulling a gun apparently while on his private property albeit the property is leased by others so maybe his place of business technically?

Anyway the thread seems to be going astray, not in a bad way I dont think.

My point is, pulling a gun to me means simply unholstering a pistol/revolver or having a long gun at your side and being ready for what might come next. I cant see where having a firearm in your hand on private property~business or not is a problem?

I can see where pointing it at someone could bring an assault charge and obviously pulling the trigger is use, however having it out of the holster and in your hand is a potential problem? Is this not what the OP is asking?

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by au_prospector:

This is all very interesting and thought provoking, however the OP asked about pulling a gun apparently while on his private property albeit the property is leased by others so maybe his place of business technically?

Anyway the thread seems to be going astray, not in a bad way I dont think.

My point is, pulling a gun to me means simply unholstering a pistol/revolver or having a long gun at your side and being ready for what might come next. I cant see where having a firearm in your hand on private property~business or not is a problem?

I can see where pointing it at someone could bring an assault charge and obviously pulling the trigger is use, however having it out of the holster and in your hand is a potential problem? Is this not what the OP is asking?

Two things: (1) "on his private property" is really not a very pertinent point; and (2) yes, having it out of the holster can be much more than a "potential" problem.

Re-read Post # 57.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

This is all very interesting and thought provoking, however the OP asked about pulling a gun apparently while on his private property albeit the property is leased by others so maybe his place of business technically?

Anyway the thread seems to be going astray, not in a bad way I dont think.

My point is, pulling a gun to me means simply unholstering a pistol/revolver or having a long gun at your side and being ready for what might come next. I cant see where having a firearm in your hand on private property~business or not is a problem?

I can see where pointing it at someone could bring an assault charge and obviously pulling the trigger is use, however having it out of the holster and in your hand is a potential problem? Is this not what the OP is asking?

Let me clarify. It's a 4 unit apt building that I own and live in. And yes I rent out the other 3 units. It's my primary residence not a place of business.
I really don't see what this has to do with the issue.

 

[Evil-Twin]

There are some fine points to this discussion.: Just a few
what does owning a gun constitute?
can you touch is, show it, clean it on your own property at any time.

What does having a conceal carry permit allow?
It allows you to carry it concealed, but does that mean that you can never show it? Does it mean that the mere view of your weapon except for shooting someone, constitutes a crime?

What does it mean to have a license to carry in an Open carry State mean?
To me it means I can show my weapon in a non threatening manner, Carry my weapon openly, display that I am armed, in a non threatening way. This also means I can carry my weapon concealed and at some point display my weapon in a manner that suggests that I am indeed armed. Openly showing my weapon in a Open carry State, only shows that I am armed, it doesn't mean that I am menacing.

The sudden display that you are armed, to a potential assailant, only shows your right to openly display your weapon. It also alerts the assailant that you are displaying your legal right to bare arms, and to the fact that a life threatening act can have severe consequences. I am not talking drawing your weapon and pointing it. If the display of my weapon defuses a potential threat of force or potential life, then the right to carry openly is about as good as it gets.

ON the other side of the coin: Open carry can be a deterrent but it can also allow a bad guy who targets you as a victim to take away the threat of your weapon by considering a more aggressive assault on you before you can react.

Personally, I like to mind my own business, I do not like to show the fact that I am armed. The fact that I am armed gives me a feeling of confidence in that I have a chance to defend myself. This allows me to go through life daily without having to look over my shoulder "in fear". This doesn't mean that I don't have to look over my shoulder any more. looking over my shoulder is part of my personal protection awareness...

You can not determine, on any given day, when you will become a victim of a crime, so for me, I question those with a permit to carry, and their reluctance to carry every day.

Just some points to ponder from a guy who has been carrying for 55 years, and who has honed his personal protection skills, not only in awareness, but in proficiency, and in carry application... ( holster ) and also a guy who has on two occasions ( in 55 years- both over 30 years ago ), had to draw my weapon to protect myself or my family. Without having a weapon on those two occasions, my life would be non existent.( I believe that most will never have to draw their weapon, but its sure nice to know its there )
Bill aka ET

 

[old lady new shooter]

Posted by caribou:The "school solution" here is to not do that.

We have even doing a lot of talking about the legal aspects here.

But people should consider the following stubborn little facts:

• Once one leaves to go outside, he is exposed and vulnerable;
• he has no idea how many people are out there, or where they are, or what they are up to;
• that gun in hand is not a talisman; it has no magical powers to stop bullets;
• should there be persons bent on violent crime out there--and that would be the reason for picking up the gun in the first place--it is likely that they will be alert and will see the defender coming out and approcaching.

Realistically, there is likely nothing that would make it worth the risk.

All downside, no upside.

Personally I would not go outside to confront a trespasser (or car thief). Regardless of the legal issue that would be way increasing my risk. If BG breaks into my house that's a different story.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Evil-Twin:

what does owning a gun constitute?
can you touch is, show it, clean it on your own property at any time.

Yes, if you show in in a lawful manner.

What does having a conceal carry permit allow?
It allows you to carry it concealed, but does that mean that you can never show it? Does it mean that the mere view of your weapon except for shooting someone, constitutes a crime?

No. What you cannot do is threaten, or show it to persuade or dissuade or gain compliance, or display it in a reckless or dangerous manner, unless it is necessary to do so and unless the necessary conditions are met.

What does it mean to have a license to carry in an Open carry State mean?
To me it means I can show my weapon in a non threatening manner, Carry my weapon openly, display that I am armed, in a non threatening way. This also means I can carry my weapon concealed and at some point display my weapon in a manner that suggests that I am indeed armed. Openly showing my weapon in a Open carry State, only shows that I am armed, it doesn't mean that I am menacing.

That's the way I see it.

The sudden display that you are armed, to a potential assailant, only shows your right to openly display your weapon. It also alerts the assailant that you are displaying your legal right to bare arms, and to the fact that a life threatening act can have severe consequences.

I think we have been over that.

Let's take Arizona for example. There is a provision in the law for the "defensive display of a firearm". That includes such things as placing one’s hand on it, exposing the gun, or telling a person that one is armed. It is lawful--but only if the use of non-deadly physical force would b lawfully justified at the time. Before that law was enacted, doing any one of those things in the absence of a justification for the use of deadly force would constitute aggravated assault, which is a very serious crime.

Arizona ia one of only a very few states with such a low threshold for justification.

I am not talking drawing your weapon and pointing it.

One need not point actually a gun without justification to commit a felony, or to give another person the lawful justification for shooting in self defense, or perhaps to cause a third person to shoot.

If the display of my weapon defuses a potential threat of force or potential life, then the right to carry openly is about as good as it gets.

That is an advantage of open carry.

ON the other side of the coin: Open carry can be a deterrent but it can also allow a bad guy who targets you as a victim to take away the threat of your weapon by considering a more aggressive assault on you before you can react.

True.

You can not determine, on any given day, when you will become a victim of a crime, so for me, I question those with a permit to carry, and their reluctance to carry every day.

I agree.

 

[Evil-Twin]

Posted by Evil-Twin:Yes, if you show in in a lawful manner.

No. What you cannot do is threaten, or show it to persuade or dissuade or gain compliance, or display it in a reckless or dangerous manner, unless it is necessary to do so and unless the necessary conditions are met.

That's the way I see it.

I think we have been over that.

Let's take Arizona for example. There is a provision in the law for the "defensive display of a firearm". That includes such things as placing one’s hand on it, exposing the gun, or telling a person that one is armed. It is lawful--but only if the use of non-deadly physical force would b lawfully justified at the time. Before that law was enacted, doing any one of those things in the absence of a justification for the use of deadly force would constitute aggravated assault, which is a very serious crime.

Arizona ia one of only a very few states with such a low threshold for justification.

One need not point actually a gun without justification to commit a felony, or to give another person the lawful justification for shooting in self defense, or perhaps to cause a third person to shoot.

That is an advantage of open carry.

True.

I agree.

While this is slightly out of context
No. What you cannot do is threaten, or show it to persuade or dissuade or gain compliance..
I have to disagree, that the display of my weapon to an aggressive person in order to dissuade them from continuing their aggressive manner, is within the law in an Open carry State. IM not talking drawing and pointing. IM talking only showing that I am armed.
Bill aka ET

 

[Milt1]

I'm really glad that we have this avenue (THR) to discuss this. All of us that CC know that we can be jailed by using lethal force to defend ourselves or family member or perhaps others. If our shooting someone is justified and deem so by the authorities, we know that we can still be sued by the perp's family. It (CC) isn't something to be taken lightly and I hope that every H-Roader reads this.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Evil-Twin:

While this is slightly out of context
No. What you cannot do is threaten, or show it to persuade or dissuade or gain compliance..
I have to disagree, that the display of my weapon to an aggressive person in order to dissuade them from continuing their aggressive manner, is within the law in an Open carry State. IM not talking drawing and pointing. IM talking only showing that I am armed.
Bill aka ET

I'm not sure what you are trying stay.

If you carry openly, without drawing attention to your fire-arm, without seeming to express any challenging thoughts whatsoever to anyone else, while conducting yourself with complete civility perfect politeness and keeping completely to yourself, it really won't matter what your personal reason for carrying openly might be.

If, on the other hand, there is anything at all about your behavior that could reasonably interpreted as expressing a challenge or warning of any kind while showing that you are armed while your firearm is on your hip, you could and up in a world of trouble.

In other words, if you display your weapon to another person in order to dissuade them from doing anything, expect serious consequences.

That is true anywhere, even in an open carry state.

One more time, it would meet the usual definition of assault at common law.

Read Post # 57 again, as many times as it takes, and take it to heart.

 

[Homeland]

An absolute must do is NOT to say anything to the Police. You politely say that you need to have you attorney present before you say anything. Most Police are given the same respect when they are involved in a shooting - and they are trained to handle themselves. You ain't!

If you have the time, take a look at this YouTube Video given by a law professor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc&list=PLdI90iJp1qBmA_qxdLk33bId4mD4Vm2Rc

 

[Evil-Twin]

When you weigh a civil law suit against the loss of your life, I would take the civil suit any day. If the shooting is justified, but you fail to shoot and lose your life because you are afraid of a civil suit , then you might as well sell your guns and tear up your CC. The right to protect yourself and your family should not be thrown away out of fear of the law. There are a lot of people depending on my existence. If I turn my back on those people because I fear a civil suit, I am not only failing the system but more importantly I am failing my family.
There is much more to personal carry than protecting yourself. its also a means to go through life with the confidence that you wont be a victim without a chance to defend yourself. When I have to travel to a State were I am unable to carry, I feel naked and extremely vulnerable. Criminals don't care about State laws, they also know law abiding citizen are like gun safe zones. which make their assaults much less of the personal threat to themselves.

 

[Evil-Twin]

I am not sure what you don't understand...Kleenbore. I said several times and even showed photos of my concealed pocket carry ....I carry concealed... IM 70 years old, some juiced up bad guy ( 22 years old 250 lbs ) figures he could intimidate me into a robbery. His physical presents by itself constitutes a threat of physical harm... the bad guy figures he can intimidate me to the point of a knock out punch, ( by itself could cause me a heart attack )
All I am saying is if I reveal my weapon to this guy, even with my hand on it.... it could be enough to dissuade further confrontation. I may have the right at this point to protect myself, but why go through the grief of shooting someone if the reveal would drive him away or back off, or think twice. Remember I am not menacing him.. he is menacing me. I am now not just an old guy that looks like a victim to him ... I am now an old guy with a weapon. A much different situation. for the bad guy.