question on carry condition, EXCEPT 1911's

[mjmcgrso]

The great thing about being a free range Redneck is I don't have to shoot at a "range" or put up with someone's interpretation of "safe"

That's all fine and good, except when one who's not a free range redneck is qualifying to maintain ones state issued license, one must fire at a range whether one wishes to or not...

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Personally, I wouldn't. That's the point I was hoping to validate with my query. Thanks.

So it's just laziness of people at your range who can't be bothered to take an eighth of a second to decock their pistol? And who on Earth carries a DA/SA revolver cocked? That takes actual effort to be stupid, not just shear laziness.

Man, that would drive me nuts.

 

[mjmcgrso]

I know I just started this thread this morning, but I believe I have all the validation to my query I need so far.
I do have one small favor to ask of those who have responded, and that is does anyone know of any articles written by an acknowledged authority in the firearms industry addressing this topic in particular?
Being a licensed assumed guard, NRA instructor and RSO as well as having owned and operated a computer company for a few brief years has lent little by way of my finishing anything, anywhere from one end of the internet to the other talking about carrying a cocked revolver or DA hammer fired semi auto. Nadda!
I really have no desire to cause friction between myself and the guys I assist, and it's not about who's right or wrong, but I really have to stand firm on my conviction that allowing this practice is an injury, death or lawsuit waiting to happen and it's only my sincere desire to communicate this to them that is motivating me to get this information from someone in the know.

 

[mjmcgrso]

So it's just laziness of people at your range who can't be bothered to take an eighth of a second to decock their pistol? And who on Earth carries a DA/SA revolver cocked? That takes actual effort to be stupid, not just shear laziness.

Man, that would drive me nuts.

No doubt

 

[JTQ]

Here's an old IDPA video with Ken Hackathorn (and I believe Bill Wilson)



Note the end of the video, "slide forward, hammer down, holster"

 

[HexHead]

Hoping I've not violated any of your constraints;
IMHO, no, it's not safe to carry anything (excluding revolvers) with a round in the chamber and the safety off and "safeties" sticking out of the trigger don't count.

Nonsense.

 

[mjmcgrso]

Here's an old IDPA video with Ken Hackathorn (and I believe Bill Wilson)



Note the end of the video, "slide forward, hammer down, holster"

That would never fly on any line I've been on or run. Reason: slide forward condition does not allow anyone but the one person who observed it to know it's clear. Anyone else along the line or at the range can not casually look at the gun and determine that it's clear. The general rule is, no magazine, slide OPEN and holstered.
That said, cleared range carry wasn't the issue. Loaded defensive carry was.

 

[JTQ]

How do you deal with holsters that latch on the ejection port? If the slide is back, I suspect the holster would only hold the gun via gravity.

How do you deal with revolvers?

 

[mjmcgrso]

How do you deal with holsters that latch on the ejection port? If the slide is back, I suspect the holster would only hold the gun via gravity.

How do you deal with revolvers?

While your questions are valid in another regard, the topic I wanted to stay on track with from the opening of the thread was not how to range carry a cleared gun. The topic at hand is whether or not anyone would carry a cocked da/sa revolver, or similar da / said semi with decocker but no other safety mechanism. The overwhelming, if not unanimous consensus is definitely not.

To answer your questions just the same however, revolvers are holstered on faith due to the obvious, and never come across a semi holster that relied on the ejection port for retention, only the front of the trigger guard. That said, never had any issues with retention with open slides.

 

[JTQ]

... never come across a semi holster that relied on the ejection port for retention, only the front of the trigger guard. That said, never had any issues with retention with open slides.

I believe that is how all the Safariland duty holsters operate. In addition, I don't believe you'd be able to close the hood on those holsters with the slide retracted.

 

[mjmcgrso]

I believe that is how all the Safariland duty holsters operate. In addition, I don't believe you'd be able to close the hood on those holsters with the slide retracted.

Correct. The most prevalent holster we see is the blackhawk serpa type, or just plain old kydex no lock types. Of course there are those who still insist on using floppy collapsible leather rigs which drive me nuts for a whole other set of reasons, but generally speaking none of the holsters we see or use prevent secured carry with the slides back.

The reason I hate floppy leather rigs is because nobody can ever reholster with one hand while looking ahead. They always, to a man end up hunting around trying to get their muzzle into the opening which is usually collapsed and or obstructed by the stupid strap, requiring the all to familiar, weak hand reacharound and neck bend look down to get their guns reholstered before everyone else celebrates their next birthdays.

 

[MedWheeler]

I would flee a range that encouraged such behavior, especially by role-modeling it.

I wonder if those that partake in it also routinely carry a single-action revolver with the hammer cocked...

 

[Hanzo581]

Hoping I've not violated any of your constraints;
IMHO, no, it's not safe to carry anything (excluding revolvers) with a round in the chamber and the safety off and "safeties" sticking out of the trigger don't count.

I'll assume you meant something different than you typed since one of the most popular carry guns (by civilians and police) in the world (Glock) would be considered unsafe by your standard.

 

[JTQ]

Maybe these videos will be more help

 

[JeffG]

IMHO you need to leave that range and never go back.

he carries a revolver, cocked. I looked at him in horror and said, you carry a DA revolver...COCKED? He acknowledged.

That's some pretty renegade safety theory. No way. Not for me, not for you.

 

[mjmcgrso]

he carries a revolver, cocked. I looked at him in horror and said, you carry a DA revolver...COCKED? He acknowledged.

That's some pretty renegade safety theory. No way. Not for me, not for you.

No kidding, it's my sincere hope that he somehow wasn't paying close attention to me and misunderstood what I meant... But I'm equally fearful that's not the case.

 

[Malamute]

My DA/SA semi-autos one can remove the mag and the gun won't fire. So load the gun and after racking the slide(safety off) you are cocked and ready to fire then eject the mag.

I would suggest to never assume such a gun is "safe" being left around loaded because of its magazine disconnect, nor assume another individual example of said gun, or any model normally so made is presumed safe with the magazine out. Its been fairly common for the magazine disconnect to be removed from Browning Highpowers. Whether one agrees with the practice or reasons for doing so or not, its done. Any gun you may pick up at any time could be so modified, so assuming they were safe with a loaded chamber and no magazine is a poor assumption.

 

[mjmcgrso]

Maybe these videos will be more help

There was indeed some valuable information there. The second one maybe more so.
My only wish is that they had actually addressed the matter of holstering and carying said DA guns in a cocked state.
The bearded fellow in the second video goes to great lengths to emphasize the importance of the inherent safety factor of the long heavy DA pull, but he never puts the wagon in reverse and mentioned the stupidity of carrying one with the hammer cocked.... Although, anyone with an ounce of brains listening to him should be able to piece that together for themselves, BUT, it's someone actually saying it is what I'm looking for.
Glad you posted these, thank you.

 

[mjmcgrso]

I would flee a range that encouraged such behavior, especially by role-modeling it.

I wonder if those that partake in it also routinely carry a single-action revolver with the hammer cocked...

I know, me too. It's really got me in a difficult position with my feelings towards two great guys that I hold in such high regard whereas their experience lies and all they've done for me and allowed me to accomplish. But not stopping to contemplate what it is that I'm trying so desperately to get through to them is extremely frustrating given that they're the ones with the background and greater experience, but now I'm starting to get really uncomfortable at the prospect of putting my foot down and losing their support and friendship if I have to respectfully turn away from them due to their lack of acknowledgement that their "intern" so to speak is right and they're wrong on this.

 

[98Redline]

The reason you don't hear anybody address the specific issue of a DA firearm being carried cocked with the safety off is because it is glaringly unsafe. These guys you are dealing with may be otherwise decent guys but this practice is putting both themselves and others around them at risk.

To the comment regarding the IDPA range commands, this is the way competitions have been run for decades. The procedure is common to just about all disciplines I have been involved with.

1. Competitor completes the course of fire, drops mag and shows clear.
2. RO checks the chamber is clear, tells competitor slide forward, hammer down, and holster
3. Gun is holstered and is not touched again unless the competitor is on the firing line or at a safe table.

Everybody shooting in one of these competitions has attended a mandatory safety brief and is aware of the required procedures. Regarding the holstering with the slide back, not all holsters will accommodate this. I know that my Safariland will not. If the slide is back the front of the gun is not properly supported and is prone to wobble and possibly fall out. The other side is for competitors shooting revolvers. You can't leave the cylinder open on a revolver and holster it, thus the procedure above becomes common to all firearm types with no exceptions.

 

[mjmcgrso]

The reason you don't hear anybody address the specific issue of a DA firearm being carried cocked with the safety off is because it is glaringly unsafe. These guys you are dealing with may be otherwise decent guys but this practice is putting both themselves and others around them at risk.

To the comment regarding the IDPA range commands, this is the way competitions have been run for decades. The procedure is common to just about all disciplines I have been involved with.

1. Competitor completes the course of fire, drops mag and shows clear.
2. RO checks the chamber is clear, tells competitor slide forward, hammer down, and holster
3. Gun is holstered and is not touched again unless the competitor is on the firing line or at a safe table.

Everybody shooting in one of these competitions has attended a mandatory safety brief and is aware of the required procedures. Regarding the holstering with the slide back, not all holsters will accommodate this. I know that my Safariland will not. If the slide is back the front of the gun is not properly supported and is prone to wobble and possibly fall out. The other side is for competitors shooting revolvers. You can't leave the cylinder open on a revolver and holster it, thus the procedure above becomes common to all firearm types with no exceptions.

I definitely see how that would work under the conditions of competition where one shooter and one range officer are together at a time. It won't work on our training lines where we have as many as 15 or more guys side by side all firing at the same time and only being monitored by a couple of RSOs. We clear our line by having the entire line leave slides back, no mags so we can see at a glance the gun is indeed clear as well as any other person on the line. This works because some of these guys are novice shooters and even the so called veteran guys are prone to leaving one in the chamber. When we catch them and call them out to point down range and lock their slides back... out pops a live round.
Hell, during the very class I attended to get my NRA instructor certification, I discreetly nudged a fellow candidate at the range in a group gathering behind the line and quietly brought it to his attention that his side was forward in violation of the range officer's instruction. When he reached around to comply, yep, live round plopped out into the dirt. Better I caught him than the guy running the course. He would likely have had a problem, they were very adament about that from the get go.

 

[Waveski]

Is it safe/unsafe to carry a handgun cocked , with safety off?

If one stands outside in a thunderstorm , with no umbrella or rain coat , will that person get wet?

 

[mjmcgrso]

Is it safe/unsafe to carry a handgun cocked , with safety off?

If one stands outside in a thunderstorm , with no umbrella or rain coat , will that person get wet?

Yes they would... So, is it safe, or unsafe to carry cocked? Not sure which way you're leaning there in that analogy.
But, remember, it's not just any gun we're talking about here because for some it is actually safe... It's just those specific types I originally outlined that are in question.

 

[huntsman]

I would suggest to never assume such a gun is "safe" being left around loaded because of its magazine disconnect, nor assume another individual example of said gun, or any model normally so made is presumed safe with the magazine out. Its been fairly common for the magazine disconnect to be removed from Browning Highpowers. Whether one agrees with the practice or reasons for doing so or not, its done. Any gun you may pick up at any time could be so modified, so assuming they were safe with a loaded chamber and no magazine is a poor assumption.

So I purchased both guns one NIB tried both to assure the mag disconnect did function yet I'm to still disregard it as a safety? You do know S&W used the mag disconnect as a "safety" feature in their advertising? Bubbafied guns are a risk on the used gun market and something I avoid like the plague but I'm also not in the habit of picking strange guns and just pulling the trigger either.

 

[LoneGoose]

As a range marshal, you should include into your routine "make your weapon safe and holster it." Clarify what "safe" is before sending anyone to the line. Remove anyone who doesn't comply.