The other thing is that I almost always single load. Always at the range. I was able to get 2 rounds in the blind mag before the spacer was a problem. So for hunting, it seems that I could still have 3 .308 rounds without modifying the magazine. I'll do more mag testing with dummy rounds to make sure.
Re barreling a post '64 Winchester 70
- Thread starter Qball16
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sage5907
Member
Pardon me for saying so, but I think the use of a barrel nut is way off base. How many Model 70 Winchesters have you seen with a barrel nut. It is a simple procedure for a good gunsmith to adjust the length of the tenon and the headspace. The gunsmith will "take a turn" and the barrel shank to properly align the barrel with the bolt face. It only needs to be done one time and that is when the barrel is installed. Also, no wood needs to removed in the magazine box area because the rifle already has a long magazine box installed. It currently has two baffles for the short 225 cartridge, and the front baffle must be removed for a 243/308 and both baffles must be removed for a 270/30-06. This is not a complicated problem. One final point, his receiver has 16 threads per inch. The later barrels have 28 threads per about and inch and one sixteenth. He needs to find a barrel from the correct period rifle and have it installed by a competent gunsmith.
The reason you dont see barrel nuts on Winchesters is people dont usually build swap barrel guns on them, there also arnt alot of moded post 64s as they tend to not be as "desireable", except to those that own them.
If Qball was going 308 forever, than i wouldnt second the nut. As he would like to be able to swap back to .225, the nut makes alot of since because with a matching spanner and set of headspace guages (or just a go or modified no/go) and a decent vice he can change back and for him self.
You could after this is done also add properly threaded barrels as you like, if you stick with the 08 fam than youll likely only need 08 headspace gauges.
If 1stmarines willing to do the work, which he sounds like he is id def take him up on it.
If Qball was going 308 forever, than i wouldnt second the nut. As he would like to be able to swap back to .225, the nut makes alot of since because with a matching spanner and set of headspace guages (or just a go or modified no/go) and a decent vice he can change back and for him self.
You could after this is done also add properly threaded barrels as you like, if you stick with the 08 fam than youll likely only need 08 headspace gauges.
If 1stmarines willing to do the work, which he sounds like he is id def take him up on it.
1stmarine
Member
with the rim cartridges like the 225 the headspace is determined by the rim so the critical dimension is between the bolt face and the chamber where the rim sits.
In any case it is a good idea to have things zeroed so the case shoulder will also zero at optimal length according to your dies this way avoiding stretching the brass during firing.
Either way w/o a barrel nut one controls this by cutting a bit form the tenon shoulder so additional machine time is required to get a proper head-space and cambering job.
For a barrel nut swap your .225 will have to be retrofitted extending the threads to allocate the barrel nut that is not a huge deal but you need to extend those threads for
whatever barrel nut you choose.
Initially I think Ruger barrels are good candidates since they share the same threads and some come with barrel nuts but personally I prefer the Winchester barrels that can
be simply threaded for the same purpose. Even an old pre 64 barrel can be retrofitted by extending the length of the tenon and threads but the modern winchester barrels
have better bores and more consistency therefore assuring more accuracy potential.
I think after you do one barrel you can get a rough blueprint and then it will be easier to find what barrels will work better w/o any or minimum machine time.
You also have the option to go with a smooth custom barrel nut but then this is a piece that will have to be machined and blued. Not a huge thing and only a one time
deal but something to consider in terms of cosmetics.
The inlet might need the removal of some wood for the nut but then it is a perfect time to do some bedding and make the entire rifle a more consistent shooter.
You also will be able to order barrels from makers with the thread length that you want. The whole idea is to have something you can swap yourself so it might be
time to invest in a couple of tools. I proposed this from the beginning because you wanted cost effectiveness but there is also the versatility factor. Most folks
who have a workbench and a vise in the basement have no problem learning this process. However if you are the type of person who is not mechanically oriented
then this is not for you. Again not advanced skills are needed just a couple of tools and some patience. If you are a reloaded most likely you are good candidate
to swap barrels w/o issues. I think there is also the fun part and sense of pride to be able to improve and enjoy the rifle your grandfather left you.
1stmarine
Member
I can do that for you not a problem. I believe you might enjoy the project of doing this yourself but only you can decide.
Ask if you can borrow the wrench but otherwise it is a small investment vs.a gunsmith.
If you decide to go this way then I would break the barrel from the action and this way you know you can make it.
And if you decide to invest in the wrenches then it will always pay off because you can use them to swap calibers
and how knows, in the future do other rifles perhaps?
I cannot make that decision only you. Do you have a drill press and/or a vise? You might be able to make a jig w/o buying the action
wrench and only need the tool for the barrel nut. In most towns one can get everything one needs at the local ACE hardware store
to make DIY makeshift action wrench. Might be able to find a used one too at ebay, amazon and what not.
It is not rocket science as others will tell you.
I've been planning on getting a barrel vise anyway and I have a Savage 10 in 308 with the smooth nut that I'd like to have a 6.5 barrel of some sort for anyway. So investing in the tools was going to happen either way. Then I'll need the gauges and action wrench, etc.. yeah, I'm handy enough to do any of that. I'd be tempted to have a Smith do the nut inletting, bedding and floating though. I would be concerned about making it ugly. I can't really see a downside of going this route. The only irreversible aspect would be the minor stock inletting for the nut, and I can live with that. The rifle will probably never have great value, besides to me anyway. So let's plan on the .308 barrel. PM what you need for it, threaded with a nut and with shipping, to the Milwaukee area. I'll start shopping for a Smith.....or start researching doing those other things myself.
1stmarine
Member
I still think you don't need the smith. I would look at some materials and then decide.
Also let me send you a couple of pics of the barrel to make sure you like it.
Also let me send you a couple of pics of the barrel to make sure you like it.
1stmarine
Member
NP. I enjoy these things plus that is what we do at the enthusiasts forums, help each other.
The whole idea is to achieve the same or even better results with a reasonable budget.
you don't need to go for a huge bedding job, just something that will improve the rifle.
You will not need a lot of material to make it 10 times better. The key is preparation.
With good preparation the rest is easy. The Winchester is easier than other actions too.
do you have a drill press and a vise?
The whole idea is to achieve the same or even better results with a reasonable budget.
you don't need to go for a huge bedding job, just something that will improve the rifle.
You will not need a lot of material to make it 10 times better. The key is preparation.
With good preparation the rest is easy. The Winchester is easier than other actions too.
do you have a drill press and a vise?
1stmarine
Member
...plus you could take pictures and make a pdf and or post it here so others in the same boat
can use it as a guide. I have no problems in adding some pics too but after the barrel is ready with a nut the rest
is pretty much the same as a savage or any other bedding job.
I think we can provide you a list of items in preparation to do it well and still within a decent budget.
can use it as a guide. I have no problems in adding some pics too but after the barrel is ready with a nut the rest
is pretty much the same as a savage or any other bedding job.
I think we can provide you a list of items in preparation to do it well and still within a decent budget.
1stmarine
Member
I just sent you a pm. I hope it makes sense.
but essentially I was telling you because you will survive with a jig and with the Winchester and then the savage you will need two wrenches or two inserts
that are expensive. I would not mind make in a jig for you that is a fraction of the cost and then document it here so others can take the blueprint
to make their own when they need it.
you see, once the barrel breaks from the action there is less need for it because a barrel nut all it needs is 30-40 ft-lb so there will be minimum need for
heavy duty wrenches and the jig will do the job the first time.
Having a vise it makes it even easier. All it does it is holding the tool.
The drill press is nice to have to drill the holes in the wood stock in order to insert the pillars.
Again I am assuming you don't have a bedding job but maybe your grandfather or someone did it already. I will you will find out.
but essentially I was telling you because you will survive with a jig and with the Winchester and then the savage you will need two wrenches or two inserts
that are expensive. I would not mind make in a jig for you that is a fraction of the cost and then document it here so others can take the blueprint
to make their own when they need it.
you see, once the barrel breaks from the action there is less need for it because a barrel nut all it needs is 30-40 ft-lb so there will be minimum need for
heavy duty wrenches and the jig will do the job the first time.
Having a vise it makes it even easier. All it does it is holding the tool.
The drill press is nice to have to drill the holes in the wood stock in order to insert the pillars.
Again I am assuming you don't have a bedding job but maybe your grandfather or someone did it already. I will you will find out.
1stmarine
Member
@Qball16
when you are ready can you take the action apart and take some pictures and simple measures.
Also please confirm the outside diameter of the action right by the tenon area to see what barrel outside shape would work the best otherwise a smooth nut might be the route.
Don't need a micrometer just a couple of rough measures from side to side. Might take the scope off that is needed for this project anyway.
I am curious about the stock in the chamber area. you could strengthen that area
easily as you do the bedding job. Perhaps your grandfather already did something to it.
With factory wood stocks this will help keep the wood stock impervious to humidity and temperature changes.
when you are ready can you take the action apart and take some pictures and simple measures.
Also please confirm the outside diameter of the action right by the tenon area to see what barrel outside shape would work the best otherwise a smooth nut might be the route.
Don't need a micrometer just a couple of rough measures from side to side. Might take the scope off that is needed for this project anyway.
I am curious about the stock in the chamber area. you could strengthen that area
easily as you do the bedding job. Perhaps your grandfather already did something to it.
With factory wood stocks this will help keep the wood stock impervious to humidity and temperature changes.
OK, I have the action out of the stock. The action at the tenon is 1.34" wide. As you can see, the stock has not been bedded. I did some sanding to float the barrel. I can insert a piece of printer paper up to the action with no problem.
1stmarine
Member
@Qball16,
Yep the dimensions are exactly what we expected.
The stock could use some bedding. You can start preparation any time.
Regarding the barrel it is a 22" and the profile should be pretty much the same typical of the M70 hunting rifles so your scope should work.
Measure the diameter right under the objective where the scope is closest to the barrel and then tell me the distance from that point
to the action. This way we will know for sure. It should be fine.
I will put a list of things that you need to prepare for the bedding so this way you have everything you need to do this with a modest
budget but will produce the same results as an expensive bedding job or buying expensive bedding kits.
Yep the dimensions are exactly what we expected.
The stock could use some bedding. You can start preparation any time.
Regarding the barrel it is a 22" and the profile should be pretty much the same typical of the M70 hunting rifles so your scope should work.
Measure the diameter right under the objective where the scope is closest to the barrel and then tell me the distance from that point
to the action. This way we will know for sure. It should be fine.
I will put a list of things that you need to prepare for the bedding so this way you have everything you need to do this with a modest
budget but will produce the same results as an expensive bedding job or buying expensive bedding kits.
1stmarine
Member
Also do you want to keep the blind magazine or go for a drop bottom plate or detachable one?
You can do that on a later date but perhaps now would also be a good time.
You can do that on a later date but perhaps now would also be a good time.
1stmarine
Member
@Qball16,
Thanks. It seems the closest the barrel is from the scope is at the rear of the objective right? that is .89" and 3.9" from the action.
At this point the new barrel has an OD of .860" at 3.9" from the action so the scope will not touch.
Since action measures vary a tad through the years please tell me these dimensions below and I will make sure the insert for the jig has cuts for a tight fit.
If you tell me how high the scope base is I will make a cut on the top insert so you will not have to remove the scope base in future barrel swaps.
I don't want to make the slot too deep so it is stronger but I will leave some room. I just want to make sure because scope bases also change
a lot in dimensions. Also if it is a canted base let me know in the highest point of the front section of the action.It should be a minute difference.
Again these things are just for convenience down the road. We make tools to help us and save work and not the other way around.
Thanks. It seems the closest the barrel is from the scope is at the rear of the objective right? that is .89" and 3.9" from the action.
At this point the new barrel has an OD of .860" at 3.9" from the action so the scope will not touch.
Since action measures vary a tad through the years please tell me these dimensions below and I will make sure the insert for the jig has cuts for a tight fit.
If you tell me how high the scope base is I will make a cut on the top insert so you will not have to remove the scope base in future barrel swaps.
I don't want to make the slot too deep so it is stronger but I will leave some room. I just want to make sure because scope bases also change
a lot in dimensions. Also if it is a canted base let me know in the highest point of the front section of the action.It should be a minute difference.
Again these things are just for convenience down the road. We make tools to help us and save work and not the other way around.
1stmarine
Member
Thanks.
I forgot, the barrel is 22" overall but 21-1/8" from the action to the muzzle. just to make sure because many people measure them
differently.
I think for the bedding you can do a simple job with the pillars and then a bit more in the critical area to wrap the recoil lug
and ahead in the hand-guard for stiffness. Also in the back. aside from the pillar a couple of spots where it is good to go a bit
deeper but for the rest is not needed since those would be the major stress points. This will be no stress bedding.
One thing I suggest always is to embed a steel bar 6 inches or so in the forearm. This along with the epoxy gives great
stiffness to the wood. Think of it as a casting a the bottom. small thin layers do nothing but a larger space with some additional
grooves on the side will work like a backbone and ribs giving great stiffness and making wood impervious to seasons and weather.
Overall one doesn't need a lot of material nor it becomes more complicated. Good preparation is key.
We can trace the areas and then prepare the stock with masking tape.
for the pillars you can order them from midway or brownels or we can make an easy alternative. Aluminum is ideal for this but they can be made
of brass or other metals.
We will write the procedure and a parts list also look for some videos for you to watch otherwise I will make a quick video.
I forgot, the barrel is 22" overall but 21-1/8" from the action to the muzzle. just to make sure because many people measure them
differently.
I think for the bedding you can do a simple job with the pillars and then a bit more in the critical area to wrap the recoil lug
and ahead in the hand-guard for stiffness. Also in the back. aside from the pillar a couple of spots where it is good to go a bit
deeper but for the rest is not needed since those would be the major stress points. This will be no stress bedding.
One thing I suggest always is to embed a steel bar 6 inches or so in the forearm. This along with the epoxy gives great
stiffness to the wood. Think of it as a casting a the bottom. small thin layers do nothing but a larger space with some additional
grooves on the side will work like a backbone and ribs giving great stiffness and making wood impervious to seasons and weather.
Overall one doesn't need a lot of material nor it becomes more complicated. Good preparation is key.
We can trace the areas and then prepare the stock with masking tape.
for the pillars you can order them from midway or brownels or we can make an easy alternative. Aluminum is ideal for this but they can be made
of brass or other metals.
We will write the procedure and a parts list also look for some videos for you to watch otherwise I will make a quick video.
1stmarine
Member
BTW when you get a chance put the action pointing down and spray some penetrating oil inside the breach around the tenon, not in the chamber but ahead of the lugs so it
goes down with gravity. Leave it like this a few days. Spray again other day. If you have to put it down cover the muzzle with some tape or a rubber cover so there is
no damage possible. A rug too to keep oil from staining. This will help loosing things a little after so many years.
If you put a case in with some plumbers putty film as seal then you can flood the breech with the penetrating oil and let gravity do the rest. no need a lot just enough so it sits over the threads.
small things make a big difference.
goes down with gravity. Leave it like this a few days. Spray again other day. If you have to put it down cover the muzzle with some tape or a rubber cover so there is
no damage possible. A rug too to keep oil from staining. This will help loosing things a little after so many years.
If you put a case in with some plumbers putty film as seal then you can flood the breech with the penetrating oil and let gravity do the rest. no need a lot just enough so it sits over the threads.
small things make a big difference.
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