Read This, All Fellow Gun Users

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Man, you guys sure beat up your keyboards on this one...

I've seen this argument often. I have come to the conclusion that one and only one thing needs to be decided before anything else is said on the subject. That is the question of whether taking a life can ever be justified. Some of you have addressed that part of Vindi's stance and I think we should stick to that point before muddling the discussion with other things. Everything hinges on that.

I believe that there are times when taking a human life is permissible and even necessary. I also believe that taking human life without a proper reason is wrong.

Pacifism is a nice theory. It is, however, not very applicable to the real world we live in. The reason that pacifism is not practical is that for it to work every time you need 100% of the people in the world to believe in it. That cannot happen due to the nature of humanity. People are a diverse bunch, especially in their beliefs and opinions.

Vindi, You have stated several things that can be seen as contradictory. I would like you to answer some questions for me to clarify the logic of your position. I will ask one question at a time to avoid confusion.

So, question #1 is

In your opinion, is there any conceivable circumstance that can justify taking the life of another human being? Please note that this is a yes or no question. There can be no maybes.
 
Even if every one in your neighbourhood does the same thing and manages to take down the gaurds that come knocking on their doors - does this make us any better than them? We are still taking human life, the reason for taking the lives is irrelevant.
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On a philosophical level, I can understand your high-level morals here, but I think this is a major sticking point between your attitude and mine.

There are BAD people who do BAD things to other people. Although rare, Evil does exist. Nazis were not outsiders, they were neighbors, co-workers and church members. Our Constitution is a basis for knowing where the lines are drawn.

Guns and self-defense training are only one of the tools I use to protect my family from the Evil in the world. And also from plain old bad luck or bad situations. Supporting the Constitution, educating myself and my family, keeping a good environment around my family, staying in shape, knowing how to survive in the woods and constant awareness of local/regional/world events all contribute to protecting my family from potential bad situations and/or total sociatal breakdown.
 
Most of your arguments have already been handily refuted above, Vindi (see also http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=27373 ), but you seem to forget one major problem with your "no guns Nirvana"; it hasn't worked ANYWHERE with ANYTHING at ANY TIME, so what makes you think it would work with firearms? For less than $10, I can make a 12-gauge sawed-off shotgun that will kill someone just as easily as a factory-made firearm, so unless you plan on banning indoor plumbing, criminals are ALWAYS going to get any and all guns they want. Your proposition is no different than someone saying "Hey, why don't we make heroin/alcohol/prostitution illegal, and that will stop the bad side effects of all these things?" It simply doesn't work that way in the real world.
 
Watching and reading. :)

I think the ''gun case'' has been more than satisfactorily answered, many times over. Reminds me of a real long thread from a year or so ago - and darned if I can find the link any more.

Same basic situation - attempting to educate the pacifist mind ... with the harsh realities of life. Violence resides within the human psyche and always will ... for most of us that is controlled and sublimated ... we regard ourselves as ''civilized''. The minority however, with violence on the mind, has little compunction all too often in taking a life.... and by so doing IMO rescinds its right to living on this small rock we call home.

I sure hope I never have to take a life but if it becomes ''him or me'' .. or ''him or my wife/kids'' ... there is NO choice. Pure and simple.

I am pro life too - my own and that of my nearest and dearest.
 
First of all, I would like to welcome you to The High Road and encourage you to stick around and learn what you can.

Let's step back a minute and think about what is happening when someone breaks into a persons home. The robber/rapist/murderer who is breaking in has made a CHOICE but the people who live in the home did not have a choice in the matter. People need to be held accountable for their own actions. If the consequence to breaking into someones home is being shot, then hopefully the person breaking in will think twice. Being a criminal is a high risk job and that is a good thing. The fact is, whether or not you own a gun, the good people who do are protecting you by creating a serious consequence for crime.
 
The NRA mag "America's 1st Freedom" had an article a couple years ago that took the "if we destroyed all firearms the world would be safe" argument apart. The gist was, you'd essentially have to uninvent so many technologies and inventions, we'd all be living in caves (and clubbing each other over the head with rocks, no doubt).
 
all you people you claim tasers in effective are wrong - i may be calling them the wrong name. A tazer fires two barbs into an attackers body from distances of up to 50 meters and is highly accurate (in many cases more so than a gun) the barbs then deliver a high voltage shock (some of the cheaper models deliver a weak shock that isn't enough to deter victems but the mid range models can paralyze for up to half an hour). maybe theyre not called tazers - u tell me
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What if there are multiple attackers?
 
Gun Control WILL reduce gun crimes... Here is how we do it. In cooperation with EVERY government in power we:

1. Confiscate firearms from all legal owners
2. Confiscate firearms from all criminals
3. Cease production of all arms and ammunition throughout the world
4. Through a campaign of "re-education" all knowledge of pyrotechnics, and metallurgy will be removed from Earth's populace
5. Wait 450 years for all firearms to degrade to an unusable state
6. Allow the Human race to be overtaken by damn dirty apes

As you can see, gun control can abolish all gun crime in just a little more than 450 years... let me ask, is there any time too long to wait for our children's benefit? :evil:
 
Money the bad guy can have. That I will agree with you on, if guy points a gun at me and saiys gimme your wallet, he gets it.
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Agreed. I wouldn't want to kill anyone over money or material possessions. However, this is pretty easy to say from the comfort of 21st Century America.

To veer slightly off-topic, I'm not sure where I heard this, but I tell my wife (and anyone who will listen) that if confronted with this situation, throw your wallet/purse as far as you can and immediately run in the other direction. The bad guy is likely to run for the cash and is also likely to miss you if he tries to shoot.

Back to topic: Rape is not "sex". A woman should try to get away from an armed attacker as described above or, better yet, be armed herself.

IMHO Rapists should be killed or worse. Preferably before they begin the attempted rape.
 
I think the point you are missing is that the criminal have no rights to do what they are doing in the first place. They have their right to life, as long as they don't violate my rights. Once THEY have made the choice to violate someone else's rights, they in turn give up any rights they have.

I was once somewhat like you. WITHOUT wanting to steer this thread offcourse into anything about war, I will say that it took me until a day in September 2001 to realize that the world is full of people that are nothing but evil. Now I was 15 at that point in time. At that time, I was like you. You don't need to kill someone, shoot them in the leg. If all they want is your posessions, it is not worth getting mad over. If they just want to rape you, you are not in danger, just sit back and let them.

But realizing that the world is full of evil people, I realized that those ideas don't work. The people comitting these crimes are not your friendly neighbor and her grumpy husband. They are people that live a life of crime. They have probably lost their right to stay safe and alive well before they got to me.

In short, what I am saying is that once they have made the choice of crime, they lost all respect from me.
 
Organisms that sustain themselves by taking sustanance from other organisms are parasites. Matters not what species they are....
 
"...reply in an intelligent manor..." I don't have an intelligent manor, I live in a trailer out in the woods.
Somebody was going to have to say it. ;)
 
I was trying to read ALL of the posts before posting, but they are being written faster than I can keep up.

First Vindi, you remind me of a saying an old man told me once. "If a young man is not a liberal, he has no heart. If an old man is not a conservative, he has no brain." Obviusly life's experience tends to change one's outlook on a lot of things. Most of us here have been through more of those experiences than you so our outlooks are a little different than yours. By raising questions now you show promise for the future. At this point in your life you are a product of an environment controlled by others. You think as they have taught you to think. Remember the line from the movie Men in Black "500 years ago we knew that the world was flat..." As you get out into the world your perspective will change, if you truely look and question.

Second you quoted your father "No man has the right to take the life of another human". Hopefully you respect your father, but that doesn't mean that what he said is always right. In this case what he said is in direct opposition with the civil law, the Biblical moral standard, and human intelect. The civil law does give everyone the right to take a life to preserve a life or prevent grevious bodily harm. This civil law was based on English Common Law which has it roots in the Bible. Human intelect also tells us that society is made up of all members of that society. But not all members contribute to making that society a better place, some are tearing that society down and need to be removed like a cancerous tumor, before it destroys all of the society.

The argument about whether a gun is a tool or a weapon is irrelevant. So is the argument about using less lethal weapons. Generally the good less lethal weapons are restricted to LEO use only and are not available to the public. Also, what makes them work better is that they are more powerfull and more likely to be lethal. Personnaly I will choose to defend hearth and home with the best tools I can obtain.

Best of luck coming to grips with the cold hard realities outside of the cocoon.
 
The crux of the argument...

numbers:

As quoted: "I'm going to have to agree with fire thorn - using lethal force to bring down someone in the middle of a killing spree would be the right thing to do to save lives. It would still be a tragedy to have to kill them (no matter what a human has done they do not deserve to die, i stick with this, NO MATTER WHAT THEY HAVE DONE THEY DONT DESERVE TO DIE) but it would be the right thing to do in the situation."

I would submit that the folks who fell victim in the first half of the killing spree would have been better off if the lethal force had been applied prior to their demise. I'm finding it difficult to get past the contridiction of "it being the right thing to do" and "THEY DONT DESERVE TO DIE" following in quick succession.

A direct question: How many folks would have to be killed in the killing spree before it would be the right thing to do? 20? 30?

You also stated you would be willing to take a beating to keep from having to kill another person. Would you also be willing to see a close family member be beaten? Please remember we're not talking about a split lip or a bloody nose, we're talking about being beaten to the point that they are impossible to recognize and will remain in an unresponsive coma for the next 20 years.

Another minor point: How do you suggest I go about defending my family since tasers (and stun guns) are illegal for ordinary citizens to own in my state (Hawaii)?

migoi
 
AS LONG AS ALL guns were destroyed and none were left. Then no robber could attack your family as effectivly and you would be able to defend equally.
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There's someplace we agree. I'm a soldier, and I carry a gun in my civilian life as well. I've always thought about how nice it would be if there really was no danger great enough that guns should be carried. I could put mine down, throw them in a river, or only take them out to go target shooting. Unfortuanately this is not the reality of the world in which we live.

Hence, out of responsibility to my family and those I care about, I protect them by the most efficient means possible: training and a good mind combined with a gun. The first two are the most important; the gun is simply a tool, albeit an efficient one, to accomplish the end of self-protection, and protection for those around me.

It's probably been said before, but in regards to less lethal forms of self defense, I point to another problem in America-drugs (which have been illegal for a long time, yet still do not go away...). I worked as a security officer in a hospital in the past, and for anyone who advocates less lethal means of defense, I encourage them to come and watch a crackhead tweak or a meth addict come down from a week-long high in which they had no sleep. The cops who bring them in assure me that pepper spray and tasers often serve to piss them off even more. Since many violent crimes are drug-involved, I'll stick with the most efficient means of protection.

I don't care who the perpetrator is, if it's a choice of passive resistance or killing in self-defense or defense of those I love, I'll send flowers.

Edited to add the following:

tools are designed to do certain things

hammers are designed to put nails in wood
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In the last 6 months, there have been three murders in my city. Two were carried out with hammers, and one with a hatchet. All were drug related.
 
Vindi, welcome to the board. What an entrance you made ;)

Pretty much all the points have been made in response to your statements. The only thing I can think of to respond with now is that your suggestions and thoughts, while noble, are idealistic and "in a perfect world...". Well, I hate to break it to you, but we don't live in a perfect world.

I encourage you to watch the evening local news, watch the national news, watch the world news. Watch TV, read the newpapers. What you see is what goes on in real life. No it isn't always nicey nice, no situations don't go like you think. As you mature, your views on issues will change. I remember when I was 15 and what I thought about things. I remember when I was 20 and thought about things. Now I'm 25 and I still think about things. Hmm, a lot of thinking going on :scrutiny: Not only must you go by your convictions, you have to deal with the convictions and thoughts of others. As you'll find, many many people will disagree with the things you strongly believe in. And that's fine. But when actions take place, you better hope that everything you told yourself to be true, is, or else you'll be in a world of hurt and unprepared to handle what is coming.

I was raised on guns. Dad always had his shotguns and rifles ready for anything at the house. I remember he'd take care of stray animals attacking our pets. He'd go out and investigate around the house because that vehicle kept stopping at the dead end at our street, or stopping in front of our house. I remember going out to the farm and shooting cans with the .22s. I remember going hunting with the .308s. I remember plinking the lemons that feel off the tree with our BB guns in the back yard. I now buy pistols of my own. I still shoot targets and such in the backyard with my BB guns. I still plink targets at the rage with my .22s. I enjoy taking my pistols to the range and tear up silouhettes and bullseyes. And I carry my pistol ready to defend myself should an attacker think I'm an easy target. My guns, as well as everybody elses here are used for fun and recreation, as well as defense. Everybody in here hopes to the Higher that they never see they day that they do have to fight for their lives or the lives of their wife or husband or daughters or sons. We do not think that killing someone is easy just because we have guns. We don't walk around wanting to kill people. We do KNOW that we WILL defend ours IF it ever came down to it, and it could result in death. Is it pretty or nice? No, but in order to survive or do what is necessary, we will. And if it involves a gun, then it does. If it involves a knife, so it does. If it involves martial arts, so it does.

Ok, I seem to have lost my point. I'm going to go eat lunch. Carry on :cool:
 
First, welcome to THR. I hope that you stay around for many years, enjoy the conversation, and maybe we can teach you a few things and you can teach us a few things.

On your first posting however, I don't think you are teaching anyone here much. We have all seen and heard your arguments over and over again, and we have found them wanting. They emerge out of either youth and inexperience (such as in your case) or from willfull ignorance, people "wishing" things are a certain way so hard that they convince themselves that it is so.

Please read my article with an open mind and reply in an intelligent manor so we can have a discussion. Swearing at me and immediately dismissing my theories isn't going to convert me over to your beliefs.
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please read this through and post some intelligent responses.
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You came in here with a chip on your shoulder, and have been greeted warmly and politely (well, a couple have called you a troll, but that is to be expected!). Think about the fact that the people here, who almost all believe in armed self-defense, greet someone like you with hospitality. Perhaps our beliefs and way of thinking have at least some worth if they allow us to have civilized discussions with people that come to us with what appears to be at least some bias against our beliefs.

Finally
No man has the right to take the life of another human"
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Poppycock and nonsense. Of course, in certain situations, I have the RIGHT and indeed the DUTY (in some cases) to take another human life. Many of the reasons have been explained to you here on this thread, so I won't repeat them. Once you have come to grips with this sad, harsh reality, you will see that arguing about whether guns "are made to kill" and use of less than lethal weapons, while interesting, is completely beside the important point.

Your pacifistic philosophy, while completely understandable in a 15 y.o., is a fantasy and a fraud. If you live long enough, you will, through further thought and experience, understand this. I just hope you last long enough!
 
VIndi C,

My older brother (a philosophy professor of all things!) used to think along the lines that you presented in your OP.

I gave him this example. (I apologize in advance if this is too graphic)

We love our mother very much. We have fond memories of her and her love and sensitivity going all the way back to our earliest childhood memories. She has always been a good mom, wife, grandmother, member of her church, daughter... everything a woman should be.

One day a bad man breaks into our house. My dad is at work, my brothers and I are at school. The man corners my mother in the kitchen where she is startled and has no means to protect herself. He calls her vile filthy names. Words that we don't use in our house. He explains in graphic detail what he is about to do to her. He forces her at knifepoint to undress. He proceeds to brutally rape our poor mother and cut her face until she is half dead from loss of blood. All her teeth are smashed out. One eye is half out of the socket and her skull is broken open. The damage to her body is almost impossible to imagine.

Her finishes up by kicking her one last time in the face and then proceeds to trash the house and leave.

My youngest brother finds her, naked, barely breathing, almost dead. He is traumatized forever. My father is traumatized forever. My mother is a partially paralyzed and can't see out of her right eye (the one that was knocked out of the socket). The warmth and spark that she used to have is forever extinguished as she can't get the experience out of her head.

Are you telling me that you honestly think that it would be wrong to stop something like this from happening by using a handgun to stop the intruder before any of this could have happened?

If it were your OWN mother, would you feel so warm and fuzzy about your fellow man.

Be honest with us and yourself. If you are saying that even in this example, you still find it wrong to take the life of someone to stop something like this from happening, you are something quite less than human.

I think this has all been a fairly civil discussion, but if you look at the horror that people are capable of inflicting on others, to think that their life is just as important and valuable as an innocent, you have much to learn grasshopper. Human life is precious. Innocent people deserve to have theirs be long and healthy by any means necessary.



NQ
 
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Vindi.. before making recommendations such as tasers, martial arts, so forth and so on.. please realize you're not talking to your high school peers. I don't mean it as a slam -- it's the simple truth.

On this board there are police officers who carry weapons both lethal and non-lethal most every day. There are soldiers who use or have used weapons of all varieties in honest to God combat. And there are more than a few Just Regular Folks who in the course of their lives have actually had a violent confrontation, and had to sort it out. Some had firearms, some didn't. Some folks have their entire worldview change in an eyeblink (and that's not something I wish on you!).

Almost all of us have had some degree of formal instruction on both the technical use and legal ramifications of using a firearm in a self-defense -- it's a requirement for a CCW license, which at least among those of us in cooperative states is the rule rather than the exception.

Further, our experience with firearms comes from actually using them, not from reading magazines in the grocery store or playing FPS video games. I'm just a tinkerer and hobbyist, not near the stature of many on these boards, and I've still been inside the guts of many modern small arms civilian and military, have a good understanding of their strengths and weaknesses, and can handle them competently, if not as expertly as many here.

What this boils down to.. you're talking to people who by and large know more than you do on this topic. It would be wise to listen before speechifying. (Come to think of it, that's a good lesson in day-to-day living to. Take it from someone who used to be 15 once upon a time. ;) )

-K
 
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