JRH6856
Member
I like my .25. It's accurate out to maybe 20 feet, but I can't throw it much farther with any accuracy. Arm isn't what it used to be.
Reality vs Fantasy: the case for .22 Carry
- Thread starter slicer22
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I like my .25. It's accurate out to maybe 20 feet, but I can't throw it much farther with any accuracy. Arm isn't what it used to be.
Strykervet
member
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2010
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"The only thing missing from the PT-22 is a laser. I considered the fine Bersa Thunder .22, but it's a bit large for a pocket. The key is easy access. Credible deterrent."
Dude, just get the laser and call it good then.
Unless you have arthritis REALLY bad or are otherwise incapacitated, the .22 is about the worst choice you can make for defense. If you want super light and compact, then get that (overpriced) titanium .45 derringer. It probably weighs less too.
I've seen a guy take a .25 point blank to the temple. Took out both eyes, he's blind for life, but he didn't go down until I took him down to stop the bleeding, to try anyway. Had it hit the skull, I strongly believe it would have bounced off, and I'm not kidding. This bullet HIT the brain, but it couldn't penetrate the membrane around it. He has a burn mark there inside, and no sinuses and one eye is glass, but his noggin is intact. Had he taken it anywhere else save a direct hit to the heart (no bone mind you!) he probably wouldn't have even sought medical attention.
Then there is that guy in CA that took five shots, .38spcl? from just a few feet away. All hits, none put him down. And he was on the defense, scared as hell, that much was obvious.
I like .22's. For the range, maybe for small game, but that is it. I'd like a suppressed one, but just for quiet coke can shooting fun in the back yard.
Dude, just get the laser and call it good then.
Unless you have arthritis REALLY bad or are otherwise incapacitated, the .22 is about the worst choice you can make for defense. If you want super light and compact, then get that (overpriced) titanium .45 derringer. It probably weighs less too.
I've seen a guy take a .25 point blank to the temple. Took out both eyes, he's blind for life, but he didn't go down until I took him down to stop the bleeding, to try anyway. Had it hit the skull, I strongly believe it would have bounced off, and I'm not kidding. This bullet HIT the brain, but it couldn't penetrate the membrane around it. He has a burn mark there inside, and no sinuses and one eye is glass, but his noggin is intact. Had he taken it anywhere else save a direct hit to the heart (no bone mind you!) he probably wouldn't have even sought medical attention.
Then there is that guy in CA that took five shots, .38spcl? from just a few feet away. All hits, none put him down. And he was on the defense, scared as hell, that much was obvious.
I like .22's. For the range, maybe for small game, but that is it. I'd like a suppressed one, but just for quiet coke can shooting fun in the back yard.
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PT92
Member
I am not a caliber-centric person nor am I a physicist. That being said, I think size does matter in almost every aspect of life. Say two vehicles are both traveling at 15mph, one an F150 the other a Prius--which one would you rather walk in front of (obviously a hpothetical)? Likewise, you have to stand in front of someone throwing a stone at your torso from 10ft away--one rock wieghs 3oz and the other weighs 6oz. Which one do you want to get hit by? Say a woman meets a guy in a bar...oops, I veered off
I understand the aforementioned is oversimplified conjecture and unscientific (at best) but I think the same applies to ballistics. Would I rather get hit by a .22lr or a 9mm? Well neither but if I had to choose I would go for the .22lr (knowing very well that both could send me to meet my maker).
-Cheers
I understand the aforementioned is oversimplified conjecture and unscientific (at best) but I think the same applies to ballistics. Would I rather get hit by a .22lr or a 9mm? Well neither but if I had to choose I would go for the .22lr (knowing very well that both could send me to meet my maker).
-Cheers
Sevenfaces
Member
I don't carry my gun for "Deterrence". If I am in a situation where my gun is drawn, its because I am absolutely positive if I don't use it, I or someone else I care about will be killed, or seriously injured.
If I need deterrence, I've already screwed up by not escaping a potentially hostile situation. You can't always anticipate such things however, and in that case its best to use your wits to get out of the area, rather than brandishing your weapon.
I do everything I can to avoid further escalation of a hostile situation, and short of facing the threat of immediately being attacked, I will try and retreat instead of standing my ground, even when the law says I don't have to.
As far as whats best to carry, I really think in a legitimate self defense situation, where lethal force is necessary, a .22 just isn't going to cut it.
There is several instances of people being killed by a .22, even in a single shot, but there is also several instances of people not only being shot by much larger calibers several times, but still attacking and wounding the individual who shot them. Your gun isn't going to do you much good if the assailant ends up shooting or stabbing you, even if you've mortally wounded them.
I'm not going to advocate which round is best, but I suggest you find the best gun, in the best caliber you're comfortable with carrying, drawing, and accurately shooting with. Anything less is not acceptable, IMO.
I personally carry a G30 with a IWB crossbreed on the crest of my Left hip (im left handed) for me, the size/weight of the gun, its construction (polymer and epoxy coated steel) and the caliber all fit my needs. The holster also meets my needs.
If I need deterrence, I've already screwed up by not escaping a potentially hostile situation. You can't always anticipate such things however, and in that case its best to use your wits to get out of the area, rather than brandishing your weapon.
I do everything I can to avoid further escalation of a hostile situation, and short of facing the threat of immediately being attacked, I will try and retreat instead of standing my ground, even when the law says I don't have to.
As far as whats best to carry, I really think in a legitimate self defense situation, where lethal force is necessary, a .22 just isn't going to cut it.
There is several instances of people being killed by a .22, even in a single shot, but there is also several instances of people not only being shot by much larger calibers several times, but still attacking and wounding the individual who shot them. Your gun isn't going to do you much good if the assailant ends up shooting or stabbing you, even if you've mortally wounded them.
I'm not going to advocate which round is best, but I suggest you find the best gun, in the best caliber you're comfortable with carrying, drawing, and accurately shooting with. Anything less is not acceptable, IMO.
I personally carry a G30 with a IWB crossbreed on the crest of my Left hip (im left handed) for me, the size/weight of the gun, its construction (polymer and epoxy coated steel) and the caliber all fit my needs. The holster also meets my needs.
PT92
Member
I have both the PT model and the Beretta 21. You would need to tip open the barrel to reload the Taurus. On the Beretta either way will work (21A is easily rackable)..
-Cheers
PT92
Member
Not empirical but subjective. I would preface such a statement simply with a IMO but that's just me...
-Cheers
Mainsail
Member
MicroTecniqs said:
So you're saying that in some jurisdictions you can only shoot when you're being shot at? What jurisdiction would that be? Or are you of the foolish assumption that only a firearm is a lethal threat?
coolluke01
Member
I think you need to read his post a few more times. He said things like "only when faced with lethal force." and "not unusual for the assailant... instead, to be shooting."
Certaindeaf
member
I saw on the internet about one thousand times "The .22 Won't Save You!". I think.
I think they were pimping the Jesus or something.
I think they were pimping the Jesus or something.
mljdeckard
Member
I suppose this makes me some kind of fool, I've been carrying a full-size, all steel 1911 year-round, including 100+ degree summers, for over ten years. I load for it and shoot it every month.
Folks, this is a lifestyle. Not an accessory. Adjust your lifestyle and wardrobe to fit the gun you shoot best. Don't compromise on the gun you shoot best to be able to dress more comfortably. OR, IF YOU DO, don't adjust it all the way to the bottom of the effectiveness scale. There are a lot of options between a full-size 1911 and a pot-metal .25.
Folks, this is a lifestyle. Not an accessory. Adjust your lifestyle and wardrobe to fit the gun you shoot best. Don't compromise on the gun you shoot best to be able to dress more comfortably. OR, IF YOU DO, don't adjust it all the way to the bottom of the effectiveness scale. There are a lot of options between a full-size 1911 and a pot-metal .25.
I've shot mine accurately out to 50 yards, I'd try the 100 yard mark but it's rifles only.
JRH6856
Member
No, I did not say that. Please read my post again. There are several forms of lethal force. Shooting is one of them and I said it would not be unusual for someone to be shooting. Nor did I say shooting a firearm. They could be using a bow and arrow or a crossbow.
FWIW, in a recent thread here on THR, a member from Arkansas claimed that (in Arkansas, at least), if an assailant just wanted to fist fight, you could not counter the threat by threatening the assailant with a gun no matter how big he was or how much you didn't want to fight. You just had to fight him and take your medicine. (I don't know if that is actually the case or not as I don't live in Arkansas).
JRH6856
Member
I got my .25 from a friend who found it in an AC duct in his house. No telling how long it had been there. It is a no-name Spanish pocket pistol. I cleaned it up and took it to the range and ran a half a box of ammo through it with no malfunctions. Except there were no holes in a full size silhouette at 7 yards (shortest range available). I tried holding off target on all sides for the rest of the box and still don't know where the bullets went. Runs great though.
inthedark
Member
Slicer, the best advice that I can give you is to speak to a local deputy and find a good firearms instructor and get your ignorant self educated. It would be a real shame for your family and friends to have to bury you or worst yet visit you in a palliative care facility, not to mention the other members on this forum. You have left no doubt in anyone's mind that you are young, inexperienced or both. Whomever told you that a .22 cal handgun was a deterent and that its mere presence serves that purpose is an idiot! You, my friend are in dire need of being told. I am not trying to berate you but I don't want your lack of training and skill and present knowledge to get you hurt or killed. Just so you know where this is coming from, I am a retired LEO and Infantryman 24ID (RDF)
Chimo
ITD
Chimo
ITD
Slicer22, here is the funny thing. In many juridictions, brandishing is illegal. If a belligerent drunk gets in your face, and you draw, you might be going to jail. That's no joke. Now if you draw in the face of death or serious bodily harm, regardless if you end up shooting or not, you will probably be deemed justified. The law is a funny thing.
As for pocket carry, try this little test. Stick a fat wallet in your front pocket where you normally pocket carry. Then invite a good friend over for dinner. Place a bowl of mashed potatoes in front of him, and tell him that sometime during the dinner, you want him to stand up, take a handful of mashed potatoes and throw it at you. Tell him to continue until you manage to draw out your wallet and show it to him. This will show you how fast you can draw under stress.
As for low risk areas, they don't exist. Your own home should be your area of lowest risk, yet home invasions occur in all neighborhoods. College campuses, post offices, government offices, airports, sporting events, schools, have also traditionally been low risk areas.
Just more stuff to think about.
PT92, I'd choose the F-150. It's got pretty good ground clearance, and I might stand a chance of ducking underneath it.
As for pocket carry, try this little test. Stick a fat wallet in your front pocket where you normally pocket carry. Then invite a good friend over for dinner. Place a bowl of mashed potatoes in front of him, and tell him that sometime during the dinner, you want him to stand up, take a handful of mashed potatoes and throw it at you. Tell him to continue until you manage to draw out your wallet and show it to him. This will show you how fast you can draw under stress.
As for low risk areas, they don't exist. Your own home should be your area of lowest risk, yet home invasions occur in all neighborhoods. College campuses, post offices, government offices, airports, sporting events, schools, have also traditionally been low risk areas.
Just more stuff to think about.
PT92, I'd choose the F-150. It's got pretty good ground clearance, and I might stand a chance of ducking underneath it.
Marlin60Man
Member
Why do people think all the anecdotes about seeing someone getting shot with a .22 and not dying or something like that actually hold any water? A couple of years back, there was an elderly couple that were shot in bed. The attacker shot them each 7-8 times in the head with a 9mm pistol, according to the news article. Apparently they survived. I remember hearing another story, a woman was shot in the back of the head point blank with a.380... The slug hit her hair clip and bounced outside of her scalp, just leaving a nasty flesh wound and skull fracture. Firearms are always unpredictable.
I can't count how many similar stories I've heard about 9MM when someone is trying to argue .45 ACP or .357 Magnum. I think the basic truth that can be gathered form this is people don't all react the same way to being shot, it does not really point out anything with the calibers.
I just think the most obvious way to look at it is this: It's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. Not a new phrase... But think about it when you're thinking about selecting what caliber you want and it makes so much more sense why .22 LR should be on the bottom end of the totem pole for your choice. If it was all I could afford or all I could handle the recoil of or something like that, I would depend on it without question--but if you can afford to get more, then get more. Pretty much no good reason to limit yourself to .22 when it comes to defending your life.
I can't count how many similar stories I've heard about 9MM when someone is trying to argue .45 ACP or .357 Magnum. I think the basic truth that can be gathered form this is people don't all react the same way to being shot, it does not really point out anything with the calibers.
I just think the most obvious way to look at it is this: It's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. Not a new phrase... But think about it when you're thinking about selecting what caliber you want and it makes so much more sense why .22 LR should be on the bottom end of the totem pole for your choice. If it was all I could afford or all I could handle the recoil of or something like that, I would depend on it without question--but if you can afford to get more, then get more. Pretty much no good reason to limit yourself to .22 when it comes to defending your life.
mljdeckard
Member
Why do people think that All the anecdotes about someone getting hit once with a .22 and falling over dead immediately actually hold water?
ALL handgun bullets suck. Most victims who are hit with ANY handgun bullet ONCE will RUN AWAY. In dropping to to these very small ones, it's like saying; "Well, I can just get a cheap fire extinguisher, because if a fire ever does actually break out, it's not like I really have a chance of putting the fire out. ALL of my lifesaving gear can be be the cheapest, easiest, lightest examples I can find, because when it REALLY counts, and I'm trying to not get killed, it really doesn't matter WHICH tool I have, as long as I have one. This is really the kind of item it's ok to cut corners on, because it really doesn't matter.
It's your keyster, do what you want.
The .22 SHOULD be on the bottom of the totem pole.
ALL handgun bullets suck. Most victims who are hit with ANY handgun bullet ONCE will RUN AWAY. In dropping to to these very small ones, it's like saying; "Well, I can just get a cheap fire extinguisher, because if a fire ever does actually break out, it's not like I really have a chance of putting the fire out. ALL of my lifesaving gear can be be the cheapest, easiest, lightest examples I can find, because when it REALLY counts, and I'm trying to not get killed, it really doesn't matter WHICH tool I have, as long as I have one. This is really the kind of item it's ok to cut corners on, because it really doesn't matter.
It's your keyster, do what you want.
The .22 SHOULD be on the bottom of the totem pole.
clarifications & such
Once again, I want to thank everyone especially who offered constructive criticisms and advice. I intend to keep shooting, and learning. One has to start somewhere and I suppose my original post was pretty brash. As noted I was hoping to draw some opinion fire with it. I do have some hypothetical scenarios I'd like to present for comment:
1. At my music rehearsal space in Houston recently the foot traffic has gotten increasingly iffy. A friend was in a very tense situation, basically surrounded by 2 or 3 dudes getting very inquisitive. He felt sure he was going to be rolled, or worse, when someone else luckily came around the corner and he was able to get away. I also have had some late night dubious encounters.
2. The locale around my business has declined and crime is on the rise. I worry about a close-of-day appearance by armed thugs. I have cop pagers at my biz but it takes them 5-10 mins to respond. I'd give the thugs any cash but one never knows if they might just walk us in back and execute us for fun/to stop i.d, or just start shooting for fun.
It is illegal to brandish in Texas I believe (haven't got the license yet but I'm pretty sure), but I don't want a fistfight, nor to risk getting held up, then shot anyway. Thus my idea of having a weapon on hand to equalize---one hopes, at least it's a chance. The rimfire-reliability rebuttal is strong and I'm considering upgrading, but if anyone has any advice, context, or ideas about how to deal with the type of scenarios above, either regarding CCW, or other approaches to security that don't involve my ideas of "equalization" and deterrence, I'd appreciate hearing them.
Once again, I want to thank everyone especially who offered constructive criticisms and advice. I intend to keep shooting, and learning. One has to start somewhere and I suppose my original post was pretty brash. As noted I was hoping to draw some opinion fire with it. I do have some hypothetical scenarios I'd like to present for comment:
1. At my music rehearsal space in Houston recently the foot traffic has gotten increasingly iffy. A friend was in a very tense situation, basically surrounded by 2 or 3 dudes getting very inquisitive. He felt sure he was going to be rolled, or worse, when someone else luckily came around the corner and he was able to get away. I also have had some late night dubious encounters.
2. The locale around my business has declined and crime is on the rise. I worry about a close-of-day appearance by armed thugs. I have cop pagers at my biz but it takes them 5-10 mins to respond. I'd give the thugs any cash but one never knows if they might just walk us in back and execute us for fun/to stop i.d, or just start shooting for fun.
It is illegal to brandish in Texas I believe (haven't got the license yet but I'm pretty sure), but I don't want a fistfight, nor to risk getting held up, then shot anyway. Thus my idea of having a weapon on hand to equalize---one hopes, at least it's a chance. The rimfire-reliability rebuttal is strong and I'm considering upgrading, but if anyone has any advice, context, or ideas about how to deal with the type of scenarios above, either regarding CCW, or other approaches to security that don't involve my ideas of "equalization" and deterrence, I'd appreciate hearing them.
oldfool
Member
slicer
You seriously need a lot more time learning the laws concerning the (real and/or implied) use of deadly force, and the likelihood of what criminal and/or civil lawyers will cost you even if you are in a justifiable scenario.
You need a lot more understanding of all that before you get serious about CCW of any caliber. Some here have tried to point that out to you. If you don't take that seriously, be prepared to take long showers and spend quality time up close and personal with your new behind bars roommate Bubba-the-felon.
(a carry gun is not an equalizer, never was; it is only the option of last resort)
You seriously need a lot more time learning the laws concerning the (real and/or implied) use of deadly force, and the likelihood of what criminal and/or civil lawyers will cost you even if you are in a justifiable scenario.
You need a lot more understanding of all that before you get serious about CCW of any caliber. Some here have tried to point that out to you. If you don't take that seriously, be prepared to take long showers and spend quality time up close and personal with your new behind bars roommate Bubba-the-felon.
(a carry gun is not an equalizer, never was; it is only the option of last resort)
*NOVA*
Member
+1
Last Resort. Draw your weapon knowing that you'll need to justify it court.
Your brain being trained for situational awareness and possible escape routes will serve you better than any weapon in removing you from harm's way.
A defensive driver tries to anticipate what the other drivers will do next. The defensive driver looks for routes to avoid collisions and pulls over to let aggressive drivers pass them. Its all about identifying possibly dangerous situations and taking action to avoid or mitigate the danger.
Avoid confrontation. Does that back alley have blind spots not visible from the main road? Get the idea? The point of carrying a weapon is having something to defend yourself with, to stop the threat and improve your odds of surviving a violent confrontation, but it is only part of an overall philosophy of doing everything you can to avoid being in a dangerous situation to begin with.
JRH6856
Member
Yes, but.,, unlike some states, Texas law does not consider the threat of deadly force to be a use of deadly force. In Texas, the threat of deadly force is considered a use of force (not deadly force) and it is legal to counter an unlawful use of force with force. So if assaulted by someone using their fists, you can (theoretically) threaten the use of deadly force to stop the assault, but you can't actually use deadly force (shoot) unless you are in fear for your life or of serious injury.
The gray area is that once you have pointed a gun and thus threatened deadly force, if the assault does not stop, you may be pretty sure that the assailant is going to take your gun and use it against you. That means you are in fear for your life and shooting is justified. At least theoretically. I don't know if this has actually been tested in court. Maybe someone else who is familiar with Texas case law does.
NinjaFeint
Member
I am not saying this couldn't happen but it sounds a little more like something from Robocop than reality.
My advice would be to take some pistol safety and CCW classes, spend some good time on the range and familiarize yourself with your local laws. I believe is not good enough.
It is. IMO, the only real case for .22 as a self defense weapon can be made when the gun is so small it would be physically difficult or even impossible to chamber it in a larger caliber. Any gun is better than no gun at all, but when you have a choice, upping the ante with some stopping power is a good idea.
I've carried my P22, which doesn't fall in ultracompact category, but the next smallest handgun I have is a HK P7, which is decisively heavier. In situations where size and weight aren't that much of a concern, a nice custom double stack 10mm with full power loads is my choice, but unfortunately that isn't an easy gun to carry discreetly.
In other words, no shirt or no shoes may mean no service, but leaving home naked may get you in trouble.
Cosmoline
Member
Extremely small mouse guns do have a place. Specifically they are the best for deep concealment with minimal covering clothing. And in some cases that's all you can realistically carry. They are also useful as backup guns.
But the .22 LR, being an archaic rimfire, is far too prone to misfires to ever be used as a last ditch defensive firearm. The round is of course weak as well, esp. out of a handgun. The .25 ACP is more reliable but I'd say if you really need an ultra-small mouse gun look for one in .32 ACP at the minimum.
But the .22 LR, being an archaic rimfire, is far too prone to misfires to ever be used as a last ditch defensive firearm. The round is of course weak as well, esp. out of a handgun. The .25 ACP is more reliable but I'd say if you really need an ultra-small mouse gun look for one in .32 ACP at the minimum.
slicer22 said:
If you're in a dicey situation as you describe, then it sounds like you're much better off with a 38 snub. When the situation arises where you'll need to protect yourself, the little 22 might work, but then again, it could well be less weapon than you'll need. The 38 has a long track record of performing well.
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