Reality vs Fantasy: the case for .22 Carry

[theicemanmpls]

Invariably and for whatever reason, it's the 'caliber wars' all over again. Whoever said that guys are not obsessed with the old 'size-matters' deal needs to comb through the thousands of 'my bigger gun' is better than yours like threads.

It's simple for me, I say carry the biggest caliber of which you are expert-like with and call it a day. If you can both adequately conceal and shoot a snub .41 magnum, more power to you. Likewise to me with the Bobcat 21. To each his own and no reason to blow a gasket (but it always happens and always will).

-Cheers

Back in the day, I qualified expert with a WWII built old slab sides government issued 1911 with terrible sights. Would I carry one today? Yes, if I were going in harms way.

Now that I retired from work, I hopefully will never have to go in "harms way".

I say, carry what ever the hell you want.

Today, at the Mall of America, I carried my 21A. There are signs prohibiting carry, but here, the law has well known carry permit loop holes. There were several groups of "urban youth" who were clearly looking for drama. The Security force there does a fine job in keeping incidents to a minimum.

I go out of my way to avoid confrontations.

As stated before, I practice monthly. I don't reload .380, or .32. Perhaps I should? I am very confident, I can and will put rounds on a target where they will neutralize an attack long enough for me and loved one to make an escape.

 

[PT92]

Back in the day, I qualified expert with a WWII built old slab sides government issued 1911 with terrible sights. Would I carry one today? Yes, if I were going in harms way.

Now that I retired from work, I hopefully will never have to go in "harms way".

I say, carry what ever the hell you want.

Today, at the Mall of America, I carried my 21A. There are signs prohibiting carry, but here, the law has well known carry permit loop holes. There were several groups of "urban youth" who were clearly looking for drama. The Security force there does a fine job in keeping incidents to a minimum.

I go out of my way to avoid confrontations.

As stated before, I practice monthly. I don't reload .380, or .32. Perhaps I should? I am very confident, I can and will put rounds on a target where they will neutralize an attack long enough for me and loved one to make an escape.

Nice post iceman--It's the same in MO. whereby if a place like, for example, the mall is posted you can carry but if they somehow spot you, they can ask you to leave--If you choose not to (and in the 10 years we have had the CCW Law in The Show Me State no one has) the cops can issue a citation.

-Cheers

 

[mavracer]

I say, carry what ever the hell you want.

I agree, but it would be good to know the realistic capabilitys of what your carrying.

 

[PT92]

I agree, but it would be good to know the realistic capabilitys of what your carrying.

Mav, I gotta think most people are aware that their small bore is in some way 'inferior' to say that 'bigger' bore the neighbor or the like may or may not have (and that's assuming they are of a 'novice' level). However, there are likewise quite a few 'gun' people I know of that carry a pocket-pistol by choice due to a diversity of factors ranging from climate to attire to etc...

Point is, the only time I would think advice would come into play would be for a noob that is perhaps considering their first gun for sd/hd. This thread seems to contain some degree (certainly not categorical) of condescension whereby those choosing to carry a small-caliber guns are ridiculed for such (kinda rubs some people the wrong way if you will).

-Cheers

 

[JRH6856]

If the Q&A between buyers and sellers I overheard at the gunshow today is any indication, there are more than a few people out there that have no idea of the capabilities of what they are buying (or selling). I can only hope they aren't carrying.

 

[PT92]

If the Q&A between buyers and sellers I overheard at the gunshow today is any indication, there are more than a few people out there that have no idea of the capabilities of what they are buying (or selling). I can only hope they aren't carrying.

Agreed--Owning a firearm absent knowledge of basic fundamentals is simply ill-advised on all levels (at least CCW Licensing requires classes etc.). That brings me back to my aforementioned point of "noobs" and caliber-like matters.

-Cheers

 

[snakeman]

^^^^^ I realize that not everyone is the same, I was simply making a joke. I also realize that sometimes it's hard to differentiate emotions through text so I understand that you could misunderstand my joke. I know people who carry 22s and people who carry 40s and neither one of them is wrong for doing so. You carry what you are proficient with.

 

[theicemanmpls]

Mav, I gotta think most people are aware that their small bore is in some way 'inferior' to say that 'bigger' bore the neighbor or the like may or may not have (and that's assuming they are of a 'novice' level). However, there are likewise quite a few 'gun' people I know of that carry a pocket-pistol by choice due to a diversity of factors ranging from climate to attire to etc...

Point is, the only time I would think advice would come into play would be for a noob that is perhaps considering their first gun for sd/hd. This thread seems to contain some degree (certainly not categorical) of condescension whereby those choosing to carry a small-caliber guns are ridiculed for such (kinda rubs some people the wrong way if you will).

-Cheers

Marketing professionals make a handsome living catering to the male ego.

Some men take stock in having BIG things. Big trucks, houses, boats, motorcycles, and firearms. Some even customize their toys by making them louder, brighter, and more noticeable. Perhaps they think it will impress the ladies. Maybe they will "get lucky".

Sex sells.

Perhaps these men are trying to compensate for lack of size of their manhood. Maybe the old stallion just don't have the git up and go it used to. The mind set is owning something big will make the old General stand up and salute like he used to.

"Gotta have that that F-350 dully to pull the duck boat." "I just spent a housepayment on a pistol I will never carry, because it is imposible to conceal."

I have seen more then a few people here claim to carry very large, and very heavy, powerful pistols. Some who reside in humid and hot climates. How they ever conceal a full size 1911, or a 4" 686 defies logic. The whole idea of CCW is not to be "outed"

Don't get me started about OC. Another time perhaps.

Some of the same people say carry the largest gun you can shoot.

Does anyone know why large caliber firearms cost lots more then medium or small calibers? Not that much more metal is used. 9mm vs 40 cal? same design. Yet, the .40 costs at least 20% more. My guess is the companies ask for it, because they know they can get it.

Some gun store salesmen should be tarred and feathered. I over heard this at a national chain. I observed a sales clerk try to sell a widow a .40 cal Glock for HD. He said, "only use a gun thats starts in 4 for self defense" " Anything less won't work" This woman had never shot a firearm in her life. I wanted to put a boot in his buttocks. I interrupted the sales pitch. I told the woman to go a good shop 10 miles away and tell the owner her situation. I know she was going to be in good hands.

Maybe they read the articles by the gun writers in the glossy rags at the supermarket. The writers must be experts. Right?
I am not trying to bad mouth the writers. They provide a wealth of information we mortals would never see without them. They provide entertainment. However, like any other profession, it does have it's dark side.

Does anyone know how these writers make a living? Do they collect funds from firearm and ammo compaines? My guess, is, they have to.

I have seen glowing reviews in the NRA as well as online rags about well known POS guns.

Before the internet, I would often pickup a glossy rag. These boys were spreading the internet rumors back then.

Here, let me say it loud and clear.

BIGGER IS NOT BETTER.

CARRY WHAT EVER THE HELL YOU WANT. IT's YOUR ASS.

 

[Carl Levitian]

[Marketing professionals make a handsome living catering to the male ego.

Some men take stock in having BIG things. Big trucks, houses, boats, motorcycles, and firearms. Some even customize their toys by making them louder, brighter, and more noticeable. Perhaps they think it will impress the ladies. Maybe they will "get lucky".

Sex sells.

Perhaps these men are trying to compensate for lack of size of their manhood. Maybe the old stallion just don't have the git up and go it used to. The mind set is owning something big will make the old General stand up and salute like he used to.

"Gotta have that that F-350 dully to pull the duck boat." "I just spent a housepayment on a pistol I will never carry, because it is imposible to conceal."

I have seen more then a few people here claim to carry very large, and very heavy, powerful pistols. Some who reside in humid and hot climates. How they ever conceal a full size 1911, or a 4" 686 defies logic. The whole idea of CCW is not to be "outed"

Don't get me started about OC. Another time perhaps.

Some of the same people say carry the largest gun you can shoot.

Does anyone know why large caliber firearms cost lots more then medium or small calibers? Not that much more metal is used. 9mm vs 40 cal? same design. Yet, the .40 costs at least 20% more. My guess is the companies ask for it, because they know they can get it.

Some gun store salesmen should be tarred and feathered. I over heard this at a national chain. I observed a sales clerk try to sell a widow a .40 cal Glock for HD. He said, "only use a gun thats starts in 4 for self defense" " Anything less won't work" This woman had never shot a firearm in her life. I wanted to put a boot in his buttocks. I interrupted the sales pitch. I told the woman to go a good shop 10 miles away and tell the owner her situation. I know she was going to be in good hands.

Maybe they read the articles by the gun writers in the glossy rags at the supermarket. The writers must be experts. Right?
I am not trying to bad mouth the writers. They provide a wealth of information we mortals would never see without them. They provide entertainment. However, like any other profession, it does have it's dark side.

Does anyone know how these writers make a living? Do they collect funds from firearm and ammo compaines? My guess, is, they have to.

I have seen glowing reviews in the NRA as well as online rags about well known POS guns.

Before the internet, I would often pickup a glossy rag. These boys were spreading the internet rumors back then.

Here, let me say it loud and clear.

BIGGER IS NOT BETTER.

CARRY WHAT EVER THE HELL YOU WANT. IT's YOUR ASS.]

Finally after too many pages, a totally frank honest, and refreshing look at reality. Iceman, if you were closer I'd buy the beers.

Carl.

 

[PT92]

...Here, let me say it loud and clear.

BIGGER IS NOT BETTER.

CARRY WHAT EVER THE HELL YOU WANT. IT's YOUR ASS.

Those MN. folks always 'beat around the bush'...Must be that cold weather...

-Cheers

 

[dallanta]

I am new to this forum. A lot of years in the military and new to carrying in the states here. One thing I learned long ago though. If you have to shoot, you have to be mentally prepared for the action, and you better shoot to kill, not to wound. So to me, a 22 is not what I would consider.

 

[PT92]

I am new to this forum. A lot of years in the military and new to carrying in the states here. One thing I learned long ago though. If you have to shoot, you have to be mentally prepared for the action, and you better shoot to kill, not to wound. So to me, a 22 is not what I would consider.

Welcome dallanta--Precisely, if you don't like the 22, don't carry it. But understand that someone else might shoot 'lights-out' with it as their preferred CCW device.

-Cheers

 

[JohnKSa]

you have to shoot, you have to be mentally prepared for the action, and you better shoot to kill, not to wound.

Since you're new, I'll go ahead and open the can of worms for your benefit.

It's not a super-great idea to go around publicly saying that you believe the goal of self-defense is killing someone.

The goal of self-defense is stopping the attack, it's really not relevant whether the assailant lives or dies.

That does NOT mean that we should shoot to wound. From a practical perspective, shooting to stop is generally very similar, if not identical (at least in terms of point of aim) to shooting to kill, but intent is a critical part of the legal justification of self-defense. You're better off if you're not on the record saying that your intent is to kill.

 

[theicemanmpls]

Since you're new, I'll go ahead and open the can of worms for your benefit.

It's not a super-great idea to go around publicly saying that you believe the goal of self-defense is killing someone.

The goal of self-defense is stopping the attack, it's really not relevant whether the assailant lives or dies.

That does NOT mean that we should shoot to wound. From a practical perspective, shooting to stop is generally very similar, if not identical (at least in terms of point of aim) to shooting to kill, but intent is a critical part of the legal justification of self-defense. You're better off if you're not on the record saying that your intent is to kill.

+1 on this.
If you are not in fear for your life, you have no business even showing the other guy your firearm. To do so, can and will result in a incarceration. While waiting for the legal wheels to slowly grind you will encounter the 1% of of society you often see on COPS. If you are weak in body, and in demeanor, you may end up becoming Buba's wife.

Take classes. Read the laws. Practice with your carry firearm.

If you do encounter the police, remember they are not your friends. They will do what ever they have to do, to get a conviction. Invoke your right to remain silent and request legal representation.

Welcome to the forum Datllanta

 

[exavid]

In a lot of states you don't have to be in mortal fear of your life to use lethal force, a fear of bodily harm is cause enough for the law. Check your state's regs.

 

[JRH6856]

If you are not in fear for your life, you have no business even showing the other guy your firearm. To do so, can and will result in a incarceration.

In a lot of states you don't have to be in mortal fear of your life to use lethal force, a fear of bodily harm is cause enough for the law. Check your state's regs.

Definitely know the law in your home state and any state you plan to visit. In some states, drawing your weapon is considered use of deadly force. If you are not in fear for your life, it can land you in jail.

OTOH, in Texas, drawing your weapon is considered to be the threat of deadly force, but threatening deadly force is, under Texas law, not use of deadly force. It is just use of force, and it is legal to use force to prevent the unlawful use of force against you.

There are 50 states, and as many sets of laws. They may be similar in principal, but differ considerably in the details.

 

[bigfatdave]

There are 50 states, and as many sets of laws. They may be similar in principal, but differ considerably in the details.

and in none of them is "shoot to kill" acceptable.
In fact, "shoot to kill" only exists as a phrase in opposition to "shoot to wound" ... which is an even stupider concept.
"Shoot to stop" is always right for a defensive use, and a "stop" may not even require shooting.

 

[22-rimfire]

It needs to be said that just because a .22 round to COM stops the fight roughly one out of four times DOES NOT mean that four shots work all the time.

Nothing works all the time.

Here, let me say it loud and clear.

BIGGER IS NOT BETTER.

CARRY WHAT EVER THE HELL YOU WANT. IT's YOUR ASS.

That pretty much sums up the way I feel about it. IF you feel you can carry that snubbie 500 S&W, go for it. If you choose to carry a small pocket sized 22LR for whatever reason, go for it. You just have to understand what your choice means in the real world.... whatever the real world is???....... Anyone seen the real world around lately?

It has been a spirited thread. The 22 threads always get people out of the closet to say what they really believe and feel. Yes, feel. Choosing a 22 for SD is an emotional decision.

These pocket sized handguns have their negatives.... I just bought a Ruger LCR-22 for the heck of it and DARN IF I CAN'T FIND IT NOW! Haven't even shot it yet! Well as I type this thread the little beast reared its ugly head from under some papers on my desk. I was worried!

 

[Mike1234567]

Those MN. folks always 'beat around the bush'...Must be that cold weather...

Doesn't cold weather make things shrink?

 

[contender]

Some gun store salesmen should be tarred and feathered. I over heard this at a national chain. I observed a sales clerk try to sell a widow a .40 cal Glock for HD. He said, "only use a gun thats starts in 4 for self defense" " Anything less won't work" This woman had never shot a firearm in her life

i have witnessed this first hand with ladies and one elderly gentleman who could not pull the slide back on the weapon.

again, at this point in my life and for my own personal reasons that apply to me, i will go with the 38. My current personal reasons apply to me, not everyone else. If a .22 works for someone else and their own set of personal reasons and requirements, then so be it.


in 15 or so years, my personal capabilities and requirements just might be the "lowly" .22 or .25 acp.

And another excuse to purchase a new gun......the beretta 21 or LCR .22 sounds like a good investment and a lot of fun. one day it just might become the primary carry weapon for me.................but not today.

 

[jrdolall]

I don't know that I would want to carry a .22 for SD but I own several of them. I am pretty certaain that you would have to put a lot of center mass shots into an assailant with a .22 to "stop" him though he would likely bleed to death later. With that said it is also apparent that 10 shots from a .22 that strike the target are better than one round from a .45 that misses. A .50 cal probably has the best stopping power but they don't fit in my pocket very well.

 

[slicer22]

.22 thoughts by OP after 650 rds through the gun

The little Taurus packs a sharp and nasty little punch--- when it fires; it's now giving me FTL about 15% of my shots, even after a good cleaning and even when using best ammo. I have to call Taurus (they don't have email!) and ask what to do, get a new spring or something I guess.

Would a different .22 pocket be any better? I find even the best grade rimfires fail to fire at about a 1-2% rate. Who wants to be in the "gun wouldn't fire when I needed it" bracket.

If the gun and ammo were 100% reliable, or nearly so, I might keep it as a primary carry despite the small round---because it's so small, and so cheap you can easily train to fire multiple shots. It would be a calculated gamble because, even if the FBI is right, in those 10% of events, the BG is stopped by bigger caliber.

However it's pretty academic and thread is fully satisfied: .22 is fun, but just not enough gun. And since .380 is also suspect, it looks like a micro 9mm is strongly recommended for the pocket-carry types among us.

 

[JRH6856]

And since .380 is also suspect, it looks like a micro 9mm is strongly recommended for the pocket-carry types among us.

If there is anything to be learned from this thread, it is that the .22 and .25 are suspect by those who prefer .32 which is suspect by those who prefer .380 which is suspect by those who prefer 9mm which is suspect by those who prefer .40 which is suspect by those who prefer .45 which is suspect by those who don't like Jeff Cooper.

FWIW, larger calibers in smaller guns mean more recoil for you to control as there is less mass in the gun to provide inertia to absorb it. It makes recovery for the second shot a bit more difficult. No matter what you choose, you will have to compromise something. If there was a perfect caliber/gun combo, we wouldn't have threads this long.

 

[JShirley]

...and on that note...