Run, Hide, FIGHT

[Plan2Live]

In an attempt to get the thread back on track, I am surprised that the vast majority of the respondents here ignore or discount one of the points from my original post and that is; if you are within 10 feet of a gunman (arbitrary number but most can visualize that distance) you really have no choice other than to rush the gunman even if you aren't armed with a firearm.

Are you practicing your knife skills, are you practicing your disarming techniques, have you considered other techniques that might be helpful in a situation like this such as ejecting the shooter's magazine or forcing a fail to eject if the shooter is using a pistol? If pinned down would you be listening for the sound of a mag change?

There are many other considerations for a situation like this other than focusing solely on which firearm you wish you would have in such a scenario. And moving away from just thinking about an attack in a bar, I can think of at least three places in South Carolina I might be entering or leaving where I cannot, under the force of law, be armed. Those are; courthouses, a school or a doctor's office/hospital. So thinking about handling such a situation while not armed is also a valid and useful point of discussion without digressing into " I don't care what the law says I carry everywhere" discussion.

 

[hdwhit]

if you are within 10 feet of a gunman (arbitrary number but most can visualize that distance) you really have no choice other than to rush the gunman even if you aren't armed

I would not agree with that as a general rule.

The "proper" response (being defined as the response that keeps you alive) would seem to be dependent upon a number of factors such as:

• The number of people around me,
• My health,
• My proximity to an exit,
• My ability to put others between myself and the shooter, and
• Whether all potential victims are within the field of vision or the shooter.

There could be many others, but let's just go with those for the moment.

If the room has only a few people in it, I am close to being directly in front of the shooter and I am in good physical condition, then, yes, I would agree that the odds favor rushing the shooter and trying to get your body within the circle inscribed by the muzzle of the gun and then fighting. I'm assuming you have already considered that if you are going to rush the shooter, picking up anything you can immediately get your hand on to either throw at the shooter to distract them while you rush or use as an extemporized weapon when you get to them improves the odds.

On the other hand, if the room is crowded, I'm near the edge of the shooter's peripheral vision, the exit is close, the path to the exit is clear and there are people around me so disposed that if I start moving, they will be situated between me and the shooter before the shooter can react, then I would say the odds favor fleeing.

In my particular case, I am handicapped, so mobility is an issue. I would always attempt to flee because my neurological deficits mean that the distance you can cover in 1.5 second will take me close to 3. I'm sure there are others in the over-60 crowd here that might have slowed down enough that it would also impact their assessment of the hazards of fighting versus fleeing; even as close as 10 feet.

 

[scaatylobo]

@ vern humphrey

I would do as much as I could to stop a madman.

My oath never expired ,and after making sure that my wife was safe --- I would head toward the gunfire as I had for decades.

I am not "duty bound" any longer.

I am morally bound to stop the attack of ANYONE,regardless of my thoughts on their morals or morality & sanity.

I see this as a possible incident at a mall or theater,that is where I might be.

That is why I was at the range with only handguns yesterday for 2 hours.

Making sure I could make the head shot at 25 yards [ yes,no one was shooting back ! ] under perfect circumstances.

I am walking a bit heavier in the past few weeks,and plan to until "defcon 3" is over

 

[MedWheeler]

I see this as a possible incident at a mall or theater,that is where I might be.

It has hit me kind of close to home to know the Orlando terrorist shopped at the very same mall at which my wife, daughter, and I frequently are, and was last known to do so just days before his attack. It's not even a very large mall, and is located next to the gun store at which he tried to purchase body armor and ammunition.

 

[Jeff22]

Target Isolation and The Greater Danger Theory

Target isolation means that you can shoot at your target without danger of harming innocent people. If the person who shot at you from the apartment building ran out of the building and into a crowd of people, you could not shoot at him or her without endangering others.

The one exception to the requirement for target isolation is called the greater danger exception. Essentially, this exception allows you to shoot without target isolation if the consequence of not stopping the threat would be worse than the possibility of hitting an innocent person. For example, if a deranged subject were randomly shooting people, you might be justified in firing without target isolation because if not stopped, the suspect could be expected to continue shooting. The chance that your bullet might strike an innocent person is preferable to the likelihood of the suspect killing or injuring many others.

 

[Old Guy]

I posted what to do with a sharp lock back knife? No answer?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

No offense meant, but there is an old saying, "Dumb enough to bring a knife to a gun fight."

 

[DaisyCutter]

Use your knowledge of how firearms work and either disarm the shooter or temporarily disable the firearm by ejecting the magazine, engaging the safety, creating a fail to eject with a pistol or grip the cylinder on a revolver preventing it from operating while you kick, punch, stab, slash, gouge eyes or anything else you have to do to survive.

There is definitely a time & distance when pressing engagement is the best of several bad options. It's against survival instinct, but violence and bias for action can be the only thing that saves lives.

My experience, despite a lot of taxpayer funded weapon and retention training, is to forego the fancy stuff and introduce the aggressor into the hard floor at the highest velocity you can muster. Take the 32.2 ft/sec/sec gravity lends you and drive him/her down as hard as possible. Then eye gouge. ;-)

Unless the shooter is a prior bull rider, the clatter should disorient them sufficiently to gain and maintain the advantage if you follow up.

All the fancy training they've given me, and ultimately going mongo still works the best, in my experience.

 

[Plan2Live]

Dumb enough to bring a knife to a gun fight.

Said the person who doesn't know how to fight with a knife. There is another saying that goes something like; "charge a gun, flee a knife".

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Tell me, how many men have you killed with a knife?

And if the answer is zero, what is the basis for your claim to know how to fight with a knife?

 

[captainamerica]

Sometimes a knife is all that I have lawfully available to me and under the right circumstances I would definitely attempt a charge at a active murderous shooter, especially if 10 yds or less from them. If even 5 knife wielding likely victims all charged a shooter they may all die, some may live, but the shooter may be wounded beyond continuing to shoot or dead too. Nothing is for sure but trying a counter defense is better than waiting to be shot.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

It's perfectly true that the Tueiller drill shows a man within 21 feet of you with a knife is deadly -- IF he is willng to die in order to kill you.

 

[Deaf Smith]

It's perfectly true that the Tueiller drill shows a man within 21 feet of you with a knife is deadly -- IF he is willng to die in order to kill you.

There is so much misunderstood about this drill. It is not an absolute tape-measured SEVEN YARDS.

1) It was demonstrated with the weapon is HOLSTERED and they charge. Upholstered and aimed would change that.
2) The attacker is a fast runner. What if they are slow and cannot move fast? Or the reverse?
3) The defender is of 'average' reflexes. What if they are fast and well trained or slow with no real training?

If one is to use this drill as some sort of standard you cannot say inside 7 yards you are in mortal danger for the reasons above. Much will depend on a) if your weapon is holstered or drawn, b) the physical ability of the attacker, and c) the abilities of the defender.

Remember that cause if your weapon is drawn and aimed, and you are a well tested shooter, plus the attacker is in poor condition to attack, then the danger zone is much shorter, while if your weapon is holstered, you are not a skillful shot, and the attacker is very fit, then the danger zone is much greater.

Deaf

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Originally posted by Deaf Smith:

There is so much misunderstood about this drill. It is not an absolute tape-measured SEVEN YARDS.

Perfectly true. And neither will it be an absolute tape-measured SEVEN YARDS if you are faced by a knife-wielding attacker, or attempt to charge a man with a gun.

Originally posted by Deaf Smith: 1) It was demonstrated with the weapon is HOLSTERED and they charge. Upholstered and aimed would change that.

True. Although perhaps not enough to save your life.

Originally posted by Deaf Smith: 2) The attacker is a fast runner. What if they are slow and cannot move fast? Or the reverse?

As part of the drill, the age, sex, weight and other data about the attacker and defender are recorded. This drill has been run literally tens of thousands of times by various police and civilian trainers, and the general findings are that the physical characteristics of the attacker only amount to about 0.1 seconds difference in time.

Originally posted by Deaf Smith:
3) The defender is of 'average' reflexes. What if they are fast and well trained or slow with no real training?

Again, with tens of thousands of instances, things like that only amount to about 0.1 seconds difference in time.

Originally posted by Deaf Smith:
If one is to use this drill as some sort of standard you cannot say inside 7 yards you are in mortal danger for the reasons above.

It has been used in court to say exactly that on many occasions. That's why I recommend the Tueiller Drill be incorporated in CCW classes.

 

[scaatylobo]

Gotta agree

IF your about to meet your maker,and all you have is a blade = I say you HAVE to go for it.

Sorry if that is you,I tend to stay FAR clear of GFZ's [ gun free zones ].

And if required to go there,the least I will have is a "tool" that can be used as a last ditch attempt to remove a few parts of the attacker body [ eye's will suffice ].

Maybe you just get lucky,and if he is looking the other way ---- the Tueller drill is not in play at all.

I promise I will not ask him to " drop the gun " ,before trying to make him to just that.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Vern,

Are you saying it takes only .1 second difference to DRAW a gun than to have it already drawn and aimed?


You are kidding us, right?

For you see that is part of the equation. If the gun is drawn that cuts down the time they can advance toward you thus giving you more time and reducing the danger zone.

And no Vern, a person with bad knees, short legs, overweight, cannot run as fast, even short distances, than a very athletic person.

Since you sited 'studies', what are these studies? Who published them.

Deaf

 

[Jamming]

"Making sure I could make the head shot at 25 yards [ yes,no one was shooting back ! ] under perfect circumstances."

Forget head shots...when the adrenaline is pumping do you really think you can make a head shot? You aim for center mass and shoot until one of two things happen; either you run out of ammo or the threat is down.

I consider myself a good marksman, I'm a Vet, qualified Expert, been under fire, was shooting in a league at an indoor range, was a Reserve Police Officer, went through an Academy so you'd think I could I could make a head shot right?

25 years ago I was a Reserve Police Officer (in uniform) heading into duty and engaged an active shooter when I unknowingly walked into a bad situation in a small family owned grocery store. I was carrying a 9MM Auto and he fired at me and missed as I walked in the door, I moved forward, purely by instinct into an isle. He came after me and fired one more round..missed...I aimed center mass and hit him twice...out of 7 I fired...from 10 feet in a semi-crouch. Learned a lot that day, it was a good shoot.

Trust me...center mass..there are no winners in a gunfight..only survivors.

 

[scaatylobo]

@ jammin

Glad you survived that gun fight.

But I am thinking FAR out of the box,and in modern times too.

I see the head as the most likely place that is not armored [ if I hit armor,I am toast as he will take me out ].

I am thinking that there will be LOTS of people in between us and I will most likely have to get on a chair or elevated platform [ yes,I do think these things through ].

I need to stop the threat ASAP,and I see that practicing the head shot at 25 yards is the best scenario for me.

Hope we both NEVER FIND OUT, if that is doable .

But I will continue to practice that shot .

btw,was an LEO and firearms instr and been under fire too.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Vern,

Are you saying it takes only .1 second difference to DRAW a gun than to have it already drawn and aimed?

No, I didn't say that. Don't put words in my mouth.

I said in the Tueller Drill, the time to complete the attack varies + or - 0.1 seconds, regardless of the age, sex and other factors related to the attacker and defender.

 

[Deaf Smith]

No, I didn't say that. Don't put words in my mouth.

I said in the Tueller Drill, the time to complete the attack varies + or - 0.1 seconds, regardless of the age, sex and other factors related to the attacker and defender.

So the physical shape of the defender or attacker won't alter their making 7 yards by .1 seconds?

And back to the drill. So the 7 yard danger zone won't be affect if the defender's gun is drawn and aimed .vs. holstered?

Deaf

 

[scaatylobo]

Did it many times over

In the academy we ran the "Tueller drill" many times and if you see the only real WIN is not holes in the gunman = there is no win.

I was a good deal younger and I could take out the shooter ,even with gun drawn if they did not see a real reason to shoot soon enough [ knife alongside leg ].

21 feet is no where near enough .

It was done with red man suits and simunitions as well as a baton.

 

[X-Rap]

In these drills was it mandatory that the shooter attempt firing during the initial rush or was it allowed to deflect/sidestep and the fire?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[scaatylobo]

@ x-rap

The drills were different each time ,so as to not give all the easy answer.

There were NO SHOOT drills,where the "attacker" was not armed just rushing the LEO.

Then there were the hidden along the leg [ knife or gun ] attacks where the LEO did not see the weapon until DANGER CLOSE.

There were many times that the LEO did actually get shots on target = but as you know that does NOT mean a stopping shot was delivered.

The drills are a very good hands on way to see what can actually happen during an 'OH SHEEET' moment !.

I would LOVE to see a school for "force on force" available to ALL who CCW.

You would really get to know your limitations.

 

[JTHunter]

scaatylobo said:

I see the head as the most likely place that is not armored [ if I hit armor, I am toast as he will take me out ].

G. Gordon Liddy, one of the Watergate conspirators, had a radio talk show back in the late 80s-early 90s and one of his favorite expressions was "Body armor doesn't cover everything."

That would also include from the mid-thigh down. If you take out a knee or, using a shotgun, actually remove a leg, if they don't bleed out and die, at least they are no longer mobile and are out of the fight.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

So the physical shape of the defender or attacker won't alter their making 7 yards by .1 seconds?

How could the physical shape of the defender or attacker be altered by the Tueller Drill?

What I said was that in literally thousands of instances, physical shape and other factors does not result in more than +/- 0.1 seconds difference in time to run the drill.

And back to the drill. So the 7 yard danger zone won't be affect if the defender's gun is drawn and aimed .vs. holstered?

The Tueller Drill does not involve an already-drawn weapon.