S&W "Deal" Is It Time To Move On ?

[guy sajer]

The "deal" made by the S&W and the Clintonista's . I know this is a passionate topic for some of the members here .

Is it time to move on ?
The leadership at Smith that made the deal is out . The workers at S&W are Americans with families , mortgages etc . They had nothing to do with it .
What good would it serve you or the gun industry to put them out of business ? If S&W went out of business , it would be like winning the Super Bowl for Sarah and her crowd .

I'm trying to look at this from a logical as opposed to an emotional view point .

I didn't approve of it then or now but i think it's time we move on !

Mitch

 

[EJ]

I think S&W needs to be judged on their own merits now--

I personally perfer pre-agreement S&W firearms anyway-- and I have no problem purchasing them--

I haven't seen or heard a lot of great things about the "NEW" S&W(s) -- so my vote will be witheld -- I am willing to look at what they have and listen to what they say--

The next few years should be very interesting--

They have a free ride right now--With Bush--But that could change.
We could lose the presidency and part or all of congress in the next election.
S&W may or may not have to live up to the previous agrement based on a court determination of the lack of enforcement by Govt for four years as well as abandonment of both the letter of the contract as well as the spirit -- on both sides.

That may well free them up -- but attempts could be made by others to file similar cases then--

We are all still under attack-- S&W and us just have a short (Slightly) easier time of it right now--- That is of course unless you live in California or --(like me) Illinois with the new Dem Governor and state house--

 

[Mr. James]

No.

The agreement lives.



Just waiting for President Hillary Clinton.

 

[Preacherman]

I know the agreement is dormant, but it's not dead... and won't be until the court ruling, making it an order of court, is overturned. For that to happen, both parties to the agreement (the Feds and S&W) would have to go back to court, before the same judge, to mutually request that the court order be set aside. If the judge didn't like their request, he could refuse to do so... at which time the issue would have to be taken to a higher court on appeal. If the agreement is not set aside by a court, it remains in force, even though not observed (or required to be observed) by either party. If the anti's ever regain power, they could then reimpose it, and perhaps even sue S&W for not adhering to its terms.

I will only feel completely reassured about this situation when S&W initiates steps to have this agreement nullified in court.

 

[Coltdriver]

There is no way I am going to deny myself the worlds finest revolvers just because the clintonistas got into a game of patty cake with some brits.

That being said, the older S&W's are some of the highest quality guns ever made in mass quantities. That is my humble opinion and your mileage may vary.

I have a 940 and a Model 38 and they are keepers.

When I can afford it I am going to treat myself to one of those 3 inch model 27's from the performance center.

If we eliminate every good American gun maker because they get squeezed by the government, what will we defend ourselves with when the government comes to squeeze us???

 

[Mr. James]

Well, Coltdriver, there's no further comment needed. You won't be deprived, so go for it!!! Do you want affirmation?

We aren't out to eliminate any gun maker. But remember, the "Clintonistas" peddled this same agreement to all gunmakers. Only Smith & Wesson caved, agreeing to grotesque abrogations of not only their rights, as a legal "person" in the United States, but to the rights of unaffiliated gun dealers throughout the nation. Other gunmakers got together and said go urinate up a rope. Meanwhile, the S&W agreement stands.

No thanks, and no sale.

 

[Wildalaska]

S&W had a choice...cave in or go out of business..add to the mix British owners and voila, a probably legally enforceable agreement that Im sure isnt even binding on the new owners...

So judge them on their guns...

WildturntheothercheekAlaska

 

[beemerb]

Untill the agreement is declared void S&W will get no money from me.Plenty of used ones around. I just picked up a model 57 with all the T's and pined and recessed.
Have you looked at the junk they are putting out now?QC is down the tubes.
Bob

 

[KMKeller]

I won't yet say that it's time to move on. But I will say that when considering ultralight revos, I ended up purchasing an S&W 340 because I didn't feel safe trusting my family's lives to the other options out there. It's also my first revo and first Smith, so I plead paranoid ignorance...

 

[Wildalaska]

Have you looked at the junk they are putting out now?QC is down the tubes.

Other than the Smegma autos, S&W quality control is superb and in the rare event that something goes bad, they fix it no question asked immediately.

They are the best DA revolvers on the market bar none..period...

WildsometimespeoplesaysillythingsAlaska

 

[SteelyDan]

I buy S&Ws, I buy Rugers, I buy Levis, I take my kids to Disney movies, etc., etc. I also smoke, own an SUV, and drink alcohol. I hunt and fish, and eat at McDonalds.

One way or another, these choices probably offend 90% of the population. Ya know what, I really don't care.

I grew up believing that respect was a two way street. We may not agree on anything, but you respect my right to my beliefs, and I'll respect your rights to yours. As an example, I don't even smoke in smoking sections of restaurants if there's any chance it drifts into the non-smoking section.

Bottom line: there are way too many people telling me how I should run my life. I tuned that out a long time ago. I do the best I can, and I'm not proud of everything I've done, but overall it's worked out pretty well and I'm happy with how things have worked out.

One final thought. We've had more tragedy and horror stories than most families see in several generations. These events remind you of what is really important, and what is not. And what is NOT important is telling other people how they should run their lives on every little issue that comes along.

 

[AR-10]

The Smith and Wesson Agreement is not like "every little issue that comes along". It is about people with power using Fascist tactics to create government control over an industry. Control that Congress would not grant them by law.

It is not dead.

It is not about British or American owners.

It is not any less offensive than it was two years ago.

 

[Sarge111]

Your money, your choice...

I was major PO'ed when this happened, and hoped the American shooting public would send S&W a message. I believe they did, and it was duly noted. I am as unhappy as anyone else that this "agreement" still stands; it is nothing more than a sleazy trial lawyer trick to facilitate gun control legislation that the antis could not get Congress to pass. And why wouldn't they pass it? They knew they would be held accountable by the public. Maybe the manufacturer needed to be reminded of that.

Conversly, I have to remind myself that we are talking about individual freedoms here, whether the subject is choosing to own a firearm or choosing which firearm to own. You earned it, you pay taxes on it. You don't need me telling you to do with it after that, do you?

Whatever you do with it, I don't reckon you'll be spending much of it at K-Mart. Their empty stores will stand as mute testimony of what can happen when you pi$$ off the shooting public. My advice to any corporation or politician is to pay attention as those "Big K" signs coming down- you could be next.

 

[Zander]

S&W quality control is superb

Oh, please...it is no such thing. I've never seen it so spotty. Frame-mounted firing pins that break [one 610 I witnessed lasted two shots], cylinders with bolt-stop cuts that allow sloppy lockup, machining marks on frames, MIM parts that fracture...the list goes on and on.

Spend your hard-earned dollars on pre-agreement S&Ws...that way you'll have a fighting chance of buying a decent revolver.

 

[Dennis Olson]

Bush 2 is NO FRIEND of gun rights....

 

[pax]

We didn't start the boycott in order to kill the company.

We started the boycott in order to kill the agreement.

The agreement is not dead yet. It is sleeping.

When I hear people say, "What good would it do to kill the company?," I know two things. I know that they didn't understand why we were boycotting to begin with, and I know that they are more interested in emotion (those poor people losing their jobs!) than they are in logic.

Until the agreement is dead -- not dormant, not disabled, but DEAD -- the boycott should continue. If it doesn't, all the hoorah to date has been wasted because the boycott will not have accomplished what it was set in place to accomplish.

pax

Vox populi, vox humbug. -- General Sherman

 

[Wildalaska]

Oh, please...it is no such thing. I've never seen it so spotty. Frame-mounted firing pins that break [one 610 I witnessed lasted two shots], cylinders with bolt-stop cuts that allow sloppy lockup, machining marks on frames, MIM parts that fracture...the list goes on and on.

Evidently you must be getting the "seconds

In the past three years I have, shot, handled, shipped, sold, stocked, seen and otherwise been involved with probably over 1000 S&W pistols and revolvers and again, other than Smegmas, I have seen NONE of the problems you mentioned.

If you hate S&W becasue of their business practices, fine, however, IMHO, as one involved in the industry and with NO STAKE whatsoever in S&W, you post is untrue.

WilddefenderofthetruthAlaska:

 

[Jason Demond]

Only pre-agreements S&W's for me!

 

[Zander]

If you hate S&W becasue of their business practices, fine, ...

IOW, your anecdotal experiences lead you to say that my anecdotal experiences are fabrications.

That about it?

I don't 'hate' S&W the entity nor do I 'hate' the management. Such emotion is reserved for the sociofascists who fostered and intend to perpepuate an agreement designed to guarantee the institution of fascism in the firearms industry. That the products produced post-agreement [including those from the now-euphemistically titled "Performance Center'] are inherently flawed for strictly political purposes is a matter of fact.

S&W continues to struggle; IMO, that is a good thing. If they formally denounce the agreement, I'll be the first in line to buy new products. Otherwise, I'll extend my boycott and buy used S&W products which speak to the real quality of bygone days.

If you disagree [again?], I'd urge you to read the *entire* agreement and give us a reason why a portion of S&W's profits should be shunted to virulently anti-gun efforts. That, too, is a matter of fact.

It's all in the fine print...and has little to do with your dealer's desire to vend products.

 

[westex]

Did it freeze over and I missed it?

 

[Standing Wolf]

I'm not buying new Smith & Wesson products until a.) I can buy firearms without integral locks, and b.) the agreement the company signed with the Snopes Clinton-Liar Gore régime has been declared null and void. I don't do business with anti-Second Amendment bigots.

 

[Wildalaska]

IOW, your anecdotal experiences lead you to say that my anecdotal experiences are fabrications.

Well yes, because obviouslyyou have an axe to grind with S&W, and your reports fly in the face of what I have observed as aforesaid, and what has generally been reported about S&W quality on this and other Boards...

It's all in the fine print...and has little to do with your dealer's desire to vend products.

Dealers vend what their customers ask for. If nobody wanted S&W, they wouldnt sell. Unfortunately for the irrational S&W haters, they do.

BTW, I hate the locks. I also hate them on Remington, Sakos, Tauruses...

WildalwaysreasonableAlaska

 

[AR-10]

Is "irrational S&W haters" a generic term to describe all who prefer not to help this company profit at this time?

You do not address the agreement except to say that you doubt it can be enforced. That is typical of all the issue-avoiding Smith defenders. You seem to be saying that you are providing the gun community a service by providing them with the product they want. You would do better to digest the agreement and then either debunk the arguments against it or stop selling them. As a dealer you should at least try to be informed. I have spoken to half a dozen dealers about this issue face to face and at length. They all have the same vague opinion you express. They never made any fact based statements to back up their assertions that the deal is off. In each case I ended the conversation realizing that money was clouding their judgement.

The quality of product is a side issue, not the focus of the discussion. I did see two threads in this forum complaining of poor quality. Apparently they are not all perfect. The Hong Kong police just rejected a shipment of 1,000 revolvers. They feel that 20% of them are defective.

The truth regarding quality lies somewhere between your perception and that of Zander's. Calling him a "Smith Hater" with an "axe to grind" is not fair or acurate.

Address the issue. The Agreement. If it is dead, prove it. If it won't affect me, prove it.

 

[Gewehr98]

It ain't dead. Dormant, maybe, but not dead.

I'll continue to collect only pre-agreement, pre-save-us-from-ourselves-internal-lock S&W handguns. Didn't see so many tears when other well-known U.S. firearms manufacturers were threatened with extinction - H&R, High Standard, and the poor suffering employees of the now-defunct Raven, Jennings, Lorcin, Bryco paperweight company. Doesn't your heart bleed for them, too?

Businesses fold and reconstitute, for good reasons or bad. Were S&W to crumple, life would go on.

And, oh, those Sigmas. Ick. Never knew a gun would malfunction right out of the box so quickly. The 22A is unfortunately right there with it in the cheesy plastic category.

Mike, you've been strangely quiet about this thread? I'm real tempted to insert your link about the agreement here.

 

[guy sajer]

Not being one to start a controversial thread and then bale , this is about what I expected when I started this thread . Thank you for the feedback from both sides .

AR you are correct .The "fact " is that the deal is not off . I've always thought of myself as an informed dealer . I guess I'm a little biased ? I have kept a copy of the several times amended "agreement" in my desk since it was released . I have digested it . As written , I would doubt that any dealer in the country would have been able to abide by it and would have declined to sell S&W . When it was first announced , we as well as most dealers denounced it and still do . It was maddening to say the least . After cooling off a little , we decided to leave it up to our customers whether or not to drop Smith . If that's wrong in your opinion , then that's fine . It's your opinion . You can refuse to sell S&W in your store . I respect your right to run your business the best way you see fit .

There will always be some that will stick to their boycott principles . I respect that . It's your choice . I will say that it probably has affected S&W monetarily . Their sales/profits do continue to rise though . But , I'm sure they would like your business .

As a dealer with bills to pay and a desire for growth as well as a responibility to our 20 employees to make a profit in order to pay them , yes money is important . That's why people start their own business . To make money and be independent as well as control our own destiny . We put up with a lot of crap from the govt and anti's to do this . That's the path we chose and we like what we do . Is money clouding our judgement , I don't believe so . Money is one of the tools we use to grow our business . Could we continue to grow without S&W ? Sure . But , our family store is bent on customer service . We try to carry the products that customers are asking for as long as it's safe we don't have service problems with it . If this makes me "typically clouded" then I guess you're right .

Smith is making a good product based on our experince . I'm the one that writes the letters inserted with malfunctioning guns going back to the mfg for service . In '02 , I can remember maybe 5 guns going back to S&W out of maybe 300 sold .

I have yet to see a MIM parts failure on a Smith . Several years ago we did have a thumb safety snap on a Kimber . We did have a 625 break a firing pin 3 or4 years ago though . Obviously , some of you have seen problems .We are not experiencing them .

As for the new lock , I don't like it . I'm not sure why . Most of the customers don't seem to mind though . We haven't had any malfunctions caused by it though . More and more companies are using one . I'll add H&K and Springfield Armory to the list of internal lock users started earlier here . We haven't had any lock failures so far on the brands mentioned .

Respectfully ,
Mitch English
www.oldeenglishoutfitters.com