SA for CCW?

[High Desert Hunter]

Here in New Mexico, where open carry is still legal, I have a tendency to carry a single action Ruger, either a 357 Flattop, or a Nm Blackhawk in 45 Colt. For CCW I carry a 1911, simply because it conceals better in the IWB holster, and next to my fat body it is more comfortable. I do feel (and this is just my opinion) that a good center of mass hit from a 45 Colt will take the fight out of all but the most drug crazed lunatic out there, and I am quite accurate with either one, I have shot single actions for about 32 years, and they just feel natural, an extension of my hand. They are not my first choice for CCW, but both times I have had to draw a weapon due to a human threat, the mere appearance of my sixshooter was enough to convince the aggressor that maybe there was easier prey elsewhere, I have never pulled my 1911, but I have only had it for a few years, hope I never do.

 

[David E]

Wow.........I agree with Bigblock and he launches a personal attack, calls me names, then issues a challenge to the death.

He said in Post #14:

I can fire all six rounds just as fast SA as DA. And I rarely practice.

And I said,

"THAT'S because you DON'T PRACTICE !!!"

It's not an insult or personal attack, it's merely agreeing with his statement.

It seems simple enough to me. He says he doesn't practice, therefore, he's unable to perform a certain skill. I agreed.

Then bigblock says: You don't have a clue what I do.

By reading his own words, I do. He doesn't practice !

He needs to read the words actually posted. I said and agreed that, using two hands, a single action can keep up, if not surpass, the speed of a 1911 for the first 6 shots.

That's when extraneous, unrelated elements were brought in by others who said the SA is faster/more accurate than the DA for a single shot or for a "timed fire" bullseye event. Neither of which were germane to the topic of carrying a Single Action for defense.

bigblock: I challenge you to a duel. I get a factory Blackhawk and you can have whatever gun you want. But I get to dance on your grave when it's done...(you think I'm kidding? PM me)

bigblock, you need to settle down, bud ! Seriously. Issuing a duel to the death with someone whose skill level and experience you do not know just isn't wise.

 

[David E]

David E when I use 45acp in my bh I have no problem working the hammer quickly. the recoil is actually less as it is a heavier gun, further as the gun rocks back you thumb the hammer back. I know it sounds cumbersome but it's not.

I fully understand the dynamics you are describing. As I previously posted in this thread, my first few guns were single actions and I got to be pretty good with them. My Blackhawk .45 Colt was a lot of fun to shoot fast, one handed. Since shot timers weren't invented yet, I can't tell you what my split times were then, but I'd guess, at best, they were 3/4 second between shots. Probably closer to a full second, tho. Still, not too bad, given the load (250 SWC backed by 10 grains of Unique)

If you choose to carry a single action for defense, more power to you! But it would behoove you to practice with the actual defense loads you'll have in it, not the powder puff cowboy loads.

.

 

[Bezoar]

the original post was about the use of a SA for ccw.

lets look at it from a sceptical viewpoint.
SURE a cocked SA is easy to shoot by accidental trigger pressure, but more people have been hurt with a glock trigger.
to many incidentsin magazines and online of the old "victim pulled glock to themself along floor of vehicle/closet by muzzle and ended up with a bullet in the head".

Any handgun can be hard to draw from concealment. Ive read that alot of the sub compact autos are hard to draw fast because its not always easy to FIND the handle in an emergency and yank it out for action.

Reloading a SA is going to be harder then with a DA or an auto. However with autos you have the classic "tried to insert magazine backwards during shootout"

Cant say accuracy of follow up shots is going to be worse in any SA compared to a DA revovler or a semi auto.
Look at police shooting, they use the "better to aim for follow up shot" wonder guns and still need 5 officers to fire 72 rounds to hit a criminal once.

 

[JB Books]

I shoot an engraved Colt SAA regularly, and although I am pretty good with it, even "from the hip," I don't carry it concealed (well, I have a few times , but only when wearing my 200x Stetson and JB Hill boots!)

 

[qwert65]

If you choose to carry a single action for defense, more power to you! But it would behoove you to practice with the actual defense loads you'll have in it, not the powder puff cowboy loads

You consider 45acp "cowboy loads" what do you carry?

 

[Matt-J2]

Or just carry the cowboy loads.

 

[David E]

David E:

If you choose to carry a single action for defense, more power to you! But it would behoove you to practice with the actual defense loads you'll have in it, not the powder puff cowboy loads

Qwert65:

You consider 45acp "cowboy loads" what do you carry?

No, I don't. As long as the ACP loads are factory loaded or equivalent, nothing "cowboy" about it.

I was making a general statement about being familiar with the loads in your gun. Cops learned this the hard way with the .357. They'd practice and qualify ONLY with light .38 special loads. Come time to use it on the street, the kick, blast and flash were a very new, very disorienting sensation. Shooting for your life is a bad time to wonder if your gun blew up in your hand, don't you agree?

I carry the best defensive load for the caliber in the gun I'm carrying at the time.

Personally, I don't consider the typical "cowboy loads" to be good at anything but shooting metal plates at cowboy matches. Their "Power Factor" (bullet weight x velocity / 1000) is only 60. They do have a minimum velocity of 400 fps, so that means a 150 grain bullet only has to go 400 fps to make Power Factor. Still, it beats a harsh word !

But becoming extremely proficient with these poofer loads won't translate too well when you put in a load that has a power factor of 180 or better.

.

 

[corpsmanup!]

"I am 58,..but I remember my dad using nothing but an SAA in .45LC,..the only handgun he owned for most of his years. He carried it often,..often concealed,..and he was VERY good with it in both speed,..and in accuracy. I'd never want to try to stand him down if that's all he had. Are there better. yes. Are some faster? Yes....to shoot,..and to reload. But if a man chooses to carry an SA hogleg,...who's to say he's wrong in doing so. If he's THAT good with it,...I for one am not going to argue the point. "


Bruce Lee said "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.“

I carry a SA SBH with Hornady 44 specials hollow points- recoils like a 22 with the terminal ballistics of a 45 auto (180gr at 1000/fps) i practice drawing and firing off the hip into targets out in the woods.

I don't ever feel undergunned with my sixgun.

How about in the book Sixguns where Elmer Keith talks about Ed Mcgivern (sp?) and some of the demos they both have done? Wouldn't want to be on the recieving end of that team.

 

[Elbert P . Suggins]

David E, you need to quit being so sensitive and putting everybody elses statement into quotes that cause your nickers to get knotted up. I will apologize to you about saying you know not what your talking about, but you take things too seriously during a lively and very interesting discussion on CARL's thread if you have forgotten.

 

[scottishclaymore]

I will say that somebody carrying a SA revolver probably has a lot more confidence in their skill with the weapon than they do in their ultra-cool uber-tacticool crunchenticker that holds 17+ rounds of the latest, biggest, baddest, most powerful round ever.

Just sayin' that I think I would be a lot more afraid to get into a gunfight with a guy with a SA revolver just because he's probably actually confident in his ability to win the fight, instead of just putting his trust in the latest doodad.

If TX ever gets open carry (and we are prayin' hard) I would very much like to get a SA revolver of some sort (probably .357, so I don't have to start reloading for another caliber) and would most certainly wear it everywhere.

 

[kanook]

there was a guy at a cowboy match that shot 5 rounds, reloaded from his rear pants pocket because he didn't have a belt yet and then shooot 5 more rounds hitting the 10" plate at 15 yards all 10 times in 12 seconds. i don't recall him having to readjust the firearm after every shot, only after the reload. he was using 2 hands while shooting as most people are more accurate than single handed

 

[David E]

David E, you need to quit being so sensitive and putting everybody elses statement into quotes

You mean, like this ?

I only do it in an attempt to keep things on track, so most readers will know what post I'm commenting on.

Evenso, people who either didn't read or didn't understand my post say I "don't know anything" then proceed to cite a totally unrelated and undiscussed example to "prove" their point.

You, for example, brought up an entirely unrelated anecdote about how firing single action relates to bullseye shooting.

Carl started the thread about SA's for CCW, if you've forgotten.

A skilled shooter with a decent Single Action is a formidible foe, indeed.

Now, I'm curious....those of you that carry a single action for defense, what is it and what's it loaded with?

Inquiring minds and all !

.

 

[Kleanbore]

Single action revolver for CCW? Probably not the best choice, for several reasons. See this:

http://www.snubnose.info/docs/daovdasa.htm

One thing the SA revolver lacks is a long double action trigger pull. Why is that obvious fact important?

Most self defense situations unfold rapidly. There isn't time to thumb cock a revolver and take careful aim in the way one would do while target shooting. A cocked revolver is dangerous in the adrenaline dump of a lethal force encounter. The trigger is just too light. Its too easy to fire when you don't mean to. There was a well-publicized case in Miami several years back in which a police officer accidentally shot a suspect he was holding at gunpoint with a cocked revolver. The suspect was killed and the officer faced a lengthy court process which ultimately destroyed his career.

In a nervous situation, a cocked revolver is dangerous. When you're really nervous or scared, the heavy double action trigger pull is an asset rather than a liability. I can hear you say, Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire, and that's true, but we also know that people don't always do what they're supposed to do in the stress of a deadly encounter. The police officer in Miami is a good example. I'm sure he had heard the rules. A firm double action trigger can be a welcome piece of insurance against an accidental discharge. With a DAO revolver, manual cocking isn't possible, nor is it possible to be accused of negligently cocking the hammer in a civil action which could follow a self defense shooting.

In addition, in most justifiable shooting situations involving CCW encounters, it is necessary to draw and fire from concealment very quickly indeed, and only after imminent danger has manifested itself. Regardless of how fast Bob Munden or others can draw from special holsters on the belt mimicking fictional "wild west" scenarios, getting a concealed gun with a hammer out from under clothing in an instant is something I don't want to have to try. My CCW instructor said "a hammer is a hook."

Hard to argue with that.

For CCW there are much better choices. The only SA gun I'd want to try is a 1911, and that's not my choice, either.

At the range, on the trail, or hunting? That's a different story.

 

[1911Tuner]

Kleanbore...Time for my irritating penchant for Point/Counterpoint.
Don't take it personally.

My CCW instructor said "a hammer is a hook."

The same thing can be said of a rear sight or practically anything that protrudes from the gun.

Apparently your instructor doesn't understand how to draw a revolver with an exposed hammer from concealment. The thumb is correctly placed on the spur, acting as a shroud. It's worked since revolvers have been carried concealed. It also expedites cocking the hammer on a single-action revolver...which is precisely what was done. The gun was cocked before it ever cleared leather, and the finger entered the trigger guard as it was coming on target.

I can hear you say, Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire, and that's true, but we also know that people don't always do what they're supposed to do in the stress of a deadly encounter.

Indeed. The savvy gunmen understand that the practice of keeping the finger off the trigger until the decision is made to fire can get'em killed if their adversary knows a little about reaction times.
It's a point that I've demonstrated to several hig-speed/low drag types...and I mean the real McCoys, not the wannabes...much to their consternation.

I'll say it straight up, so there won't be any misunderstanding.


If I have a gun in one hand...pointed straight down at the ground, and you or anyone else points a weapon at me with finger alongside the trigger guard...and we're at standing apart at a distance of up to 30 feet...I'll shoot you before your finger hits the trigger.

I've been demonstrating this for several years to old and young alike...cops and Joe Citizens. Nobody has beaten me yet. There have been a few who were able to fire at the same time if their fingers were on the trigger...but they knew that I was going to move, and were anticipating it.

Please note that I'm old and slower than I once was...with a touch of bursitis in my shoulders. Someone young, athletic, and agile...with a little practice under their belts? Finger off trigger=a tag on your toe if you stand still while you face'em down. Guaranteed.

 

[goodtime]

re:

"If I have a gun in one hand...pointed straight down at the ground, and you or anyone else points a weapon at me with finger alongside the trigger guard...and we're at standing apart at a distance of up to 30 feet...I'll shoot you before your finger hits the trigger."

1911Tuner is right, and the reason is simple -- Action is faster than REaction.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

What advantage does an SA have? A DA can be fired SA, while an SA can't be fired DA.

And those who have practiced more can shoot a single action faster than most people can imagine.

If you had spent the time practicing with a DA revolver, you'd be able to shoot even faster.

I can think of a lot of guns I would rather not have in a gun fight then a 4 3/4" Colt SAA full of 250 grain Keith SWC..

I might not win, but the other guy won't either

I thought the whole point of carrying was to win, meaning surviving.

And seriously, SA vs. DA isn't worth a fight to the death.

 

[Kleanbore]

The same thing [("a hammer is a hook")] can be said of a rear sight or practically anything that protrudes from the gun.

True fact! That entered into my choice of weapon.

Apparently your instructor doesn't understand how to draw a revolver with an exposed hammer from concealment. The thumb is correctly placed on the spur, acting as a shroud. It's worked since revolvers have been carried concealed. It also expedites cocking the hammer on a single-action revolver...which is precisely what was done.

Not wanting to have to do so is not the same as not knowing. He uses a 1911 at the range, and carries a Glock.

The gun was cocked before it ever cleared leather, and the finger entered the trigger guard as it was coming on target.

"Was" may be the operative word here. To the best of my knowledge, no one responsibly recommends cocking anything other that a 1911 in a self-defense situation these days.

The removal of hammer spurs from police revolvers some decades ago, and the intrduction of a lot of DAO and functionally similar semi-automatics, both resulted from the desire to reduce the number of unintended discharges in high-adrenaline situations.

I know several current and one former policemen, and all of their training and advice is to never cock the hammer on a revolver in an SD situation.

 

[rcmodel]

It might behoove a SAA guy to learn the "Slip-Hammer" technique for close range "Holding the perp at gun-point" work.

The hammer is never cocked into SA mode, so it is perfectly safe, but you can get off a shot one-handed and hit at "holding perp at gun-point" range as fast as most people can pull the trigger on a DA.

rc

 

[JImbothefiveth]

I think everyone should calm down. SA vs. DA isn't worth a fight to the death.

Noone's saying a good SA shooter isn't deadly, it's just that a good DA shooter would probably be better in a self-defense situation.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

There are nice old ladies in Idaho who could draw and shoot you center-mass with a single action before you had your DA out of its holster -- probably before you could fire a DA that was already out. One-handed.

And there's also Jerry Miculek. I think we should be focusing on what the average CCW'er can do, not what (Olympic medalist) can do.

It occurs to me that people who say that a SAA wouldn't work for CC are a step away from people who say that a DA revolver is antiquated technology and inferior in a SD situation

Not quite. A DA revolver actually does ave some advantages over a semi-auto. An SA revolver has or no advantages.

All of us that are proficient in SA can attest to the fact that SA is some of the time quicker than DA but ALL OF THE TIME more accurate.

How accurate? A DA is probably faster for "defensive" accuracy, and it can also be fired SA.

So do you think Bob Munden is handicapped by it at all?

Yeah, compared to Jerry Mickulek.

more people have been hurt with a glock trigger.

That's because there are more glocks. If a glock trigger is bad, a SA trigger would be even worse.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

I will say that somebody carrying a SA revolver probably has a lot more confidence in their skill with the weapon than they do in their ultra-cool uber-tacticool crunchenticker that holds 17+ rounds of the latest, biggest, baddest, most powerful round ever.

That's a mindset problem, not an equipment problem. For instance, Todd Jarret, even though he uses autoloaders with high-capacity magazines, has a lot more skill than the average SA shooter

Just sayin' that I think I would be a lot more afraid to get into a gunfight with a guy with a SA revolver just because he's probably actually confident in his ability to win the fight, instead of just putting his trust in the latest doodad.

Once again, not an equipment problem.

 

[1911Tuner]

Action is faster than REaction.

That's something that's been a real eye-opener for some of the locals around here...cops included...who feel like they've "got the drop" on somebody just because they've got a gun pointed at'em. The average gangsta/banga/tweaker...sure. If they get unlucky enough to run into somebody who understands that simple fact...they lose. That's precisely how Clyde Barrow managed to come out on top of so many encounters with the police. He was a master of the snap-shot, and he knew that he could work inside their reaction times.

Was" may be the operative word here. To the best of my knowledge, no one responsibly recommends cocking anything other that a 1911 in a self-defense situation these days.

In that case, you'd probably consider me as irresponsible. When I work with a 1911, I wipe the safety off as my hand hits the gun, and my finger goes into the trigger guard just as it clears leather. It's a variation of Jordan's "arc" that's essentially an automatic fire response. Once the move starts, it's hard to stop it in mid-frame without firing. Mucho slo-mo practice is required if one is to avoid shooting himself in the leg or foot.

So many of the instructors of modern times have never really been in gunfights. Sorry, but shooting it out with a drunk or a tweaked meth-head who makes a threatening move with a gun isn't quite the same thing as facing a Clyde barrow or a Wes Hardin or a Luke Short or a John Henry Holliday.
There are such people out there. People who are on the bad side of the tracks, who are well-versed in gun handling. These men will kill you without blinking...and they don't much care if they get shot in the process.

"Nothin' unnerves a man quite as bad as seein' you standin' stock-still...takin' dead aim at him...when you oughta be runnin' like a striped-ass ape."

--Willie Nelson in Barbarosa--

John Wayne's character J.B. Books in the film "The Shootist" summed it up perfectly while explaining his success as a gunfighter to Ron Howard.

"Gillam. It's not always about being fast or even accurate that counts. It's being willing. I've found that most men, regardless of need or purpose...aren't willing. They'll take a breath or blink an eye before they pull the trigger. I won't."

 

[qwert65]

David E I understand your points. My point was that yes I agree, shooting fullhouse 45colt loads slows me down. You had made a statement that it was not possible to be as fast shooting as DA as SA with a competent defense load. I can tell you for a fact that I can draw and fire and hit a target at 7yds using 45acp SD loads in my BH just as quick as a double action.

 

[JShirley]

I only find SA wheelguns to be lacking in the reload and CCW departments...

John