SA Revolvers for CCW

[MCgunner]

I got a kick out of looking back into this thread. Some of you probably haven't ever been to the black powder forum where carrying a '51 Navy or some such comes up from time to time. I don't do it, DO have a 5.5" '58 Remmy loaded and hanging on my bed post, though. Likely NEVER need it out here, but it sure looks cool on that bed posts and pleases me. If I needed it, I have no doubt it'd work, too, just as well as a Browning High Power, to get me to my shotgun that sits a few feet away.

 

[David E]

David E. In all, wether some posters opted to become uhh, detertmined, in their stance or counter points, it's pretty clear that the majority of folks who carry a single action are very well versed in both the atributes and the downside to the firearm they carry. I dont always carry my Ruger, nor do I suscribe to the thought that I need 17 rounds either. your personal experience must guide the choices one makes for a thoughtfull decision. All in all, a stimulating thread so far.

But here's the main issue: some posters dismiss the shortcomings, then say they understand them better than anyone, yet fail to address them, much less offer their solutions for minimizing them.

Instead, they make untrue, unsubstantiated claims then mock anyone that challenges those claims.

Wouldn't it be nice if someone who claims to be "quite proficient" with his single action (Foghorn Leghorn voice: "I say, I say, boy, I can shoot 5, reload and shoot 5 more in 15 seconds!") would, instead of being caustic and hostile, shared specifics about his shooting techniques, strategies, etc to show how he makes a single action work for him?

Yeah, that'd be nice. And we'd all learn something.

 

[dickydalton]

But here's the main issue: some posters dismiss the shortcomings, then say they understand them better than anyone, yet fail to address them, much less offer their solutions for minimizing them.

Instead, they make untrue, unsubstantiated claims then mock anyone that challenges those claims.

Wouldn't it be nice if someone who claims to be "quite proficient" with his single action (Foghorn Leghorn voice: "I say, I say, boy, I can shoot 5, reload and shoot 5 more in 15 seconds!") would, instead of being caustic and hostile, shared specifics about his shooting techniques, strategies, etc to show how he makes a single action work for him?

Yeah, that'd be nice. And we'd all learn something.

Ok, David. One more time. In 1973, as four determined thugs came at my truck to disable it at an Illinois truck stop I pulled my Blackhawk 357 out of my waistband, cocked it and pointed it between the four. I told them that I would shoot them if they didn't get the F out of there. They left first, I got fueled and then I left. There, I say There, was my strategy, son.

 

[David E]

Ok, David. One more time. In 1973, as four determined thugs came at my truck to disable it at an Illinois truck stop I pulled my Blackhawk 357 out of my waistband, cocked it and pointed it between the four. I told them that I would shoot them if they didn't get the F out of there. They left first, I got fueled and then I left. There, I say There, was my strategy, son.

That was a felonious act on your part in IL in 1973. Seems like a better strategy would've been to drive away, but glad it worked out for you.

Can you shoot 5, reload and shoot 5 more in 15 seconds too?

Cool!

 

[Sistema1927]

Lots of chest thumping here.

Hopefully we all know that ANY handgun is a compromise. If I knew that I was going to be in a gunfight today I would not leave the house without a rifle (and probably enlist a couple of buddies to accompany me along with their rifles).

However, like most people, odds are that I will never again need to even present my weapon, let alone pull the trigger. In the one instance in the past where I had to point a handgun at another human being it would not have mattered if it was a Browning HP 9mm (which it was), a 1911, a P380, or a Ruger Vaquero. I didn't need to pull the trigger, and the mere presence of a handgun allowed me to walk away safely.

These days, during the spring and summer, my dress often dictates that I carry a Kahr PM9 in a pocket holster. It is a compromise. In the winter I carry either a Glock G26 or a Springfield XDs. They are both compromises. From time to time I have even carried a Ruger Birdshead Vaquero in .45 Colt, just because I felt like it. It was a compromise. As are both the NAA .22 magnum and the S&W 22-4 .45 ACP that I have occasionally carried in the past.

All handguns are a compromise, but it is better to have one and not need it than to need it and not have it.

 

[MCgunner]

 

[dickydalton]

That was a felonious act on your part in IL in 1973. Seems like a better strategy would've been to drive away, but glad it worked out for you.

Can you shoot 5, reload and shoot 5 more in 15 seconds too?

Cool!

Probably not but who cares? Just watching you pound your keyboard is scaring the bejebus out of me. Why don't you quit beating a dead horse or just paste your credentials that make you the expert on this subject?

 

[David E]

Probably not but who cares? Just watching you pound your keyboard is scaring the bejebus out of me. Why don't you quit beating a dead horse or just paste your credentials that make you the expert on this subject?

Wow, your hostility is.....interesting!

I never claimed to be an expert. I engage in dialog that I think is beneficial with people that claim to know about a topic, so I ask questions. The funny part is, I find that that people that profess to know the most about something take it as a personal attack if you ask them hard questions. Like, "how did you arrive at that conclusion?" Or "Can you cite an example?"

Some posters here remind me of an online exchange I once had:

Poster: "Glocks Rule!"

Me: "why do you like Glocks so much?"

Poster: "You hate Glocks because you never shot one! If you did, then you couldn't hit with it. You're too stupid to own a Glock. Go back to your antiquated revolvers, you worthless Glock hater!"

True story. I didn't say anything negative about his beloved Glock, but suddenly I "just didn't know" about Glocks, so I shouldn't post anything further.

Just because I ask a question, it doesn't mean I disagree with you. It also doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about.

I agree with Craig that single actions are fun to shoot. It was my first and second style of gun. I've shot 1000's and 1000's of rounds thru those two and several others.

As I already posted, I have carried single actions for defense before, but nowadays, it's for woods carry. But I know my followup shots won't be as fast, especially one handed, and I dispute those that claim otherwise when legitimate defense ammo is used. I don't worry about the speed of the reload, but I'll have at least two more cylinderfuls on me. What good is being able to shoot 5, reload, shoot 5 more in 15 seconds if you don't carry a reload?
(That poster says he doesn't carry a reload ever!)

I don't expect a long drawn out fight, but I won't go home with an empty gun.

 

[dickydalton]

Wow, your hostility is.....interesting!

I never claimed to be an expert. I engage in dialog that I think is beneficial with people that claim to know about a topic, so I ask questions. The funny part is, I find that that people that profess to know the most about something take it as a personal attack if you ask them hard questions. Like, "how did you arrive at that conclusion?" Or "Can you cite an example?"

Some posters here remind me of an online exchange I once had:

Poster: "Glocks Rule!"

Me: "why do you like Glocks so much?"

Poster: "You hate Glocks because you never shot one! If you did, then you couldn't hit with it. You're too stupid to own a Glock. Go back to your antiquated revolvers, you worthless Glock hater!"

True story. I didn't say anything negative about his beloved Glock, but suddenly I "just didn't know" about Glocks, so I shouldn't post anything further.

Just because I ask a question, it doesn't mean I disagree with you. It also doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about.

I agree with Craig that single actions are fun to shoot. It was my first and second style of gun. I've shot 1000's and 1000's of rounds thru those two and several others.

As I already posted, I have carried single actions for defense before, but nowadays, it's for woods carry. But I know my followup shots won't be as fast, especially one handed, and I dispute those that claim otherwise when legitimate defense ammo is used. I don't worry about the speed of the reload, but I'll have at least two more cylinderfuls on me. What good is being able to shoot 5, reload, shoot 5 more in 15 seconds if you don't carry a reload?
(That poster says he doesn't carry a reload ever!)

I don't expect a long drawn out fight, but I won't go home with an empty gun.

All I am saying to you is I have been there and done that so your scholarly attempts to ridicule those SA shooters are a joke to me. Have you Ever had to use a gun in a SD situation? I have zero hostility towards you other than observing a lot of "you know more than they do". Have a nice night, I am done with this as it reminds me of talking to a teenager caught misbehaving.

 

[dodo bird]

A lot of people carry pocket pistols that hold 6-7 rounds without reloads. I don't see a difference. David be happy we live a country that we CAN have a choice of whatever we want to carry. I wouldn't feel undergunned at all with a SAA. Might as well tell the guys who use a coach gun without reloads for home defense that it's a bad choice. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

[CraigC]

You claimed in Post #54: Nothing is faster from leather to the first shot than a Colt SAA or similar.

Nothing confining the statement to your alleged ability, just a blanket statement about the platform. No proof, no facts.

Well, we have my opinion and your opinion. No facts presented either way so.....

...instead of being caustic and hostile...

After getting put through the wringer by you, tomrkba and others, you accuse me of being caustic and hostile? That's funny.

Wouldn't it be nice if someone who claims to be "quite proficient" with his single action (Foghorn Leghorn voice: "I say, I say, boy, I can shoot 5, reload and shoot 5 more in 15 seconds!") would, instead of being caustic and hostile, shared specifics about his shooting techniques, strategies, etc to show how he makes a single action work for him?

Wouldn't that have been a more appropriate way to begin this discussion? The opportunity for civilized, productive discussion has long passed.

 

[David E]

My first post was #65. It said:

Citing how fast a Cowboy Action shooter can run their gun is totally moot, since they're shooting mouse fart loads using both hands.

Show me how fast they can go with full power defense ammo.

How fast could the regular guy draw and fire 3 shots on a 5 yd target....one handed?


Just two sole questions that never got answers.

IBTL

 

[dickydalton]

My first post was #65. It said:

Citing how fast a Cowboy Action shooter can run their gun is totally moot, since they're shooting mouse fart loads using both hands.

Show me how fast they can go with full power defense ammo.

How fast could the regular guy draw and fire 3 shots on a 5 yd target....one handed?


Just two sole questions that never got answers.

IBTL

Have you ever been in a self defense position that required you to point a weapon at someone or at least show it to someone to make them stop an attack?
One question you keep avoiding as you attack single action posters. (Remember I don't carry a SA for defense)

 

[CraigC]

Citing how fast a Cowboy Action shooter can run their gun is totally moot, since they're shooting mouse fart loads using both hands.

I never made a CAS shooter reference. If you want to see what one can do with full power loads, find it yourself. Fact is, they can run them very fast, just as a competitive shooter with a 9mm or .45ACP shooting mousefart loads, full power loads take more time to recover from. No platform is exempt.

One handed shooting is slower but that is also true for any other platform.

How fast could the regular guy draw and fire 3 shots on a 5 yd target....one handed?

No idea. I don't have a timer. Nor do I care to scour the internet to find an example for YOU. If you're so convinced, find it yourself.

 

[murf]

the moderators must be enjoying the holidays. i hope you guys are, too.

to each his (or her) own, and "run what ya brung".

murf

 

[Drail]

I believe that if I were a bad guy and someone pulled a big bore SA revolver on me I would be very afraid. VERY afraid.

 

[John C]

I think one very legitimate PRO for carrying an SA revolver is that if the gun is grabbed, it's unlikely the criminal will immediately be able to shoot it at you. Safeties with which criminals are unfamiliar with have been documented as saving lives during gun grabs. Those additional seconds are time when the assailants hands are busy, and you can run away. This has caused me to seriously re-evaluate my use of a Glock. I still use/own Glocks as my primary handguns, but I feel it's a serious issue, for my potential threats.

 

[Ed Ames]

I don't know about that. It seems like people need to be trained NOT to cock double action revolvers. Copying bad TV/movie gun handling. Maybe you are right but I wouldn't place bets.

As for the general discussion, there isn't a significant difference between any commonly available repeating firearm in the hands of a typical user. A DA revolver, SA revolver, semi-auto, etc. will offer about the same benefit. I have watched "more than a few" shooters get their DA revolver tangled up during reloads, and judging from what I see at the local ranges 5 shots in a row from a pistol is pretty good and most people spend a lifetime staring at something like a stovepipe rather than clearing and moving on. I suppose the two shot derringers are an exception, but I just don't see a big difference for joe blow.

For an enthusiast? Loading via a gate may be tedious, or not, depending on personality. For a competitive shooter? Depends on the sport but a SA revolver probably ain't great for IDPA. For a police officer or soldier? They will practice and the semi-auto will have a clear advantage in the real world. For Joe or Jane Nevershoots? Doesn't matter. They are going to cock it anyway because that's what they see on TV, and they aren't going to be smoothly practiced with anything because they will probably fire less than 200 rounds in their entire life, maybe less than 50.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Honestly there is a great deal of good discussion in this thread, I've been monitoring it the past few days and have posted a time or two on it. A lot of passion as well! This thread has also convinced me to buy an 1851 Colt Navy with a Richards Mason cartridge conversion in .38 special, for the purposes of defense whilst traveling.

 

[BSA1]

I am surprised that the Mods have allowed the name calling and arguing to go on as long has it has. But since it is still open;

SA's don't handle heavy recoil better. They roll more in your hand because of the grip shape, this feels more comfortable.
But it means your muzzle is coming off target more, and you are working harder between shots to reacquire your sight picture. You also have to let the gun slide back down in your hand after it rolls up, which means your grip is constantly shifting from recoil and thumb cocking.
Look at a SA vs k or l frame....Compare how high the bore axis is on each in relation to the grip. Combat handguns should have a low bore axis with less muzzle flip, not a higher one with more.

Disadvantage SA.

Although I said I was done with this thread sitting here and sipping my cup of hot cocoa I realized that there is a simple way to avoid having the Single Action roll in your hand.

Shoot a Bisley Model..

I don't know why I overlooked when I commented about installing a Bisley style hammer on a Single Action other than I don't own one and have never care for the grip.

Everything is a compromise. If we prepared ourselves for the worst possible outcome, we'd all be wearing body armor

Very sharp point about not wearing a bullet proof vest. Wearing a bullet proof vest under your shirt daily is very easy, practical and affordable. It may require a slightly larger shirt size in the chest.

Those that keep pounding the need for reloads in case of a gunfight are failing to acknowledge that bullets are going to be incoming at them. (Actually they are failing to acknowledge that one or more of the bullets will find it's mark). All the reloads in the world won't do them a lick of good if one or more of those incoming rounds finds it's mark.

Finally much vile words have been sprewed about tactics. The best counterpoint is too choose the weapon that best suits your strategy if ever confronted by deadly force.

Me? I'm a coward. I am the BIGGEST YELLOW BELLIED COWARD ON THR WITH A YELLOW STREAK A MILE WIDE RUNNING DOWN MY BACK. You even suggest you have a weapon and might hurt me with it, I am walking, NO RUNNING, AWAY FROM POTENTIAL TROUBLE. I refuse to go to areas where trouble may occur and avoid driving through certain parts of town. I work a late shift and my company is on the edge of gang country. Actually it is contested by rival gangs. When I get off I drive a well lite, well traveled road to the Interstate at night with no stops along the way.

The only time I am using deadly force is to protect my family and myself. I will only protect us and myself is when my back is to the wall and I have no other safe way out. Even then I am only using enough force to find a way out and get to safety.

Please feel free to call me any hateful, vile names you wish. I will agree with you.

Time for me to go get another cup of cocoa.

 

[David E]

Have you ever been in a self defense position that required you to point a weapon at someone or at least show it to someone to make them stop an attack?
One question you keep avoiding as you attack single action posters. (Remember I don't carry a SA for defense)

Several times.

Never had to shoot, tho, for which I'm thankful.

 

[David E]

I never made a CAS shooter reference. If you want to see what one can do with full power loads, find it yourself. Fact is, they can run them very fast, just as a competitive shooter with a 9mm or .45ACP shooting mousefart loads, full power loads take more time to recover from. No platform is exempt.

One handed shooting is slower but that is also true for any other platform.



No idea. I don't have a timer. Nor do I care to scour the internet to find an example for YOU. If you're so convinced, find it yourself.

My point was, MY first post was not an attack on you.

You said the SA is fastest to the first shot. It's not.

Rapid fire one handed is a major shortcoming of the SA. No valid response from you there, either.

For someone who claims to know so much about SA's for CCW, you sure don't share very much (any?) useful, concrete info on the matter, which is too bad.

 

[David E]

BSA1 wrote:

Those that keep pounding the need for reloads in case of a gunfight

I haven't been harping on the slow reload aspect, as I think in many cases, the situation will be resolved, one way or another, with the initial gun load. However, it's prudent to CARRY a reload regardless. (One way to speed up the reload is to use an SA chambered in .45 acp and use a 1911 magazine as a "speed loader" of sorts)

are failing to acknowledge that bullets are going to be incoming at them. All the reloads in the world won't do them a lick of good if one or more of those incoming rounds finds it's mark

This is where you lose me. Are you saying it be better to NOT have the ability to reload at all? I'd rather be shot reloading than standing there with an empty gun because I was too stupid or lazy to bring another 1-6 rounds with me.

If the situation isn't resolved with the first 5-6 in the gun, hopefully you're behind cover. Maybe all you have time to load is 1-2 rounds, but that may be enough.

But if I did my part, I should have all the time I need to reload. Just in case it's not really over.

.

 

[RealGun]

I don't know about that. It seems like people need to be trained NOT to cock double action revolvers. Copying bad TV/movie gun handling. Maybe you are right but I wouldn't place bets.

I am going to opt for that light SA trigger (on a cocked DA) whenever time allows.

 

[David E]

I am going to opt for that light SA trigger (on a cocked DA) whenever time allows.

There are those that did that or were accused (without evidence) of doing that and massive legal/incarceration troubles ensued.