SA Revolvers for CCW

[MCgunner]

The counter argument is that the gun rolling in the hand allows the hammer to be under the thumb of the gun hand, so one cocks the hammer while "throwing" the gun back on target.

I use my little finger under the grip to rotate it back as I cock (one handed). It's really very easy and quick and no "throwing" is necessary.

I usually shoot my SA guns two handed, though, but still, my little finger is under the grip frame except on that .357 with the finger groove grips. That gun has killed.......deer and hogs. Didn't really buy it for humans. Actually, I traded a stainless Security Six for it that I didn't much care for.

 

[David E]

I didn't mean "throw" like Roy Rogers on the back of Trigger, it's much smoother than that.

 

[CraigC]

How about this: sheet of copy paper (8.5"x11") at 5 yds, gun in concealable holster, hands at sides. At signal, draw and fire 5 in 6 seconds 2 handed, 7 seconds one handed.

So what are we looking for here? You want to see faster times with an SA from someone who claims to be more proficient with one? The same? Slower? What is an acceptable performance in this exercise? What is not? If we're going to talk numbers then let's quantify how they're judged.

 

[Lucky Derby]

Interesting thread and actually a fun read (yes all 7 pages). I choose to carry a semi-auto for defense because I am more proficient with that type of weapon. Others and their skills do vary of course. Maybe I'm a victim of the modern day propaganda advocating semi-autos and the combat style training with them. Now with all that being said, my second choice for carry would be a double action revolver, and thirdly a single action. You (whoever reads this) of course have many skills which I do not and will never possess - so carry what you may. One last thought....... If I were having breakfast at say Denny's and an older gentleman came in carrying a 45 Colt single action set in a nice leather holster, heck, I'd feel just a little bit safer that day.

I'd pay for his breakfast.

 

[David E]

So what are we looking for here?

Seriously? It's very straight forward. I don't understand your difficulty here, but I'll go thru your questions one at a time.

You want to see faster times with an SA from someone who claims to be more proficient with one?

Um, nooo, I'm curious if someone using a single action revolver for defense can make the SUGGESTED times.

The same?

I'd expect most folks shooting legitimate SD ammo would be faster with a semi auto or DA revolver, but that's not relevant to this discussion.

Slower?

Probably, but again irrelevant.

What is an acceptable performance in this exercise?

All shots on paper within the allotted time.

What is not?

Misses or overtime shots.

If we're going to talk numbers then let's quantify how they're judged

I've broken it down, so i hope that helps you understand the goal. I also hope you understand the drill SUGGESTED is nothing more than a SUGGESTION. There are no mandates or requirements that anyone agree with or perform the SUGGESTED drill.

If anyone has a different drill they think is better, please post it.

 

[CraigC]

I'm curious if someone using a single action revolver for defense can make the SUGGESTED times.

And if they can? Are we going to see an attitude shift if the times are met by a fair margin? I don't see those times as difficult to beat at all.

In your opinion, what sort of times should an accomplished semi-auto or DA shooter make?

I'd expect most folks shooting legitimate SD ammo would be faster with a semi auto or DA revolver, but that's not relevant to this discussion.

Recoil is the great equalizer. It might not be but fractions of a second but we're dealing in fractions of a second. It takes time to recover from recoil, no matter the platform. With an SA, that time is spent not waiting or stroking a DA trigger but cocking the hammer. Since the SA's hammer should be cocked during the draw stroke, this only comes into play during subsequent shots. So yes, I'd expect a seasons SA shooter to do at least as well compared to platforms they're not as proficient with. Perhaps even on par with a shooter of comparable skill with one of those 'other' platforms.

 

[jeepnik]

Okay, 8 pages. Now for the question I like to ask when discussions like this take place.

How many of the posters have actually been in a fire fight? Of those, how many used a handgun? And, of those, how many had to draw and fire in as short a time as possible?

My point, most folks haven't been in a shooting. Those of us that have (military in my case) likely think as I do. The best trained person in the world, might just fold up under the strain, and the least trained might just suck it up and get it done. You just never know how you will react until it happens.

So, for those who haven't been there and done that, I pray you never have to.

 

[David E]

And if they can? Are we going to see an attitude shift if the times are met by a fair margin? I don't see those times as difficult to beat at all.

They are not. The SUGGESTED time is but a threshold, not a goal.

Recoil is the great equalizer. It might not be but fractions of a second but we're dealing in fractions of a second. It takes time to recover from recoil, no matter the platform. With an SA, that time is spent not waiting or stroking a DA trigger but cocking the hammer. Since the SA's hammer should be cocked during the draw stroke, this only comes into play during subsequent shots. So yes, I'd expect a seasons SA shooter to do at least as well compared to platforms they're not as proficient with. Perhaps even on par with a shooter of comparable skill with one of those 'other' platforms.

You base that assertion on what?

You don't own a shot timer and refuse to buy one. That's perfectly fine if you want to cite how well and "fast" you shoot because it "feels" fast to you. You might even impress your buddies.

But since we are "dealing in fractions of a second," as you said, then an electronic shot timer is required.

Folks can carry what they want, but they should recognize and accept the shortcomings in any given design before they do.

 

[CraigC]

You base that assertion on what?

Experience.

The semi-auto or DA revolver are easier to shoot quickly. Which leads many to believe that they are automatically quicker to operate, regardless of any other factor. In the real world, no matter the platform, you have to recover from recoil. That takes time. IMHO, much (not all) of that advantage is lost to recoil. It's not that I don't believe there is a difference. I just don't believe it's as significant as YOU think it is.

That's perfectly fine if you want to cite how well and "fast" you shoot because it "feels" fast to you. You might even impress your buddies.

There are those arrogant assumptions again.

...they should recognize and accept the shortcomings in any given design before they do.

You keep harping on that as if someone is in denial about their existence. We KNOW they exist, we simply work to minimize them.

 

[David E]

Experience.

The semi-auto or DA revolver are easier to shoot quickly. Which leads many to believe that they are automatically quicker to operate, regardless of any other factor. In the real world, no matter the platform, you have to recover from recoil. That takes time. IMHO, much (not all) of that advantage is lost to recoil. It's not that I don't believe there is a difference. I just don't believe it's as significant as YOU think it is.

But.....you simply dont know what the ACTUAL difference is!

As I think about it, I don't know the actual difference, either. It's been a long time since I've compared them. So I'm going to go out and see for myself. I'll use a Ruger .44 BH Anniversary and a Model 29. Might even do the .357 variations as well. I'll do the drills I SUGGESTED previously. Anybody have other drills? Can't get to the range for a few days, tho.

There are those arrogant assumptions again.

YOU said you were pretty fast with your SA in another thread. I was taking you at your word, so how does that make me arrogant?

You keep harping on that as if someone is in denial about their existence. We KNOW they exist, we simply work to minimize them.

YOU know them, but others may not.

You say you "work to minimize them," yet have yet to really acknowledge a shortcoming, much less reveal how, exactly, you "work to minimize them." Cocking the SA during recoil is obvious, but there's more to it than that.

THAT might be useful information.

 

[dickydalton]

I'm thinking you two need to meet in front of the saloon at high noon.

 

[Cump]

How about in the saloon? I know following this thread has made me feel like I need a drink once or twice.

 

[Joe Demko]

I'd like to see this played out. This board, and similar ones, have members who carry SA revolvers as a primary personal defense piece and who express the greatest confidence in their ability to use such. Generally, there is some amount of justification based on trigger time and familiarity.
I'd like to see some results from an SA advocate, however anecdotal. Just basic shooting against a timer stuff with hits on target shown. How fast you can make noise and miss things doesn't matter.
Guns, like many things, tend to get a lot of ego and emotion caught in them. Let's see some times and targets.
I'm not against carrying a SA revolver as I noted upthread. I'm just interested in what advocates can actually do as opposed to what they believe they can do.

 

[AFDavis11]

I don't recall the OP asking for opinions on the matter. He simply said he had made his choice.

He weighed in on his view, that's all. He has decided to carry a single action. He said that he shoots it well and it goes bang every time.

It's done already. Chill out.

 

[MCgunner]

I'm thinking you two need to meet in front of the saloon at high noon.

 

[MCgunner]

This is in the OP...

Yup... There are definitely better choices in Semi-Autos for CCW, but while I own many of them, including Berettas, Sigs, Walthers, and Colts, as well as a GSG AD-OPS 1911, I still like, and do not feel under gunned with a SA 45 Colt Revolver.

I gotta say he and I think a lot alike. I've yet to carry a single action other than my NAAs which don't count, but heck, I have a couple of cap and ball guns I've given thought to. My little .38 UL is a WHOLE lot more handy and concealable, though, and it rides in my pocket 24/7.

But, ya know, if I ever got to OPEN carry someday, I might pack along my Reminton/Pietta. I have a VERY accurate .45 Blackhawk, but the '58 is very handy, not as heavy, and I have a .45ACP conversion for it.

 

[David E]

I'm just interested in what advocates can actually do as opposed to what they believe they can do.

This is the crux of the matter, isn't it?

I've seen and heard many a shooter say how fast they were. Sometimes, they held the belief erroneously, but could cite how that belief came to be.
There was a cop who thought he had a one second reload. He based this on a course of fire that had a one second delay between target facings that you were to reload between. The problem was, the targets turned slow and had a pneumatic "whoosh" that preceded the turn. Long story short, he actually had 3-4 seconds to do his reload.

But most others "feel" they are fast or good, but have nothing to base that on beyond their "feeling" about it.

Now, please understand that may not be the case here.

As I said, I'll go to the range this week and make some comparisons between SA and DA revolvers.

But to be honest, I'm reluctant to post my results. In Post #67 I SUGGESTED a drill and even specified it was a SUGGESTION.

Yet, despite that, Mavracer and CraigC interpreted my SUGGESTED drill was instead a requirement. And by what authority did I have to impose such a requirement on others?

It will be charged that:

1) I didn't try hard enough with the SA so as to support my argument,

2) I am simply not skilled enough with an SA, which supports their argument.

One may claim they could do it better/faster with their SA than I did with mine, but they don't own a shot timer and therefore can't be proven wrong.

So I'm only doing this for MY edification, no one else's.

(But if my SA times are within a 1/2 second of the DA, I'll have to post that)

Either way, I'd be happy to meet these guys IN a bar. I'll even buy the first round!

 

[RealGun]

But to be honest, I'm reluctant to post my results.

Don't take the bait. There is no right, final answer. You're all probably faster than any bad guy, and the rest is settled in competition.

 

[TennJed]

I don't recall the OP asking for opinions on the matter. He simply said he had made his choice.

He weighed in on his view, that's all. He has decided to carry a single action. He said that he shoots it well and it goes bang every time.

It's done already. Chill out.

best post yet . if someone wants to carry a SA for self defense, more power to them. there is nothing wrong with it

 

[wheelyfun66]

Blah, Blah, Blah.........

I concealed and carried my Ruger Birdshead 45ACP in an El Paso Saddlery IWB holster, all day today.

It rode tight to my body, concealed under just a simple untucked tee shirt, and I felt that, if I needed to defend my life, I could draw, cock, and fire as needed.

Yes, I have been in a firefight, in Iraq.
No, I did NOT have a single action revolver with me at the time, but made do with my M-4

Sometimes I carry a fixed blade knife (IWB), sometimes I carry a 1911 (IWB), sometimes I carry a Glock or snub nose revolver (IWB) and yes.....

I carry a darn Single action revolver....IWB!

 

[Joe Demko]

And your point is?

 

[David E]

Wheelyfun, thanks for posting your holster choice for your SA. Some have claimed the SA is fastest to the first shot out of a holster, but no one has posted the time it takes for them to do that from a concealable carry holster.

Since CraigC makes his own, I was wondering what type of holster he uses, as well.

It matters to me in that I want to test that theory, but needed to know the holster type.

I have pondered the possibility of comparing my SA speed one handed to a fairly inexperienced DA shooter. I'm pretty sure I'd beat him accuracy-wise, but I'm not sure time-wise. Not sure if our schedules will agree, tho

If anyone has any yseful input about the matter, please post it.

 

[Sam Cade]

Hey look, a fast draw competition among Mods to see who can close this one first, since it looks like the course has been run.