SA Revolvers for CCW

[David E]

Like I told you before, whenever you're ready to buy me a timer, I'll get one.

As I told YOU before, there are Shot Timer apps available for smart phones that are FREE!

Why, because you can't do it fast?

No, because YOU can't do it as fast as you think you can.

I think we're all well aware of its limitations.

Your posts don't indicate that.

Prove it wrong.

My fastest draw with a semi-auto from a practical holster with hands at sides start is a witnessed 45/100ths. What's yours with an SA? Remember, practical holster, hands at sides start.

If you think a single action is supposed to be sliding around in your hand while you're shooting it, you're doing it wrong and should be doing more reading in this thread than responding. More rhetoric from those that don't know.

Interesting. Your folklore gets challenged and it can only be by those that "don't know." Makes it convenient for you to stop any critical, objective thinking, doesn't it?

If I HAD to spend the time I spend with SA's with Glocks or DA's, I wouldn't shoot at all.

I agree SA's are fun to shoot! I've fired many, many 1000's of rounds thru my stable of Single Actions, including some CAS (Sorry to undercut your "you don't know" argument)

 

[David E]

I am amazed at how many "experts" on here like to ridicule Cowboy Action shooters, and dismiss their proficiency with handguns. For some odd reason I was thinking that maybe, just maybe, they might also shoot some "real" ammo like the "experts" on here do. A few posters need a course in civility to practice with.:banghead:

I don't ridicule them, they are fun to watch and the matches are fun to shoot. But when someone invariably points to them citing how fast single actions can be fired, I simply point out their "rapid fire" abilities depend on TWO hands and low power ammo.

You can't count on two hands being available in a defensive situation and using low power ammo is ill advised for defending your life.

The thread title is Single Actions for CCW, but some folks think the merits of single actions themselves or shooting them at all is being attacked or challenged.

 

[jeepnik]

Yep, things like, he used a handgun from the 19th century. Gee that thing is an antique, he sure wasn't planning on a mass shooting, etc.

Oh, by the way, I have been in a shooting since 1970 (long ago and far away), I seriously doubt I'll ever be in another. But should it happen, if I can't hit what I want with six rounds, I can drift away in the smoke screen.

 

[dickydalton]

I don't ridicule them, they are fun to watch and the matches are fun to shoot. But when someone invariably points to them citing how fast single actions can be fired, I simply point out their "rapid fire" abilities depend on TWO hands and low power ammo.

You can't count on two hands being available in a defensive situation and using low power ammo is ill advised for defending your life.

The thread title is Single Actions for CCW, but some folks think the merits of single actions themselves or shooting them at all is being attacked or challenged.

One last time......
Do you think it is at all possible that they also practice shooting full power ammunition with only one hand? Or that maybe they have a few SD rounds squirreled away for CC. Or do you think that CA is All that they are able to do?
Sheesh!

 

[David E]

One last time......
Do you think it is at all possible that they also practice shooting full power ammunition with only one hand? Or that maybe they have a few SD rounds squirreled away for CC. Or do you think that CA is All that they are able to do?
Sheesh!

A bit touchy are we?

I HOPE the CAS shooter (or anyone else choosing a single action revolver for CCW) loads and practices with a viable defense loading.

But the videos I've seen of a CAS shooter (usually posted by someone pointing to a CAS shooter to verify their "a single action is just as fast!" claims) always is using mouse fart loads.

I'd like to see a given CAS shooter do the same thing with light loads, then immediately do it again with full power defense loads. Compare the speed and accuracy. Now repeat, one handed. Compare results.

I don't know why this request gets some folks panties all bunched up.

 

[couldbeanyone]

Never ceases to amaze me how vested people are in their opinions. They just can't stand for anyone to not agree with them.
I think cowboy action is really stupid. I really don't care how quickly you can empty your SAA. I would rather have a good center mass hit than three marginal hits. Anybody ever look at the size of cowboy action targets?
Now, to make sure everyone one gets butt hurt. I don't give a rip about ipsc shooting either. Way too much focus on shooting a lot as fast as you can get even marginal hits.
How many times have we read about accounts of modern shootouts where people have nearly emptied their magazine before they bother to slow down and take good aim and get a good hit. Gee, wonder what mindset fosters this kind of performance.
I say shoot what you shoot most accurately with the least concentration. I, will strive to take my time....quickly.
You don't like my mindset, tough. I don't really care what you think any more than you really care what I think.

 

[TennJed]

Never ceases to amaze me how vested people are in their opinions. They just can't stand for anyone to not agree with them.
I think cowboy action is really stupid. I really don't care how quickly you can empty your SAA. I would rather have a good center mass hit than three marginal hits. Anybody ever look at the size of cowboy action targets?
Now, to make sure everyone one gets butt hurt. I don't give a rip about ipsc shooting either. Way too much focus on shooting a lot as fast as you can get even marginal hits.
How many times have we read about accounts of modern shootouts where people have nearly emptied their magazine before they bother to slow down and take good aim and get a good hit. Gee, wonder what mindset fosters this kind of performance.
I say shoot what you shoot most accurately with the least concentration. I, will strive to take my time....quickly.
You don't like my mindset, tough. I don't really care what you think any more than you really care what I think.

Looks like you are pretty vested in your opinion

 

[CraigC]

Before this goes any further, I've never fired a shot at a CAS match. I don't practice with mousefart loads so all the negative rhetoric about CAS shooters can be directed elsewhere.

As I told YOU before, there are Shot Timer apps available for smart phones that are FREE!

Not mine.

No, because YOU can't do it as fast as you think you can.

So I'm not smart enough to know my relative speed with different guns? So I don't know how fast I am but you do? And I'm the one being rude and bullying folks??? If you're so omnipotent, what do I need a timer for???

My fastest draw with a semi-auto from a practical holster with hands at sides start is a witnessed 45/100ths. What's yours with an SA? Remember, practical holster, hands at sides start.

No idea, I thought we covered that. However, I'm no competing against YOU.

Interesting. Your folklore gets challenged and it can only be by those that "don't know." Makes it convenient for you to stop any critical, objective thinking, doesn't it?

Yes, it's painfully obvious that it always comes from those who don't know. Never from those that do. Never from anyone with an appreciable level of skill. Always from those that have one and shoot it every once in a while, at best. I'll flip tat, it's real convenient for guys that shoot competition with DA's and autos to act like experts with a platform they have no investment in. Isn't it?

I'd like to see a given CAS shooter do the same thing with light loads, then immediately do it again with full power defense loads. Compare the speed and accuracy. Now repeat, one handed. Compare results.

Again, DA's and autos are immune to these phenomena??? Autos are slower to operate with one hand than two?

All the pretty shiny gun pics don't make up for how rude you have been here, and in many other threads where you decide to "enlighten" us with your insults and bully tactics.
Hard to take you seriously when I see you in thread after thread belittle people, then throw up some pretty pics to somehow legitimize your behavior.
Just another tool in the shed.

That's laughable. I post pics to refute an offensive, condescending and belittling post and I'm the troll, the tool, the one being rude???

 

[couldbeanyone]

TennJed, yes, I am vested in my opinion. But, the difference is I don't feel like I must force everyone to see it my way.
I think most any type of gun will do, if the shooter can put the bullets where they need to go. What gun fits different people will vary. So choose what fits you, not me.
Also, although I don't see the point of cowboy action, I won't post 20 times in a thread trying to convince you that your an idiot if you do like it.

 

[David E]

They make shot timers for smartphones

Not mine.

Have you even looked?

So I'm not smart enough to know my relative speed with different guns?

Do you have a bionic brain with built chronometer that measures to 1/100th of a second? Me neither. That's why I need a timer.

So I don't know how fast I am

Nope.

but you do?

Nope. Only that there's a 99.99% chance you're slower than you think

If you're so omnipotent, what do I need a timer for???

To progress as a shooter.

No idea, However, I'm no competing against YOU.

No, you're competing against yourself. But without a shot timer to accurately measure your skills, ALL you have to go on is "feeling." ("Hey, that felt pretty dadgum fast that time! I rock!")

Yes, it's painfully obvious that it always comes from those who don't know. Never from those that do. Never from anyone with an appreciable level of skill.

Soooo, if someone disagrees with you, you simply dismiss them as "they don't know, because they disagree with me!" This implies that YOU know all, know best and have the highest skill level.

I'd ask you to prove it, but then you'd only refuse. You know, to maintain the delusion and all....

I wonder if a basic skill level drill could be agreed upon to establish a "good enough" threshold for choosing a single action revolver for CCW.

 

[jimbo555]

Strawhat has a basic drill in post #79. 12 shots in 25sec. at 7yards

 

[CraigC]

Have you even looked?

Jesus Christ, yes I looked. No app for my phone.

To progress as a shooter.

I don't need a timer, I can just ask you.

No, you're competing against yourself.

No David, I'm competing against the thug who just put me in a position to have to use deadly force. This is single actions for CCW, not competition other than CAS. You've got your head so buried in IDPA or IPSC or whatever it is you do that you can't see anything else.

Soooo, if someone disagrees with you, you simply dismiss them as "they don't know, because they disagree with me!" This implies that YOU know all, know best and have the highest skill level.

No, they obviously don't know because they display ignorance. I can disagree all day long but I won't have someone whose knowledge is lacking in a certain area tell me I'm wrong......with nothing but their opinion, when I know I'm right. Do you see me on the autoloader forum telling folks they're doing something wrong? No. Rather than assuming you're talking to a moron, one might assume the opposite could be true, for a change.

Only that there's a 99.99% chance you're slower than you think

Even if that were true, what difference would it make? Is one not allowed to carry a handgun for self defense unless they meet David E's requirements? Is firing five shots, reloading and firing five more in 15secs not good enough for the overlord???

The question is, why does your perceived reality require me to be wrong?

 

[David E]

Strawhat has a basic drill in post #79. 12 shots in 25sec. at 7yards

I was hoping for something more practical, geared towards CCW purposes.

Perhaps 3 IPSC targets 5 yds down range, one yard apart, edge to edge. Gun in concealable holster. At signal, draw and fire 5 shots total. Two targets will be hit twice, the remaining target once. Let's set the time frame at 5 seconds for one hand, 4 seconds for two hands.

B and C zone hits add 1/4 second, D zone hits add 1/2 second.

Thoughts?

 

[David E]

I don't need a timer, I can just ask you.

Ok. You're not as fast as you think.

No, they obviously don't know because they display ignorance. I can disagree all day long but I won't have someone whose knowledge is lacking in a certain area tell me I'm wrong......with nothing but their opinion, when I know I'm right.

What, exactly, am I wrong about? Be specific. Also, what are you right about? When asked specific questions, you say "I don't know" a lot, so I'm unsure what you think you're right about.

Rather than assuming you're talking to a moron, one might assume the opposite could be true, for a change.

You should heed your own advice.

Even if that were true, what difference would it make? Is one not allowed to carry a handgun for self defense unless they meet David E's requirements?

I don't care what you carry. I bet you'd do alright in most situations. But I don't understand why you insist things are different than reality

Is firing five shots, reloading and firing five more in 15secs not good enough for the overlord???

What gun? Load? Distance? Target? Hits?

The question is, why does your perceived reality require me to be wrong?

I don't require you to be wrong, but you've failed to back up your claims multiple times.

 

[Risky buisness]

"I wonder if a basic skill level drill could be agreed upon to establish a "good enough" threshold for choosing a single action revolver for CCW."
Lets see if I understand this statement.. A person who carries a single action should be judged, obstensivly, by your criterion to be allowed to carry one? I really hope I'm misreading your intent by this statement. However it does appear that your opinion of single actions is, at least, poor, or for the purposes of this conversation they are unsuitable. Is this close to what you are alluding too?

 

[CraigC]

I don't require you to be wrong, but you've failed to back up your claims multiple times.

My claim that MY competence with the single action is greater than MY competence with anything else? Other than a video demonstration, how exactly would I go about backing up my claims and what difference would it make? I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do and would never presume to.

 

[dickydalton]

Ok. You're not as fast as you think.



What, exactly, am I wrong about? Be specific. Also, what are you right about? When asked specific questions, you say "I don't know" a lot, so I'm unsure what you think you're right about.



You should heed your own advice.



I don't care what you carry. I bet you'd do alright in most situations. But I don't understand why you insist things are different than reality



What gun? Load? Distance? Target? Hits?



I don't require you to be wrong, but you've failed to back up your claims multiple times.

OK David. 40 years ago my carry weapon was a Model 29 S&W 4" and a guy that had just robbed a gun shop tried to carjack me. He had 6 handguns he had just stolen and at one time held one to my head as he was telling me where to drive. In the end my 29 ended up in his mouth and he dropped his gun. He went to jail and I went home. I could have shot him but I didn't. I don't shoot cowboy action and I don't pretend to be an "expert" on SD like you. One thing I will say is that was ONE of Three times in my life that I used a weapon to protect myself and one of the other times all I had was a Ruger Blackhawk 357 and I seem to have survived.
Good Luck with the rest of your life.

 

[Drail]

It's absolutely incredible that the human race survived before double stack 9mm pistols were invented. We should have all been wiped out in the late 1800s. I mean, all we had were SA revolvers. I think the fastest recorded times for a draw and shoot on target are still held by SA revolver shooters. I could be wrong.

 

[tomrkba]

Guys--let's all calm down and help out the OP. The OP just wanted to know about the SA revolver as a carry gun.

How about the guys who carry them list both the pros and cons of the platform? Let's let the SA guys talk about their gun. Keep out stats, times and so on. Let the OP worry about speed and times. Then list how you get around, or at least handle, the cons. If the answer is you don't, then indicate it in a note or leave it blank.

Some talk about holsters will also help the OP.

I am interested in speed loading techniques because it was mentioned in the Gunsite class review.

I will limit any further posts to questions about technique. This is something I am interested in trying out at the range since I have two Ruger Vaqueros sitting in the safe.

In summary:

1) List the PROS
2) List the CONS
3) What holster and accessories do you use? Which makers should be avoided? Which makers do you recommend and why?
4) How do you get around the CONS? (Example: shoot two, load two, etc)

 

[David E]

"I wonder if a basic skill level drill could be agreed upon to establish a "good enough" threshold for choosing a single action revolver for CCW."
Lets see if I understand this statement.. A person who carries a single action should be judged, obstensivly, by your criterion to be allowed to carry one? I really hope I'm misreading your intent by this statement. However it does appear that your opinion of single actions is, at least, poor, or for the purposes of this conversation they are unsuitable. Is this close to what you are alluding too?

First of all, I don't care what anybody carries for their defense gun. It can be a .22 single shot black powder derringer with powder, ball and cap carried in another pocket. I don't care!

But the title of the thread is Single Actions for CCW

Much has been said about the shortcomings of a single action revolver in that role today. Yet, some claim (then failed to substantiate) that the single action is "fastest to the first shot" and how fast it can be fired for subsequent shots, one handed or two.

If someone thinks a single action revolver is a great choice for CCW, all I'm suggesting is that they fully understand and accept the inherent limitations of the design. Further, they should consider attaining a level of skill that would minimize the shortcomings, since you cannot eliminate them.

The drill I suggested asked for thoughts on the matter. It was a suggestion asking for input, nothing more.

Thanks for asking me to clear that up.

 

[David E]

It's absolutely incredible that the human race survived before double stack 9mm pistols were invented. We should have all been wiped out in the late 1800s. I mean, all we had were SA revolvers. I think the fastest recorded times for a draw and shoot on target are still held by SA revolver shooters. I could be wrong.

First day on the thread?

In the 1800's, pretty much everyone had revolvers.

The fast draw record was made using a totally impractical holster, gun and technique. How would that apply to single actions for CCW?

 

[Risky buisness]

David E. In all, wether some posters opted to become uhh, detertmined, in their stance or counter points, it's pretty clear that the majority of folks who carry a single action are very well versed in both the atributes and the downside to the firearm they carry. I dont always carry my Ruger, nor do I suscribe to the thought that I need 17 rounds either. your personal experience must guide the choices one makes for a thoughtfull decision. All in all, a stimulating thread so far.

 

[MCgunner]

I love my single actions, usually carry a DA .38 snub in a pocket, but I do have an NAA Black Widow .22 magnum in a folding grip for deep concealment that gets carried a lot. It is quite accurate. I load it with Hornady Critical Defense.

Nice compact .45 you got there. I wouldn't wanna face it down.

 

[David E]

My claim that MY competence with the single action is greater than MY competence with anything else? Other than a video demonstration, how exactly would I go about backing up my claims and what difference would it make? I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do and would never presume to.

You claimed in Post #54: Nothing is faster from leather to the first shot than a Colt SAA or similar.

Nothing confining the statement to your alleged ability, just a blanket statement about the platform. No proof, no facts.

When challenged with one-handed rapid fire being slower with a single action, instead of offering insight, you merely mocked Tom with "just because YOU can't do it, don't assume others can't."

It's pointless to discuss the matter with someone that won't address the issues, but tap dances away with every response.

 

[Jim Watson]

I have known three men who considered themselves well defended with a single action revolver. All took the somewhat unusual precaution of actually practicing with them.
One I think I could outdraw with a DA or auto; the other two, I would not bet against. One actually carried his on duty. It took special permission from the Sheriff and a special order to get a holster for it in his agency's black basketweave, but he stuck with it.

Watching them shoot, I figured that their only disadvantage would be against multiple assailants where the slow reload would matter.

Unfortunately for the statistics, the only one of the bunch to get in a gunfight was wearing a 1911 at the time.