SA for CCW?

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i own and love my SAA revolver and if some woiuld make one with a flip out cylinder. I would proudly carry it exspecially when horse back riding.

Yes my dream revolver would be a full size Vaquero (the first genetion model) with a flip out cylinder in 45 Colt.
 
This thread is beginning to sound more like a discussion of our favorite baseball players instead of a discussion on the viability of a single-action revolver for CCW.

I'm sorry for what my original comment about Munden started. I just thought that making a blanket statement about SAA being useless for SD was absurd. As with any choosen weapon, it all comes down to the person shooting it, and their commitment to practice.

Wyman
 
This thread is beginning to sound more like a discussion of our favorite baseball players instead of a discussion on the viability of a single-action revolver for CCW

Yes, and even if you take Munden and Miculek out of it it has drifted from the original question.

A timed draw of a large handgun from a special belt rig, starting with the hand poised over the grip, would seem to have absolutely nothing to do with getting a concealable gun holstered under clothing into action safely and effectively.

And as I recall, Miculek usually starts with the gun in hand.

The original question had to do with whether a single action revolver was suitable for CCW.

One would have to address the following issues:

  • Is it readily concealable under most circumstances with most attire?
  • Is it light enough and small enough for the user to carry it all of the time?
  • Can the owner draw it rapidly and safely from concealment?
  • What are the risks of an unintentional discharge in a high-stress situation?

One might add something about capacity and how quickly it can be reloaded.

Personally, I don't think any of those factors have much to do with commitment to practice.

The classic SAA design has its place, but I personally see that place as in a CCW application.

There are reasons why you don't see them used by detectives, DEA agents, the FBI, etc. as their duty guns.
 
How we going to know till someone comes out ahead of some gangbanger with hi capacity 9 turned sideways.

SSSHHHH! They might start learning to hold them upright!
 
Don't tell the Open class fast-draw people that...
They shoot sideways from a twist draw. (was reading that link)
Dang stagecoachbangers. Always scaring my horses.

I'd love to carry my SA.
However, I've spent my entire life w/o a gun on my hip, so at this point it's nothing vs. something. I don't go to dangerous places.

OTOH, if I knew there was a specific likelihood of a gunfight, I'd grab my 1911.

-Daizee
 
An old geezer chimes in

You're all wrong...because I'm always right and this is my story and I'm sticking to it! http://www.thehighroad.org/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

I've had some very good single action revolvers, some excellent single action autos, some excellent double action autos and super fine double action revolvers...I think that takes in everything.

Of all my weapon combinations, I am the one constant in the formula for successful defense. I can use a range of weapons that might be available as a pickup in the field, but prefer a cell phone with a 911 speed dial at the first prickle of a goosebump. However, believing that when seconds count help is only minutes away, I carry a DA only, de-spurred, oh so lightweight, 6-shot Colt Cobra with ammo implicitly approved for use by police. (the FBI load).

My weapon is essentially a mechanism to amplify the meager force my aging body can apply to defend myself (me and mine). It changes the dynamics of the conflict by providing more time to escape, more distance from the threat, or diminished capacity of the threat through injury or death. It is not a blastomatic that eliminates risk. If the balloon goes up, I (and you) will likely be changed forever mentally, if not physically.

I seek to escape, not attack. If I am outnumbered, outgunned or outsmarted, that is the risk in life. If I am unarmed, that is submission to the lowest common denominator.

I don't carry a SA because they don't make one I can afford in eliminatetheweightium; I don't carry a 1911 because I can't be relied upon to manipulate the safety; I don't carry a DA auto because I have difficulty racking the slide over 16 pounds; I do carry my Cobra because I can handle the weight, perform the required actions and stack my trigger to perfection http://www.thehighroad.org/images/smilies/wink.gif

Gentlemen, just carry something. Carry something consistent with your personal limitations and abilities. What's in your head is more important than what's in your hand!

No offense intended to anyone....just one man's point of view.
 
No offense intended to anyone....just one man's point of view.

And a very good one...and well thought out, I might add.


I seek to escape, not attack. If I am outnumbered, outgunned or outsmarted, that is the risk in life. If I am unarmed, that is submission to the lowest common denominator.

That'd make a good sigline. Mind if I borrow it?

OTOH, if I knew there was a specific likelihood of a gunfight, I'd grab my 1911.

Not me, sir. If there was no way that I could avoid it, and I had a choice, I'd go for a rifle and work to insure that distance stacked the odds in my favor.
 
Not me, sir. If there was no way that I could avoid it, and I had a choice, I'd go for a rifle and work to insure that distance stacked the odds in my favor.

Heh. Avoid first for me too. For sure.
However, since my "biggest" rifle is a .22WMR tube-fed lever-action, I'm prolly better off with the .45. :)

actually I DO have "speedloaders" for it, but...

-Daizee
 
Since Jim March claims to have worn Kydex armor some of the time, "what Jim March does" may not be the best standard for comparison...
 
Mercy, I had to go back and read post #1 to even remember where this started. First of all, my chief expects me to carry a DA revolver, or an SA or DA autoloader, so I don't normally use an SA sixgun for CC. With my present environment, and my duty to respond, rather than evade/disengage, my usual daily CC ensemble is a pair of P229 pistols. OTOH, I am in the twilight of my LE career, and recently purchased a Milt Sparks Summer Special II for an SAA. Someday soon, in the next two to ten years, I will once again be a private citizen, able to carry what I want. I know my abilities with an SAA, and also know that the first shot or two will almost always determine the outcome of a fight. I also plan to carry a well-tuned SP101 snubby for the rest of my life, unless a truly gifted gunmaker can develop and market something that fits my right hand better.

My left hand, OTOH, is most excellently served by the grip of the SAA. I am an unusual creature, left-handed, but right-armed, and naturally shoot DA best as a rightie, and SA best as a lefty. (I have indeed trained to be functionally ambidextrous with both DA and SA.) The SP101 snubby is limited by its short sight radius; the SAA, OTOH, has a wonderfully long sight radius, and in the 5.5" barrel length, is still nicely portable and concealable. For several years, when out of uniform, I carried a pair of SP101 snubbies on a regular basis, or sometimes one snubby paired with a 4" .357 sixgun. Substituting the SAA for that 4" .357 seems eminently feasible, once I no longer have a duty to intervene in the affairs of others. Out in the sticks, I just might feel OK with just the SAA as my only handgun.

A story: One afternoon, I was cleaning my (then-one-and-only) SIG P229 and SP101, when I remembered I was about to have to meet a colleague for dinner. Rather than hastily wipe and reassemble the SIG and snubby, I carried a USFA China Camp sixgun with me. Later, when I was conversing with my colleague in the parking lot of the steakhouse, two thug-looking young men drove up, circled us, and gave us that look. I did not worry about being armed with a mere SA sixgun, but remember thinking that my chief was going to skin my head for killing two, uh, disadvantaged young men with an unauthorized handgun. We gave them that look of our own, and they disengaged. The operative word in there was "killing." I was prepared to win that fight with the weapon I had with me, and it did not bother me that I was armed with 1873 technology. Had any weapons appeared in the hands of those young men, five doses of 225 to 250 grains of lead was going to be headed their way, and lead is lead.

I am not trying to convert anyone to the use of an SA sixgun for CCW. I don't care if anyone thinks I am a stone-age cowboy for doing so myself on occasion. I am certainly not saying an SAA beats DA sixgun or a P229, assuming equal skill with both weapons.

I think I am better-armed with an SAA than with a J-frame .38 snubby. The J-snub can indeed be reloaded quicker, but that is balanced by the greater range and power of the SAA, and being a lefty, I can reload the SAA quite handily while maintaining a firing grip. I can flip the loading gate open and closed with my left thumb, and rotate the cylinder with my left index finger, while my middle, ring, and pinky fingers maintain a firing grip.

I hope I didn't bore y'all to death. This is just my pointless, rambling $0.02 on the matter.
 
Good lord above, why will this topic never die? It seems like every other week, someone posts one of these "How stupid would it be to use *insert name of preposterously poor choice here* as a CCW?" threads. Single action revolvers, cap and ball guns, X-frame smiths, old oddball milsurps, all kinds of goofy stuff.

It's almost like it makes people feel tougher to use, or at least talk about using, unsuitable weapons. For some reason, they lose sight of the fact that what we're talking about is life and death. Something to be taken seriously.

Yes, SAAs can be fired quickly in competent hands. My own, for example. I'm the 2008 Single Action Shooting Society Ohio State Champion. I can draw, cock, achieve sight picture, fire, and hit my target in .82 seconds. I can achieve splits (shot to shot times, for those unfamiliar with timer jargon) of .20 sec or less. I can transition from one target to another in .22 sec. Do I carry an SAA? I bloody well do not!

I'll tell you why. All that speed means is that it can be emptied very quickly. Less than two seconds, in fact. An empty gun is little more than a poorly designed club, until it is reloaded. That is where the SAA falls down. You've got five shots for a Colt-style, or six, with a transfer bar. So far you're running even with a J- or K-frame. But now, you've got to reload the thing, and that's about a 26 step process, if you use a dump pouch. With cartridge loops, it's even slower. Not only do you lose time, (and seconds are jewels beyond price in a fight) but you add complexity all out of proportion to a modern weapon. Complexity is where Mr. Murphy generally steps in. Consider that reloading process, compared to the drop mag, grab mag, stuff mag, of an autoloader; or the latch, eject, grab speedloader, insert speedloader, close, of a DA revolver. How many steps do you want between a club and a gun? 3? 5? Or 26?

That doesn't even address the fact that an SAA is a heck of a lot of iron to tote around for a very small payload.

We've all heard "average gunfight," statistics thrown around that say that the average fight lasts for 4-5 seconds, and involves 2-3 shots. Surely, the argument goes, an SAA would be adequate for that, right? Wrong. Anyone who sees such statistics as vindication for carrying unsuitable weaponry needs to take bonehead math again, or at least look up the definition of the word "average." It means that fully half of all gunfights take more!

For a lot less weight and bulk, you could carry a J-frame. For less weight, a Glock. For equal weight, a 1911, or CZ-75.

Anyhow, it's an improvement over a sharp stick, and it may even be "good enough," for the aforementioned average gunfight. See sig line about "good enough."

~~~Mat
 
David E, I'm sorry but that's still not a fair comparison.

The Ruger Bisley, while an accurate target or hunting revolver, is notably slower to cock one-handed than a standard plowhandle grip is.

If you shoot a Ruger Bisley, it's no wonder you don't think one-handed shooting can be done quickly. Even a regular Blackhawk, while I prefer it for accuracy shooting, does not have a true one-handed grip like a Colt SAA or clone, or a New Vaquero/Anniversary Blackhawk.

WRT powder-puff loads, I don't think my 158 grains over 17 grains of IMR 4227 is a light .357 load...

I'm still not arguing that a SAA is a better CCW revolver than a 642. I never was. I just think that people who haven't practiced, with the right gun not a Ruger Bisley, really know how fast some people can shoot a SAA or similar revolver one handed.

With that, maybe I'll go out and blast off a few rounds and practice it, myself...

Umm, no. In SASS, Bislies are among the most popular for Duelist (one handed) style shooting. They've got a significantly lower hammer spur, which makes them quicker to reach for followup shots, for most people.

~~~Mat
 
Mat said:
Anyone who sees such statistics as vindication for carrying unsuitable weaponry needs to take bonehead math again, or at least look up the definition of the word "average." It means that fully half of all gunfights take more!

Might want to take that 'bonehead math' again yourself. Average is the middle ground. So take 100 of these SD gunfights. First 25 are below average(fewer than 3 shots), next 50 are average, final 25 are above average(more than 5 shots). For there to be an average, there also has to be that critical 'below average'. If somehow 50% are above avg...something is not right.
So it would be 25% of all gunfights take more. Give or take.
 
"How we going to know till someone comes out ahead of some gangbanger with hi capacity 9 turned sideways".

Well, all you have to do is to go to the General Discussions forums and look up "Actual shootout against armed killers" post by Proud Boer.

He faced 3 men armed with TT pistols. He only had a SA NAA .22Mag revolver. For outcome, see his post.
 
I have been on vacation this week and thought this thread was interesting and challenging. I have tried carrying my 5 1/2" old model Ruger Vaquero 44Mag in a Mernickle PS6-SA concealed a few days. It worked like a charm. Would I do this on a regular basis? Probably not, but it was an interesting experiment. The only thing I found that would be considered a detriment is the speed of reloads. This set up with a nylon bomber style jacket worked just fine for me. BTW I carried 44 Spec. in the Vaquero not magnums.
 
I love these threads. A person who would not think of doing something explaining to others how wrong they are. Oh boy

I can understand disagreeing with those who carry a single action revolver, but that arguement can be made if you carry anything less than say a Glock 17.

We know all handgun calibers are about equally effective with good quality bullets, so everyone should carry a Glock 17 as it is not too heavy (by my standard) and carries plenty of ammo. It is a semi auto so reloads are quick. The recoil is not over powering. You can get hosters to conceal it in any attire. There that makes sense. It doesn't matter whether you like or shoot it well as it is quite possibly the best carry platform on the market. If yoiu practice enough with it you will be good at using it.

Could you imagine somebody making that arguement? I mean heck the 1911 weighs too much and doesn't carry enough ammo, right? A snubby, or for that mater any revolver, doesn't have the firepower, right? A compact auto doesn't hold enough ammunition, right? A DA/SA auto has inconsistant trigger pull between first shot and follow up, so must therefore be inaccurate, rigth? So, A Glock 17 must be perfect.

I don't think there is one person who carries a single action revolver who ever tell anybody it is the best gun to carry, but having a gun is better than not having one. Having one that works for you is better than carrying something you don't have confidence in. A single action revolver works for me.
 
They've got a significantly lower hammer spur, which makes them quicker to reach for followup shots, for most people.

That's the Super Blackhawk hammer, and it can be stuck in whatever Ruger you want. Ruger themselves puts it on the Montado.

The Bisley grip has less muzzle rise, which I believe is the reason it's chosen by some (usually with rounds that string vertically with a plowhandle grip, like full-house .44 Magnum and Ruger-only .45 Colt).
 
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well if i had no other choice i might, i mean it isn't the worst thing you can carry, atleast you can count on it shooting.

people carry the naa minis around all day, atleast you're talking a bigger caliber
 
SA vs DA shooting one handed

I had the time to go to the range today and compare the same loads in a Single Action vs. a Double Action revolver.

I used a CED shot timer. This displays the time elapsed from the start signal to the last shot.

Start position was gun pointed about 45* downward, thumb on hammer for SA, finger inside triggerguard for DA.

First up was my new Ruger 50th Anniversary Blackhawk .357

Load used was a 170 FMJ backed by 14.3 grains of 296, velocity about 1400 fps. These are stout loads! target was a full IPSC target at about 5-6 yds.

ONE HAND with the Ruger was:

First shot was .78, followed with shots clocking in at .84, .77, .76 and .73 Total time: 3.88

A 4" 686 was used for the DA exemplar. One handed, it shaped up like this:
first shot at .80 followed by .45, .44, .38, .38 Total time: 2.45

TWO handed went like this:

Ruger: .76, .55, .47, .47, .45 Total time: 2.69

686: .68, .34, .27, .28, .24 Total time: 1.81

For fun, I did 5 shots of light .38 loads out of the Ruger.

ONE hand: 3.17

TWO hands: 1.73

Moving to the .45 Colt, I had my aforementioned Bisley paired with a S&W Model 25-5 with five inch barrel.

Load was a 300 grain SWC backed by 8 grains of 231. This is a fairly stout "medium/heavy" load. It's going about 950-1000 fps

Bisley: .83, .95, .84, .87, .82 Total time: 4.31

S&W: .69, .45, .44, .43, .44 Total time: 2.45 (these loads hurt out of this gun)

Two handed with Ruger: .66, .53, .48, .46, .62 Total time: 2.75

Clearly, one handed shooting with serious loads is easier, faster and more consistent with a DA revolver. I missed the hammer a time or two single action. This would be minimized with diligent practice, but cold hands and/or a sudden adrenaline rush would impact the ability to reliably thumb back that hammer.

Split times (time between shots) was 1/2 as long with the DA gun.

The DA gun hurt the hand more, sometimes apprecicably so. The .357 170 grain FMJ's are stout loads, but in the Ruger, they didn't hurt one bit to shoot them.

One benefit of the single action also turned out to be a disadvantage: the high bore axis which tames the impact of the kick also allows the gun to slip in the hand. The Bisley, surprisingly, slipped down enough to make that 5th shot a bit iffy, as the hammer would hit my gun hand before it had fully cocked. The Blackhawk didn't display this tendency, so it's load and caliber dependent.

If you disagree with these results, then I encourage YOU to go out and do the same thing. Let's put some real numbers on it, not some vague, speculative "it feels just as fast double action as it does single action....blahblahblah" Use a shot timer, not a watch second hand or stopwatch.

And have some fun while doing it. I sure did!

.
 
Dave, thanks for posting your numbers!
Great experiment.

Recoil certainly will affect follow-ups with a smooth-gripped SA. Do you shoot with all fingers ON the grip, or with your pinkie curled underneath? That will affect how much repositioning you have to do.

Those full .357 loads sound pretty burly. I'd probably carry 158-180gr@1000fps, which would be much more shootable. I find that hot .38spl loads in my S&W model-10 can kick pretty hard for what they are, but I don't mind a full .357 in my .357 Anniv. Blackhawk. OTOH, I can deliver those .38's from the Model-10 pretty fast now.

How would you rate your groups across the various guns?

-Daizee
 
Thanks for those times!

I, for one, never thought a SA, one-handed, would be as fast as a DA, one-handed.

I do think that 3.88 seconds for 5 shots, vs. 2.45 with the 686, shows that the SA is far from useless. Of course, one had best know how to use it.:)
 
For fun, I shot my Ruger Super Black Hawk in IPSC.

Not saying IPSC is realistic for self defense, but a SA is better than a stick.

Not better than a DA.
 
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