SA Revolvers for CCW

[Combat Engineer]

Recall an incident in Aspen, CO, where a rancher, Ms. K. Denson, shot an intruder, C. Boyd. The rancher used a 44 cal black powder, cap and ball, M1858 Remington Army revolver. One shot fired.

Also recall a convenience store shootout where a good guy used a SA revolver (which broke, but continued to function), to stop a robber.

And of course many a fierce animal has been felled with a SA revolver.

On rare occasions, I carry a short barreled SA 45 cal birdshead Vaquero, and yes reloading is not an option, tho New York reloads are at hand.

Bottom line: Old West SA revolvers are heavy, accurate, and capable.

 

[David E]

What holster do you use for the Vaquero?

 

[Combat Engineer]

Have 2. One is a left handed San Pedro Saddlery shoulder holster, for comfort, and a right handed custom Hunter, for speed.

 

[BSA1]

I am going to opt for that light SA trigger (on a cocked DA) whenever time allows.

There are those that did that or were accused (without evidence) of doing that and massive legal/incarceration troubles ensued.

You mean like the 1911 which is commonly being carried now days for S.D.?

 

[David E]

You mean like the 1911 which is commonly being carried now days for S.D.?

I was thinking primarily of the Alvarez shooting in Miami.

Prosecutors CLAIMED he cocked his DA revolver (he did not) then shot the suspect ACCIDENTALLY. (He shot him on purpose.) The shooting itself was justifiable, but the prosecutor apparently had a point to prove.

The incident caused the dept to remove the single action capability from all of their revolvers.

What 1911 story do you have?

 

[RealGun]

There are those that did that or were accused (without evidence) of doing that and massive legal/incarceration troubles ensued.

Argumentative. I will use whatever capability my gun has when I need it.

 

[BSA1]

This is where you lose me. Are you saying it be better to NOT have the ability to reload at all? I'd rather be shot reloading than standing there with an empty gun because I was too stupid or lazy to bring another 1-6 rounds with me.

You do a practical risk assessment of the types and frequency of crimes in your community, in your neighbor and at the work place.

For example when I worked alone all night at a local stop-n-rob I carried a Detonics 45 concealed even though it was against company policy. The Detonics had that big 45 caliber hole and was flat which was very important to me to avoid having the store manager from seeing it. My strategy was to only use deadly force if the robber tried to force me to kneel down or into the back room as that was a sign he intended to execute me.

(FYI This was 40 years ago and long before I knew anything about Single Action revolvers).

We have different strategies. Mine is to retreat to a place where I feel safe even after using deadly force. So I shoot my gun dry I’m retreating. If I still have rounds left I am retreating until I find a safe place to call the Police. Leaving the crime scene isn’t as big of deal as it once was due to all of the camera surveillance and cell phones.

If yours is too stand and deliver or the area you are in is a high combat zone it is easy to carry 61 rounds of 9mm (with 3 magazines and one round in the chamber).

Me…will that be 5 rounds of 41 Special Sir?

 

[David E]

If yours is too stand and deliver

It depends. I may not be able to move much, if at all, due to many circumstances. If I have the ability to move without jeopardizing my safety by so doing, then you can bet I'm moving!

or the area you are in is a high combat zone

It's not.

it is easy to carry 61 rounds of 9mm (with 3 magazines and one round in the chamber).

I typically carry one reload, no matter the gun or capacity. But I always carry a reload.

 

[hannstv]

My EDC is a Glock 27 if I have a cover shirt or a S&W 442 for pocket carry if in tee shirt. I would certainly prefer a SA revolver in a serious caliber to the S&W 442 if things got serious. Those that make the commitment to carrying a large SA are hardly unarmed. The size and weight are a large issue to me.

 

[MCgunner]

Although I said I was done with this thread sitting here and sipping my cup of hot cocoa I realized that there is a simple way to avoid having the Single Action roll in your hand.

Shoot a Bisley Model..

Or, put a non-traditional grip on it. Hogues are comfy and keep the revolver from rolling as is this gun show find in wood. I prefer the roll in the hand, myself, just flip the gun back with my little finger under the grip as I cock it. I have a set of traditional Sanbar Stag grips on my .45 Colt Blackhask. I carry it for hogs, though, not people. The pictured gun is in .357 and don't kick much, anyway.

 

[David E]

Pretty grips, but it looks like they'd be harder to hide than the gun.

I used Pachmayrs on my .45 Colt Blackhawk. Very untraditional looking, but they worked.

The counter argument is that the gun rolling in the hand allows the hammer to be under the thumb of the gun hand, so one cocks the hammer while "throwing" the gun back on target. But if you're using two hands, you really don't want the gun to roll at all, as that takes the hammer away from the weak hand thumb, which does the cocking in this case. If it rolls too much in rapid fire, say, by the 3rd or 4th shot, the gun hand is so far up the grip it blocks the hammer from being fully cocked.

 

[StrawHat]

For several years, I would use an Uberti Colt clone to run my deparments qualifying course. The only stage that gave me any trouble was 12 shots in 25 seconds at 7 yards. But I always qualified. I did not carry a SAA as a LEO but I did qualify with it. And yes, 255 grain bullets over a full casing of black powder. Messy, smokey and a hell of a lot of fun. Not sure if I could do it again but it would be fun to try!

I was speaking of this with my brother. His recollection was a bit different than mine so for full disclosure…

During the summer, when we shot at the outdoor range I used the black powder load and the 45 long Colt cartridge. The revolver was a 5 ½”barreled clone made in Italy. The holster was a belt slide made for a S&W revolver and worn under a light jacket. At first I tried reloading from belt slides but found it easier to do so from my pockets. The empties fell from the cylinder under their own weight so I did not need to use the ejector rod. It took a few tries but I was finally able to qualify using the SA revolver.

When we moved to the indoor range the fans were not sufficient to handle black powder loads so I switched cylinder and used the 45 ACP cartridge. For speed loaders, I borrowed several magazines for a 1911. Same holster. With the magazines my times were a bit better.

The purpose of the experiment was not to carry a SA revolver on duty but to prove how slow our qualification times were. I was an assistant Range Officer and was always trying to improve the training available to our Officers.
When it came time for duty, I still strapped on the S&W M19 or S&W M15 that was issued by the department to all the Officers.

 

[StrawHat]

I was hoping for something more practical, geared towards CCW purposes.

Perhaps 3 IPSC targets 5 yds down range, one yard apart, edge to edge. Gun in concealable holster. At signal, draw and fire 5 shots total. Two targets will be hit twice, the remaining target once. Let's set the time frame at 5 seconds for one hand, 4 seconds for two hands.

B and C zone hits add 1/4 second, D zone hits add 1/2 second.

Thoughts?

The drill was conducted with three targets, 1 yard apart. I was using a slide holster (for a S&W revolver) under a light jacket. We only counted center of mass hits and were required to do 12 shots in 25 seconds. I am not familar with IPSC or the targets used, we made our own as the Range Budget was very limited. Our target was similar in outline to a tombstone with a center scoring area.

The way you have set the stage would be an interesting course of fire. I doubt I would be up to the challenge.

 

[David E]

Strawhat, I've been thinking about this some more and think I should simplify it. Not many ranges allow the setup proposed and, as you mention, you're not familiar with the suggested targets.

How about this: sheet of copy paper (8.5"x11") at 5 yds, gun in concealable holster, hands at sides. At signal, draw and fire 5 in 6 seconds 2 handed, 7 seconds one handed.

The time frames just got easier, but it's supposed to be a threshold for "passing," not an A+ performance.

What do you think? Too easy? Too hard?

 

[mavracer]

I have a shot timer and can average between .7 and .8 from concealment (light over shirt and paddle or IWB clip on) and it doesn't make a big difference which platform I use. SA rev, DA rev, SA auto or DA auto my mean average with all platforms falls within the median average of each individule platform.
As to the mousefart loads you can get quite a bit above that without losing control of the gun, shooting a 38 special +p 158gr SWC is cake one handed as is my pet 200gr golddot @900 fps 44 special in my sheriff's vaquero.
With my current threat level I feel dang well prepared with a 5 shot snub and no reload, so my SA's are if anything a step up from that. I do usually carry at least one reload and there's usually another gun close.
I also recognize the shortcomings and if/when my world becomes a more dangerous place I'll adjust acordingly.
Although a SA may still be a part of that, might be I wont be able to pack a longgun my 475 linebaugh BFR gives me 12ga slug performance in a belt holster.

 

[mavracer]

What do you think? Too easy? Too hard?

Would seem pretty easy to me, but as you said passing not A+.
I'd say that's probably going to be good enough most of the time.

 

[David E]

So you're saying your draw to first shot is I pretty much the same regardless of platform....

How do your splits compare?

Why round anyone not carry 5-6 more rounds?

 

[mavracer]

So you're saying your draw to first shot is I pretty much the same regardless of platform....

Yep not much difference, guess my draw stroke is just slow enough that I have plenty of time to cock the hammer or take the safety off between the holster and on target.

How do your splits compare?

Of course it depends on distance, but two handed my splits are pretty close to what I can do with a DA revolver or a 1911 shooting 200pf 45s. I don't shoot mousefart loads.
I haven't checked my splits shooting 1 handed, I probably should but I know they're gonna be slower.

Why round anyone not carry 5-6 more rounds?

They wouldn't make it as a boyscout.
I live a rural enough life style that I've used my carry gun for ... if I didn't carry extra I wouldn't have a fully loaded gun on the way home.

 

[StrawHat]

Strawhat, I've been thinking about this some more and think I should simplify it. Not many ranges allow the setup proposed and, as you mention, you're not familiar with the suggested targets.

How about this: sheet of copy paper (8.5"x11") at 5 yds, gun in concealable holster, hands at sides. At signal, draw and fire 5 in 6 seconds 2 handed, 7 seconds one handed.

The time frames just got easier, but it's supposed to be a threshold for "passing," not an A+ performance.

What do you think? Too easy? Too hard?

With times like that, I would have no problems, from concealment. At that distance, blackpowder loads will shred the target.

 

[RealGun]

Pretty grips, but it looks like they'd be harder to hide than the gun.

McGunner indicated that it was a hunting gun.

 

[Robert101]

Interesting thread and actually a fun read (yes all 7 pages). I choose to carry a semi-auto for defense because I am more proficient with that type of weapon. Others and their skills do vary of course. Maybe I'm a victim of the modern day propaganda advocating semi-autos and the combat style training with them. Now with all that being said, my second choice for carry would be a double action revolver, and thirdly a single action. You (whoever reads this) of course have many skills which I do not and will never possess - so carry what you may. One last thought....... If I were having breakfast at say Denny's and an older gentleman came in carrying a 45 Colt single action set in a nice leather holster, heck, I'd feel just a little bit safer that day.

 

[dickydalton]

"One last thought....... If I were having breakfast at say Denny's and an older gentleman came in carrying a 45 Colt single action set in a nice leather holster, heck, I'd feel just a little bit safer that day. "

I think that most would agree.

 

[RealGun]

"One last thought....... If I were having breakfast at say Denny's and an older gentleman came in carrying a 45 Colt single action set in a nice leather holster, heck, I'd feel just a little bit safer that day. "

I think that most would agree.

I thought about that and had this vision of the guy, with a bum shoulder and slow to get up, sweeping the whole place fumbling with his hog leg to get it from under the table. I say that with all due respect to "older gentlemen". It was just a thought.

 

[Joe Demko]

Just because he's an old man, doesn't mean he's a nice old man.

 

[dickydalton]

SSSSSuferin Sucotash!