SA Revolvers for CCW
- Thread starter Unkei
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BSA1
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I already addressed one and two handed techniques when using full power loads in Post #17.
Huh?? Well ok. No more than pulling the trigger faster means hitting the target more often.
Equivalent to what? Commercial standards for that particular caliber or as the same as other calibers?
Regardless it isn’t possible as no two shooters have the same set of skills.
Not from me. What I will say is the more you practice with one gun the faster you will be regardless of the type.
Well in the past I have put on Cowboys vs. Cops shooting matches for Toys for Tots. The Cops that came are motivated gun guys and darn good shots. We divided the stages up equally between CAS style shooting and those that the Cops use in their training. Most of the Cops used semi-autos (and mostly Glocks).
Results are the same everytime. The Cowboys win and the Cops come away with a new found respect for the Old Thumbbuster.
I'm done with this topic. The pros and cons have been covered and now it's getting to the point of beating a dead horse just to be argumentative.
BSA1 over and out!
David E
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Which doesn't address the first shot speed from a practical holster in the least. I've seen one such match up and the CAS team won. They win because the cowboy guns require more knowledge and skill to run effectively than modern guns. The other team won "their" stages, but did so poorly on the CAS stages it was ugly.
Shot to shot time ONE HANDED won't favor the SA.
I don't dismiss the SA revolver as a viable handgun, but ya gots ta know its limitations.
For several years, I would use an Uberti Colt clone to run my deparments qualifying course. The only stage that gave me any trouble was 12 shots in 25 seconds at 7 yards. But I always qualified. I did not carry a SAA as a LEO but I did qualify with it. And yes, 255 grain bullets over a full casing of black powder. Messy, smokey and a hell of a lot of fun. Not sure if I could do it again but it would be fun to try!
I have heard of it, but again you are asking for results from a generic group of people. It is a broad list, your question is too broad for a specific answer. What do you want, the time of the fastest SA shooter vs the time of the fastest DA shooter? How does that translate to average users?
Someone that practices with their respected platform will be plenty fast for self defense. You brought up the recoil factor, which I think is irrelevant since a SA handles recoil better that most common conceal carry guns. Recoil in a single action is not an issue
David E
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Then your compatriots need to stop spouting the SA revolver is fastest to the first shot.
It absolutely IS an issue when it comes to rapid fire. Especially one handed.
Ok you want it to be an issue, so be it. Single actions handle recoil better. Advantage SA
silicosys4
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SA's don't handle heavy recoil better. They roll more in your hand because of the grip shape, this feels more comfortable.
But it means your muzzle is coming off target more, and you are working harder between shots to reacquire your sight picture. You also have to let the gun slide back down in your hand after it rolls up, which means your grip is constantly shifting from recoil and thumb cocking.
Look at a SA vs k or l frame....Compare how high the bore axis is on each in relation to the grip. Combat handguns should have a low bore axis with less muzzle flip, not a higher one with more.
Disadvantage SA.
I can't recall hearing one serious lawman in their prime from the turn of the century who didn't make the switch from SA to DA or auto in their fighting handgun, even if they were already proficient with SA's. If they were the kind of lawman who had a better than average chance of running into trouble, they didn't rely on their skills with a SA, they learned to use the newer better tool to give themselves that much more of an edge.
All this talk about sufficient training puts to mind a racing analogy. A SA is like a 20 year old racing car. It's still a race car and fast as heck with a good driver, and a good driver in a 20 year old car can hold his own against a bunch of amateurs in newer cars.
But....the first time that 20 year old car comes up against a newer car with a competent driver, it's over.
Which raises the point... if you had spent your time working on adapting and improving your driving in a newer car you would have at least have been competitive.
So why put your money on the 20 year old car instead of training with the newer, more competitive car in the garage?
I have to ask...if you have a better tool for the job, don't you think your life is worth picking the better tool then learning to use it? Is it an old dog-new trick thing? Are you gambling that your odds of having to use it are so low that it's more of a piece of jewelry or an accessory than a tool you might have to use to save your bacon?
IMO, SA's are for a BBQ, the range, or the woods. No way would I pass over the auto or DA revolver for the SA if I were going to be somewhere I felt a CCW was necessary.
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RealGun
Member
If there must be a debate about who draws faster, be sure to rule out CAS holsters. Concealment requires compromising on holsters, and self defense is not a stare down in the middle of the street.
jimbo555
Member
Frank Hamer, legendary Texas Ranger from 1906 to 1933 preferred a Colt saa 43/4 inch barrel throughout his career. He never trusted semi autos. He was in many gunfights.
Joe Demko
Member
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/hamer_guns.htm
Hamer had, and used, a SAA alongside a variety of other guns.
Hamer had, and used, a SAA alongside a variety of other guns.
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jimbo555
Member
The point is, Frank Hamer was in over 50 gunfights had the choice of any handgun including the latest semi-autos but preferred a Colt 45 saa.
jimbo555
Member
If we could ask Frank Hamer why he preferred the Saa he would probably say what Craig has been saying. The saa is what I trained most with, It worked for me many times and I trust it.
jimbo555
Member
He still carried the saa along with the 38 super and a Remington 35 caliber rifle. The 38 super was chose for penetration against the thick steel cars of the time. Again he carried many different guns in his career but always preferred the colt saa.
Joe Demko
Member
Say...you don't suppose Hamer might have chosen based on what he needed done rather than just on what he liked? No, forget I mentioned it. That's just crazy talk.
tomrkba
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Now this is an interesting post. What technique(s) did you use to reload the revolver? Did you have time to load a few more rounds if you flubbed a shot or two?
Did you read the Gunsite Defensive SAA Revolver course review link I posted earlier? What is your opinion on the techniques described there?
OP
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Unkei
Member
SA. Revolver For CCW
WOW!
When I started this thread, I never realized what a magnificent flame war I would be starting!!! I am so sorry! Or am I? A lot of good points have been raised. No, a SA revolver is not the ultimate choice for defensive use. A semi-auto in an acceptable caliber is probably better. Yup, a reload or two makes sense. With over 34 years as an LEO, I might just have some insights into the whole CCW question, or even open carry. As a cop, I did both. As a retired cop, I still carry daily and remain proficient. In the end, if you are going to carry, become proficient with your platform of choice and remain so. And for sure, be aware of the awsome responsibility of CCW, and the absolute certainty of the legal and emotional aftermath of shooting someone.
What bothers me though, is how uncivil this thread has become. After all, this is THR for God's sake! I know I'm not a high numbers poster on this forum, but I really think we can do better at treating each other with a bare modicum of respect and civility. Good grief...let's not get into high noon shoot out mode just because each of us has a different opinion! There..I've probably done it again..no doubt flames will begin, and more than likely directed at me. LOL!
Cheers,
Unkei
WOW!
When I started this thread, I never realized what a magnificent flame war I would be starting!!! I am so sorry! Or am I? A lot of good points have been raised. No, a SA revolver is not the ultimate choice for defensive use. A semi-auto in an acceptable caliber is probably better. Yup, a reload or two makes sense. With over 34 years as an LEO, I might just have some insights into the whole CCW question, or even open carry. As a cop, I did both. As a retired cop, I still carry daily and remain proficient. In the end, if you are going to carry, become proficient with your platform of choice and remain so. And for sure, be aware of the awsome responsibility of CCW, and the absolute certainty of the legal and emotional aftermath of shooting someone.
What bothers me though, is how uncivil this thread has become. After all, this is THR for God's sake! I know I'm not a high numbers poster on this forum, but I really think we can do better at treating each other with a bare modicum of respect and civility. Good grief...let's not get into high noon shoot out mode just because each of us has a different opinion! There..I've probably done it again..no doubt flames will begin, and more than likely directed at me. LOL!
Cheers,
Unkei
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tomrkba
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Yes, you are in that respect. Think of how your family would feel if you died because you were too lazy to drop a speed strip in your pocket. It is easy to do, yet you feel justified by suspect statistics for your poor decision. There is no reason not to do it and it costs you nothing other than some pocket space. If many experienced trainers are telling us to carry a reload, then maybe there is a reason that has nothing to do with stats and studies.
I learned quite a bit about you when you stated you would not take the time to learn to operate another platform and do not carry a reload. The first means you will not spend two days at a defensive handgun course. The second is inexcusable and shows you are not serious about personal defense.
It sounds like you have good handgun shooting skills, so the course would teach you the differences and improve your mindset. Hopefully, a good defensive handgun trainer will get you thinking about the mindset necessary to fight these monsters on the street. You make far too many assumptions about these sorts of fights if your posts are any indication. The FBI rule of thumb may describe a good percentage of fights (if it is even correct and threads on this forum dispute its accuracy), but it may not describe the fight that comes to you.
But, it is your call. Do as you will. Hopefully you will prevail despite your attitude. As one of the guys stated earlier: you are far better armed than the vast majority of Americans today.
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David E
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Like I told you before, whenever you're ready to buy me a timer, I'll get one.
By your definition a 1911 is equally unsafe. Couple points. If you draw your weapon, the decision is already made to shoot. You are also not required to place your finger on the trigger just because the hammer is cocked.
Exactly! Obviously, a sixgun firing heavier loads is going to have more recoil. That doesn't change what has to be done to fire those shots. Nor is the DA or autoloader exempt from this phenomenon called recoil. That is a weak argument. Again, the arguer is assuming equal time with other platforms.
The magic is in the grip configuration, not the low slung fast draw type holsters used in that sport.
Why, because you can't do it fast?
I think we're all well aware of its limitations.
Prove it wrong.
All of which is done while the hammer is being cocked. Autos and DA's don't recoil???
If you think a single action is supposed to be sliding around in your hand while you're shooting it, you're doing it wrong and should be doing more reading in this thread than responding. More rhetoric from those who don't know.
You don't know your history then. Google Tom Threepersons.
If I HAD to spend the time I spend with SA's with Glocks or DA's, I wouldn't shoot at all. If that stuff appeals to you, you won't have to fight me at the counter for them. Fact is, all this training for combat is spending a lot of time preparing for something that will probably never happen. Life's too short and time is too precious for me to spend it any other way. I suggest you do the same.
You make a great many stupid assumptions and apparently don't read very well.
"Experienced trainers" are humans with opinions. IMHO, there is far too much opinion spouted without supporting fact. Take the oft-repeated Ayoob stance on handloads for self defense. It's been repeated and pass around so many times, people believe absolutely that if you use handloads in a legal shooting that you will be burned at the stake. However, if we engage our brains and actually study this, there is ZERO supporting evidence supporting the claim. It is 100% theory that it 'might' be used against you. So I really don't give a damn who says I should carry a reload. I'm not going to take anything as gospel without asking "why?".
Then I will kindly tell you to pound sand. Rather than making a bunch of stupid, offensive assumptions you just as easily could've asked a question. You did not.
Everything is a compromise. If we prepared ourselves for the worst possible outcome, we'd all be wearing body armor and carrying AR's. That is not practical on a daily basis. No, we must decide for ourselves how "prepared" we want to be and we must balance that need with every day concerns of concealability and comfort. Some folks don't feel comfortable leaving the house without two guns and 100rds. I'm not one of them. If you were to ask me why I don't usually carry a reload I would tell you I do not think it's necessary. Statistically, an individual is HIGHLY unlikely to ever need their carry weapon and the odds that they will need a reload are exponentially lower. If you want to prepare the absolutely least likely situation, that is your choice. But you will NOT lay offensive comments at my feet because I do not agree with you. You're not as smart as you think you are and with that, I'm done with this argument.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Careful with the assumptions, I know you think you know everything but you do not. If you had read this thread, you would've read that I am competent with the 1911 and shot Glocks for 15yrs. I've also been carrying 1911's for 10yrs in an El Paso #88 Street Combat.
I've been wearing sport coats quite often and so just had a rig made in black elephant hide because I'm going to start carrying a 5".
Plus one for a J-frame.
If you had been paying attention, rather than reading just enough to feed your argument, you might have a clearer picture. I never said I didn't know how to handle other platforms or that I didn't carry them. Only that I spend much more time with SA's and am comfortable depending on them for concealed carry. You make far too many assumptions and insult people in the process of your "argument".
Careful making such high horse judgements, I might forget my manners.
dickydalton
Member
I am amazed at how many "experts" on here like to ridicule Cowboy Action shooters, and dismiss their proficiency with handguns. For some odd reason I was thinking that maybe, just maybe, they might also shoot some "real" ammo like the "experts" on here do. A few posters need a course in civility to practice with.:banghead:
Risky buisness
Member
+ on the civility issue sir. Most folks cant tune into the ' maby that guy has a different opinion than me' thing. What was that rule??? " carry a gun.... its personal choice after that, I carry SA, never worried either. Oh gee, whats that on my belt now??? Ruger .357 3 screw, 4 5/8th bbl.
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