Saw the "New" JFK Shooting theory on TV

[Mike Irwin]

Teppo,

"No one seems to have accounted for the fact that a living human head is slightly pressurized on the inside."

I've thought about that, but I really don't think that would be much of a factor given the pressure wave that would be generated by a projectil moving through the brain matter. That would have to be several hundred, or perhaps even thousand, times greater than the either the systolic or diastolic pressure in the head.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Here we go...

Frame 313, showing the position of the blood cloud in relation to to the back of Kennedy's head. (edited to include the words in bold)

In order for that cloud to have come out of the REAR of Kennedy's head, the motorcade would have to be moving in reverse...

http://www.hunt101.com/img/072010.jpg

Edited to change the pic to a link. Link goes to a still frame of the Zapruder film showing Kennedy being shot.

 

[Sergeant Bob]

Mike Irwin

That would be VERY intersting to see.

You mean the cadaver experiments? Yeah, I started searching for references after I started my post. Haven't been able to find anything substantial yet though.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Bob, yes, sorry, the cadaver experimentation.

We know from the work of others (Thompson and LaGarde) that a bullet impacting a cadaver suspended from the wrists, or a weight simulating a suspended cadaver (Fackler) won't cause much in the way of oscillation, and that a high speed jacketed bullet is hardly noticable at all, but in that situation the physical arrangement isn't conducive to showing what would happen to a smaller object, like a head, attached to a loose pivot point...


You know, I think I really have the bug to do some experimentation...

Rigging up a pintle-type mount wouldn't be that hard, something that could roughly equal the range of movement of the human neck.

On top of that would go head sized mellons...

Oh Mal? Could I use your range for some experiments in the spring?

 

[ARperson]

Frame 313, showing the position of the blood cloud to the back of Kennedy's head.

MISREAD ON MY PART. SORRY. The original wording (in italics above) could have been taken either way. Apparently I took it the wrong way. Again, sorry.

Also, you cannot use a melon to simulate reaction (forward or backward) because your melon (the fruit) is not attached to a neck and torso as Kennedy's melon (his head) was. When trying to duplicate crimes, one must be vigilant in getting all the parameters exactly the same or the results are pointless. So all the melon and baked bean cans in the world don't mean diddly.

I have quite a bit interest in this story myself (must be something about being born on the 22nd). And while I haven't read every book (every? really.), I have read quite a few (more than 10). I do give credence to the secret service agent shot for a couple of reasons. First, the guy who came up with that theory started out trying to prove the Warren Commission was correct so he had no reason to come up with some crazy idea that contradicted them. Second, his focus was on nothing other than ballistics, trajectories, geometry, and physics. No politics. Third, he published a picture of said agent with the AR15-type rifle. (That alone doesn't support the theory, but at least the rifle was there and the theory can't be discredited on that account). Fourth, when the author of the theory mentioned the name of the agent, said author wasn't received to well by the agent. If it was incorrect, the agent would have a strong case for slander. I wouldn't stake my life on the theory to be sure. But it's the strongest case I've read yet to explain the 2nd shot and it's results.

Finally, there is no way the bullet that passed through Kennedy's neck, came out his chest, entered and exited Connally's torso, then passed through Connally's wrist, and lodged into his thigh is the same round that explodes a skull. The ballistics just aren't the same.

All this being said, it does not answer the 'why' question at all. It does nothing to shed light on Oswald's guilt one way or the other. And it does nothing to shed light on any of the other players in the story.

 

[STW]

Several years ago when they relooked at the Warren report a lot of testimony was on television. The only part I that kept my interest was the ballistics. They showed films of tests with animals demonstrating, among other things, the influence of the major muscles in snapping the head back.
The posturing of the politicians as the sought assurance that these were old films and they personally had nothing to do with harming animals was somewhat pathetic. However, one did admit that, as a child, he had seen a similar reaction from a shot rabbit (but it was years ago before he was enlightened). I still can't understand how the death of a president is not worth the sacrifice of even one goat even if it means solving the case.:banghead:

 

[Mike Irwin]

ARPerson...

"Frame 313, showing the position of the blood cloud to the back of Kennedy's head."


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Dammit!

That is not what I meant to say!

I MEANT to say "IN RELATION to the back of Kennedy's head!"

The next paragraph, however, should make very clear what I was talking about.

"Also, you cannot use a melon to simulate reaction (forward or backward) because your melon (the fruit) is not attached to a neck and torso..."


Hence, my comment about rigging up a mellon on a pintle mount in a subsequent message. That would at least give some simulation to the neck's range of motion.

It's really difficult to say, but it appears that Kennedy's torso doesn't move (at least much) in relation to the head until well after the shot hits.

 

[Mike Irwin]

STW,

Years ago, in college, I saw a full body convulsive spasm caused by head trauma.

The individual was playing rugby, and took a knee to the side of the head, causing a severe concussion. For a few moments it look as if his body was trying to form a circle, with the spasms pulling his legs up and his head and torso back.

 

[ARperson]

Mike Irwin

No problem. I can't even count the number of times I've had to edit posts (hopefully before I hit submit) because of errors in typing. Case of the brain working faster than the fingers. At least that's my excuse.

Hence, my comment about rigging up a mellon on a pintle mount in a subsequent message.

I was typing my message when you wrote that one, so I didn't see it until after mine was finished and submitted. But I think you're on to something.

One other point to make regarding Kennedy's head position in relation to his being hit the second time: he was already starting to move his head forward and downward (from the force of the first shot) and his torso was also already beginning to slump forward a bit by the time the second shot connected. That is another piece of the puzzle that would be difficult to re-create.

 

[cordex]

Hmmm ... you may be right, Mike.

How'd you plan on rigging up that pintle mount to the melon? Could you simulate the spine's offset from the centerline of the head?

 

[Roper]

....and J.R. shot L.H.O. because............?

 

[Gewehr98]

After watching Nova the other night...

And discussing the whole scenario with a co-worker friend of mine (retired field-grade officer) who wasn't a fan of JFK, we came to one conclusion about the 6.5x52 Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge:

It was one hell of a varmint round.

 

[Abenaki]

I have a few questions on this.

Would ball ammo have this type of explosive effect on a head shot?
I do know that a varmint round such as my 22-250 would do this.

Also, if there was not a cover up.......why did they seal the records for
50 years or what ever time it was?

Abenaki

 

[P226]

In 1978 didn't they change it to 4 shots fired?I kinda remember
that a man was hit by chips from the sidewalk from a round
that missed.

I did see monday where they lined up two maniquins in car
seats and used tubing to show the path of the "magic" bullet.
Does anyone believe the "magic" bullet made all those turns,
seven wounds in two people and was found in the hospital
in perfect shape.What about the bullet fragments in JFK's brain
and in the Gov(Connolly sp?)?How come they will not say what
their weight is?Sunday night FOX had a show that said there is
dna and cloth fibers on the bullets and fragments but will not be tested.
They also showed how the FBI and presidential detail destroyed
evidence by cleaning the limo at the hospital before photo's were taking.
Now there was no dna when this happened,but cleaning the car
before photo's were taking should not have happened.Plus
the 6th flr had reporters and cops and people walking around
leaving footprints and making it impossible to see if someone walked
from the window to were the rifle was found or if anyone was
even at window before the police went to the 6th flr.

 

[ARperson]

Also, if there was not a cover up.......why did they seal the records for

To protect the Kennedy family.

From what I haven't figured out yet. But apparently they wanted immediate descendants dead and gone before they brought out the awful truth.

 

[Lennyjoe]

ABC is broadcasting their version of the Kennedy Assasination tomorrow at 9 Eastern. Its even in 3D scenario. Will make for interesting viewing.

 

[Stealth101]

Records.............

They sealed the records to protect this nation and the American people....
I believe that JR shot LHO because what he did know was dangerous to some.....whether he was a shooter, we will never know from him....I still think it is intresting how he protested his innocence, and that he was being set up ! .....Thats why he was shot...what he did know, he might sing next..... The hand of the spooks is evident....and as several of the documentaries have pointed ,out Oswald worked for the CIA in New Orleans! Was he used just as he stated, for a patsy, as cover for something far more sinister!

 

[Stealth101]

The Records..............

Bill Dalys ...Investigative Reports " The Men Who shot Kennedy" Is the most compelling documentary I have seen.....from the underworld interviews and the apparent CIA links ....if the records were opened it would blow us all away....IMHO the sealing of the records had nothing to do with the Kennedy family but everything to do with us!

 

[mephisto]

Has anyone ever shot a Mannlicher-Carcano? I have. It sucks. have you ever seen the diagram of the room where lee Harvey took the "shots"? the casing are all in a very tight area. When I shot this fine rifle, Mannlicher-Carcano, I took three fast as I could shots and came up with a couple of facts, or maybe thesis.
1. The bolt is a piece of crap. It is very hard to move with a smooth action. Kind of sticky, I don’t know if that is a common occurrence with said rifle.
2. The spent casings flew. Far. Not really in the same area. 5-10 feet from each other.
The ballistics of this “case†are so inconclusive, my own opinion., Even experts have conflictive views.
So what do I think? Who really gives a shiet. His dead. So are 75% of the people there, another conspiracy theory in this fiasco. Its sad that there are people that devote so much time to this distraction but than again I play to much golf, so says the wife. If it was me I would use a photon destabilizer canon from 500 meters.

.

 

[JohnKSa]

The shots that LHO would have had to make have been duplicated on at least 3 occasions that I am aware of. Using the proper equipment and a towed target moving at the proper speed and shot from a tower of the proper height, etc.

Having been to Dealey Plaza and looked out the window next to the one LHO would have used, I have to say that it didn't look like a difficult shot to me. Dealey is a LOT smaller than it looks on TV/photos.

A few years ago, I got interested in this and read every book I could locate(I own more than 30 on the topic and have read beyond my own library) and watched every documentary on the subject I could find. I own a copy of the Zapruder film on VHS with a section that goes through frame by frame with the frames numbered.

My conclusion, for whatever it's worth is that Oswald did it. To date, I've not seen a shred of supportable, conclusive evidence that he didn't.

I've seen a lot of things that raise questions, but absolutely nothing that could prove that there was someone else present or that LHO couldn't have done it.

I will allow that it is possible that the SS agent in the chase car may have accidentally contributed to the situation with an negligent discharge. There are some interesting problems that this explanation fixes (why the SS cleaned the car before the investigation and why the brain disappeared). Regardless, that doesn't eliminate LHO as the assassin or automatically mean that there was a conspiracy.

I've come to one other conclusion. It only takes one crackpot a second to propose a theory and make up some supporting evidence. It takes a lot of people a lot of time to disprove a theory and disprove the supporting "evidence"...

 

[4v50 Gary]

You mean it wasn't suicide after all?

I doubt if our children's children will know the truth. BTW, when in Dallas, do see the 6th Floor Museum. It's still considered a crime scene so they won't let you pose for a snapshot (camera, not gun) with your rifle at that window.

 

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

I work in downtown Dallas next to Dealy Plaza. Over the last week or so as I've been walking to lunch or otherwise outdoors I've managed to hear a whole spate of new and increasingly outlandish conspiracy theories spouted by sidewalk CSI analysts. Almost any time of the day or night you will still encounter sightseers wandering around the Plaza, pointing and photographing the landmarks as if it had happened that day.

Dallas especially is still full of conspiracy theorists and there are young ones coming up to replace the aging ones who are dying off.

As for me, I imaging I'll be making my annual pilgrimage over to the grassy knoll late one evening to sow verdigris-encrusted rifle brass of unspecific origin to thrill the tourists.

Want to help, Mike?

Regards,
Rabbit.

 

[JohnKSa]

As for me, I imaging I'll be making my annual pilgrimage over to the grassy knoll late one evening to sow verdigris-encrusted rifle brass of unspecific origin to thrill the tourists.

I'll never go to Dealey again without a couple of cartridge cases in my pockets. Some 8mm, maybe a little 6.5 Swedish.

 

[George Hill]

Zapruder Film? THat's nothing. You gotta see it from that other photographer's perspective. It CLEARLY shows who the shooters were.

 

[280PLUS]

do i believe that oswald was the only shooter?

yes

do i believe there was a conspiracy behind it?

yes

will i ever know for sure???

no,,,

i was in KINDERGARTEN when he was shot

why a kindergartener still remembers exactly where he was and what he was doing when he found out,,,i have no idea

but ive been listening to this doo doo ever since to the point where i want to



oh well,,,gives the talking heads something to do, i guess

saw one on the discovery channel, the one with the watermelon in the beat up lincoln,,,

the "marksman" they had was about as fumbly with that bolt as you can get,,,but still pulled off the shots,,,and its only (according to discovery) a 190 foot or 63 yard shot at a 10" target

most of the shooters on this board could probably pull that off

and,,,have i gone to dealy plaza and taken pictures or tours?

no,,,i'll pass