BHP FAN
Member
Remember,if you call,they've gotta roll [comes with the job] but it's tough to whistle that bullet back,and if you called,you are at least partially responsable for the outcome,morally,even if not legally.
Man shot by police in Seattle for brandishing a rifle
- Thread starter MikePGS
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notorious
Member
BHP... I was being sarcastic... I was saying don't blame the cops, blame the guy who called the cops if you want to keep up the chain of blame.
woodybrighton
member
Sad but predictable end.
alcohol plus guns bad end answering the door drunk and armed isn't going to help matters
uk police actually tour schools with an Dumbarse video of kids playing with air soft guns and how it could all go horribly wrong.
happy fire is dumb.
most people won't be able to tell the difference between live and blank rounds being fired.
alcohol plus guns bad end answering the door drunk and armed isn't going to help matters
uk police actually tour schools with an Dumbarse video of kids playing with air soft guns and how it could all go horribly wrong.
happy fire is dumb.
most people won't be able to tell the difference between live and blank rounds being fired.
alaskanativeson
Member
I don't believe there is such a thing as an overreaction when someone (drunk or sober) points a weapon at you.jasper275 said:
The only period here is that this is your opinion. From what limited amount of coverage I've read, not only did the suspect refuse to cooperate with police instructions to drop the gun, he made what would reasonably be considered an aggressive move. If someone points a gun at you it's hard to assume anything other than the fact that you're in danger.MT GUNNY said:
In case you've never had a policeman point a weapon at you, let me tell you: ANY reasonable person will do exactly what they're told to do. If you disobey when a cop has his weapon out, you're going to get shot. If their actions are wrong, they'll be punished for it later, but you don't argue with a peace officer who is giving you orders unless you are willing to get shot. You could be Mr. Rogers, but if the alcohol in you tells you to point your weapon at police, you will get shot. The police will be justified in doing so even if the gun is loaded with crayons.parisite said:
Firearms ownership is a right in our country. With that right comes great responsibility. If you shirk that responsibility, you risk penalty. The penalty for unsafe use can reasonably include losing your life. I feel bad for his family and friends, he probably was a good guy who did something very stupid. However, all, repeat; ALL of the blame lies with him. It's not his neighbor's fault he got shot. It's not the cops' fault he got shot. It wasn't Smirnoff's fault he got shot (assuming they were vodka martinis.) From what I've read, it's the fault of someone who got drunk and pointed a weapon at police. If there's more to the story, that could change, but there's no way I see how anyone can blame anyone but the kid based on what I've seen.
moooose102
Member
That sucks, a bright, intelegent young man, with the rest of his life ahead of him. Ended by making a stupid mistake. He was smart enough to know that if you point a gun at a cop, you are going to get shot. That is called self defense. Even if the gun was unloaded, that 14" blade on the front is considered, and rightfully so, a deadly weapon. Oh the wonders of alcohol. Yipie. I feel terrible for his family.
What school do they teach a student that it is law that they are supposed to drop their handled weapons upon demand of a police officer?
The Fox TV show COPS?
I will hardly call that school, but I sure did learn a bunch of LAW watching that show. Mainly KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT, if being investigated. You do not have to talk. If you must feel the need to talk, have a lawyer present.
Other than that, don't tell on your friends either, or try to run COPS over while fleeing from them. You might get shot.
The Fox TV show COPS?
I will hardly call that school, but I sure did learn a bunch of LAW watching that show. Mainly KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT, if being investigated. You do not have to talk. If you must feel the need to talk, have a lawyer present.
Other than that, don't tell on your friends either, or try to run COPS over while fleeing from them. You might get shot.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Drunk, armed, and stupid, a deadly combination.
notorious
Member
If someone doesn't know that you don't point a gun at cops and if you do, you better drop it when they tell you to drop it... then I can only say the Law of Natural Selection will take care of it, and it has pretty much been a foolproof law.
Even before the "Wild West", the only real true claim to "make you' - "drop" your weapons was.... How big YOUR posse was.
Now-a-days, the law has a much larger posse than most.
I believe, drunk or not, everyone has the right to defend themselves.
Whether it is the COPS/SWAT/NATIONAL GUARD/MARINES/INTERPOL/NWO threatening YOU or not.
If you believe in LIBERTY, self defense is god-LIKE.
Not to say man is god but......
Defending yourself is.
P.S And all know from watching COPS... they are not the most gentle creatures on the planet.
Now-a-days, the law has a much larger posse than most.
I believe, drunk or not, everyone has the right to defend themselves.
Whether it is the COPS/SWAT/NATIONAL GUARD/MARINES/INTERPOL/NWO threatening YOU or not.
If you believe in LIBERTY, self defense is god-LIKE.
Not to say man is god but......
Defending yourself is.
P.S And all know from watching COPS... they are not the most gentle creatures on the planet.
alaskanativeson
Member
Too bad there's so little defense against stupid people. They keep reproducing.
woodybrighton
member
Mr 1973 very odd point of view.
taking on the states forces because your drunk or stupid will get you dead fast.
taking on the states forces because your drunk or stupid will get you dead fast.
BHP FAN
Member
I'm guessing if the kid had stashed his Mauser in the hall closet on his way to the door,he'd have gotten a $125.00 fine for disturbing the peace,and maybe a hangover in the morning.Instead,we have a tragic outcome for everybody involved.
Vonderek
Member
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- Jul 9, 2006
- Messages
- 1,537
Funny how everyone here takes the cop's word as indisputable that the rifle was pointed at him. What makes you think police are not capable of "embellishing" their story after the fact to cover their butts? I've had it happen to me.
Nobody here was there to know what actually happened. All we seem to know is the kid answered the door of his residence with a rifle in hand and was gunned down for it. I think we've all seen plenty enough of videos to see how heavy handed police reaction can be to a situation. The old lady in New Orleans assaulted and disarmed after Katrina immediately comes to mind. Without the video evidence the story probably would have been that she pointed a gun at the officer too.
Something about this whole story about the college kid doesn't sound right.
Nobody here was there to know what actually happened. All we seem to know is the kid answered the door of his residence with a rifle in hand and was gunned down for it. I think we've all seen plenty enough of videos to see how heavy handed police reaction can be to a situation. The old lady in New Orleans assaulted and disarmed after Katrina immediately comes to mind. Without the video evidence the story probably would have been that she pointed a gun at the officer too.
Something about this whole story about the college kid doesn't sound right.
Babbalanja
Member
Reason and The Police State
Alaskanativeson wrote:
". . . you don't argue with a peace officer who is giving you orders unless you are willing to get shot."
You know, I long for the days when I lived in a free and democratic society where the police truly exercised reason and compassion for their employers, the citizenry. Just because police can "justify" deadly force does not mean that they have no choice but to use deadly force. This country is socialistic and our police forces have become paramilitary. Their actions are dictated by policy rather than reason. The job of a police officer is difficult and dangerous, obviously, but an educated man who voluntarily chooses to become an officer must possess the intelligence to assimilate a vast amount of data quickly and exercise restraint when called for. A young man in a vintage Wehrmacht uniform with a K98, whom I've been told has only blank rounds would probably cause this ex-peace officer to back out and reconsider the data. Just because you can end someone's life does not mean you must.
Alaskanativeson wrote:
". . . you don't argue with a peace officer who is giving you orders unless you are willing to get shot."
You know, I long for the days when I lived in a free and democratic society where the police truly exercised reason and compassion for their employers, the citizenry. Just because police can "justify" deadly force does not mean that they have no choice but to use deadly force. This country is socialistic and our police forces have become paramilitary. Their actions are dictated by policy rather than reason. The job of a police officer is difficult and dangerous, obviously, but an educated man who voluntarily chooses to become an officer must possess the intelligence to assimilate a vast amount of data quickly and exercise restraint when called for. A young man in a vintage Wehrmacht uniform with a K98, whom I've been told has only blank rounds would probably cause this ex-peace officer to back out and reconsider the data. Just because you can end someone's life does not mean you must.
EmGeeGeorge
Member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2005
- Messages
- 806
????
...the stupid cord got pulled in this thread...
man points rifle at cop... cop shoots man... justified...
...the stupid cord got pulled in this thread...
man points rifle at cop... cop shoots man... justified...
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
member
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2007
- Messages
- 13,146
It's sad that he Darwined himself with eccentricity and bad judgment brought on by alcohol, since it would appear he was a genius, both musically and otherwise. Neighbor heard police issuing warnings...sounds like a solid good shoot.**
**Ordinarily, I wouldn't believe cops for 2 seconds in after-story following a deadly incident. I wouldn't *necessarily* disbelieve either, but not automatically believe. But here, we have an independent witness, interviewed by a journalist, who himself audibly heard the police issuing multiple warnings to drop the weapon, do we not? That's how I understood the story. But babbalanja, your point is very well-taken, thank you.
**Ordinarily, I wouldn't believe cops for 2 seconds in after-story following a deadly incident. I wouldn't *necessarily* disbelieve either, but not automatically believe. But here, we have an independent witness, interviewed by a journalist, who himself audibly heard the police issuing multiple warnings to drop the weapon, do we not? That's how I understood the story. But babbalanja, your point is very well-taken, thank you.
statelineblues
Member
Alot of assumptions being made here...
No one knows if the young man was drinking that night (not stated in the story) - but the possiblity is there.
Maybe, when the cops showed up, he thought it was his friends playing a joke on him - so he reacted that way.
The point is, none of us were there and we can only use the information that news media put into their story to form an opinion.
But if I was called to a "shots fired" situation, I would have to believe the gun was real, the ammo was real, and there was a clear and immediate danger to my life if that weapon was pointed at me. And I would have reacted the same way.
No one knows if the young man was drinking that night (not stated in the story) - but the possiblity is there.
Maybe, when the cops showed up, he thought it was his friends playing a joke on him - so he reacted that way.
The point is, none of us were there and we can only use the information that news media put into their story to form an opinion.
But if I was called to a "shots fired" situation, I would have to believe the gun was real, the ammo was real, and there was a clear and immediate danger to my life if that weapon was pointed at me. And I would have reacted the same way.
alaskanativeson
Member
I'll agree that we've gone down a bad road in this country. Decency used to be much more obvious. Responsibility used to be assumed to exist. Since neither is the case at large any longer, the police can't do what Barney Fife and Andy Taylor did in Mayberry. I agree that being a police officer requires a high caliber person to do the job correct, but as difficult a job as it is I'm not going to fault someone for shooting a person pointing a weapon at them.Babbalanja said:
expvideo
Member
If it's even an issue, you need new friends.
franconialocal
Member
To clarify....
It's not the type or style of firearm that got the kid shot.....
It's not his style of dress.....
It's not that he may/may not have German and/or Nazi symbols...
It's not that he re-enacts battles/historical....
It's because he did not IMMEDIATELY comply with an order to drop a weapon that the police have NO idea is loaded or not, that was being pointed AT them, blanks or otherwise, teenager or young adult aside.
It's not the type or style of firearm that got the kid shot.....
It's not his style of dress.....
It's not that he may/may not have German and/or Nazi symbols...
It's not that he re-enacts battles/historical....
It's because he did not IMMEDIATELY comply with an order to drop a weapon that the police have NO idea is loaded or not, that was being pointed AT them, blanks or otherwise, teenager or young adult aside.
EmGeeGeorge
Member
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- Aug 24, 2005
- Messages
- 806
hmmm...?
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008585702_shooting03m.html
Seattle police in 2006 confiscated rifle held by slain student, then returned it to his father
The rifle held by a University of Washington senior when he was fatally shot by Seattle police Thursday is the same weapon taken from him...
By Christine Clarridge and Jennifer Sullivan
Seattle Times staff reporters
The rifle held by a University of Washington senior when he was fatally shot by Seattle police Thursday is the same weapon taken from him by officers in late 2006, according to Seattle police Chief Gil Kerlikowske.
On Friday, in the wake of the New Year's Day shooting of Miles Allen Murphy, police defended their actions, and witnesses described what they heard and saw before the 22-year-old man lost his life.
At a news conference, Kerlikowske said the Mauser Kar 98K rifle that Murphy "pointed at officers" had been confiscated from him in November 2006 "for safekeeping."
Neither police nor Murphy's parents would provide details about what prompted police to seize the weapon in 2006.
Police said, however, that Murphy's father made repeated requests for return of the rifle and, ultimately, they gave it to him less than three months later.
Michael Murphy, of Maple Valley, said Friday that he'd given the rifle back to his son for military "re-enactments" because it was his son's property and his son was an adult.
Murphy did not specify when he returned the weapon to his son. He said the earlier incident had no bearing on his son's death.
It "doesn't change what happened. ... It is senseless and tragic, and we're dealing with what happened here," he said.
Kerlikowske also characterized the shooting as a "tragedy," but said he stands firmly behind his officers' actions.
The police chief said decades of research show that officers facing firearms cannot safely deploy nonlethal tactics, such as firing Tasers.
"There isn't another option available ... when you're facing a firearm," Kerlikowske said. "We don't face lethal weaponry with nonlethal means."
Report of shots fired in alley
According to Seattle police, the UW student was killed around 2 a.m. on New Year's Day after officers responded to a call about shots being fired by a group of males in an alley west of the 5200 block of 17th Avenue Northeast.
Police learned from witnesses that one of the men lived in a basement apartment of a multifamily boardinghouse. Officers staged themselves at the top of a narrow staircase leading to the basement entrance.
As they did so, police said, Miles Murphy emerged from the basement wearing a World War II-era German military uniform and carrying the Mauser Kar rifle with affixed bayonet in both hands.
The officers identified themselves as Seattle police and ordered Murphy to drop the weapon, police said.
Murphy pointed the weapon at the officers, Kerlikowske said, then lowered it, then pointed it at them again "while taking a step forward."
The officers said they had direct eye contact with Murphy during this exchange and that Murphy did not utter a word, the police chief said.
Two of the officers -- 10-year-veteran Kirk Waldorf and 7-year-veteran Adam Elias -- fired a total of seven rounds at Murphy.
The young man -- well-known on campus as a smart, eccentric history buff who loved to participate in WWII re-enactments and who would even show up in class dressed in a historic uniform -- died later at Harborview Medical Center.
The cause and manner of his death were not released by the King County Medical Examiner's Office on Friday.
Waldorf and Elias, neither of whom has been involved previously in an on-the-job shooting, have been placed on routine administrative leave pending an investigation.
Kerlikowske said he expects an inquest to be called into Murphy's death.
The two men with Murphy when he was firing the rifle told officers the three of them had been drinking earlier in the evening, police said.
Police said they found alcohol, live ammunition and World War II memorabilia in Murphy's home.
Daniel Ray, a resident of the complex, said he had talked to the three men about half an hour before Murphy was shot.
"They were totally lucid and cooperative, not belligerent and not swaying," Ray said.
Ray said he, his wife and his brother had returned home at about 1:30 a.m. Thursday when they saw Murphy and two other men shooting a rifle into the air in the parking lot.
Concerned, Ray and his brother approached.
Ray said Murphy and his friends were "sort of embarrassed -- like kids," when Ray pointed out that their actions could be dangerous. One of them told Ray, "It's not a real gun. Well, actually, it's real, but we're shooting blanks, and we only have two left."
Another neighbor then started yelling at them to stop, Ray said.
"They shuffled away into the alley," Ray said. "Then [Murphy] dropped to one knee and fired the last two shots." Ray said he believed Murphy "was kind of re-enacting a New Year's celebration, when it was very common to shoot rifles into the air."
Murphy and his friends then walked down to the basement, and Ray unloaded his car and went inside.
When he last saw Murphy, Ray said, the young man was holding the gun "safely, with one hand on the barrel and one hand on the stock, slightly pointed up."
Ray was at his computer in his hallway, directly above the basement stairwell, when he heard officers identify themselves and order Murphy to drop the weapon.
He then heard shots.
"It seemed to happen super, super fast," Ray said.
"I don't know if he was stunned, and not used to the police yelling at him or what, but he might have just froze," Ray said.
Ray said his neighbor was basically a "good kid," quiet and shy, who seemed to wear his uniforms and costumes as a sort of "fashion statement."
According to a friend, Murphy studied German and Scandinavian culture, could play piano, violin, banjo and guitar, and had aimed to be a professor of German literature.
Despite Murphy's fascination with World War II, Spencer Bray said, his friend never espoused Third Reich ideologies.
Ray said he heard later from police that they thought Murphy might have hostages.
"They thought they were going into a very difficult, dangerous situation," Ray said. "He wasn't aggressive. He was a good guy, but of course there was no way for the police to know that then."
Christine Clarridge: 206-464-8983 or [email protected].
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008585702_shooting03m.html
Seattle police in 2006 confiscated rifle held by slain student, then returned it to his father
The rifle held by a University of Washington senior when he was fatally shot by Seattle police Thursday is the same weapon taken from him...
By Christine Clarridge and Jennifer Sullivan
Seattle Times staff reporters
The rifle held by a University of Washington senior when he was fatally shot by Seattle police Thursday is the same weapon taken from him by officers in late 2006, according to Seattle police Chief Gil Kerlikowske.
On Friday, in the wake of the New Year's Day shooting of Miles Allen Murphy, police defended their actions, and witnesses described what they heard and saw before the 22-year-old man lost his life.
At a news conference, Kerlikowske said the Mauser Kar 98K rifle that Murphy "pointed at officers" had been confiscated from him in November 2006 "for safekeeping."
Neither police nor Murphy's parents would provide details about what prompted police to seize the weapon in 2006.
Police said, however, that Murphy's father made repeated requests for return of the rifle and, ultimately, they gave it to him less than three months later.
Michael Murphy, of Maple Valley, said Friday that he'd given the rifle back to his son for military "re-enactments" because it was his son's property and his son was an adult.
Murphy did not specify when he returned the weapon to his son. He said the earlier incident had no bearing on his son's death.
It "doesn't change what happened. ... It is senseless and tragic, and we're dealing with what happened here," he said.
Kerlikowske also characterized the shooting as a "tragedy," but said he stands firmly behind his officers' actions.
The police chief said decades of research show that officers facing firearms cannot safely deploy nonlethal tactics, such as firing Tasers.
"There isn't another option available ... when you're facing a firearm," Kerlikowske said. "We don't face lethal weaponry with nonlethal means."
Report of shots fired in alley
According to Seattle police, the UW student was killed around 2 a.m. on New Year's Day after officers responded to a call about shots being fired by a group of males in an alley west of the 5200 block of 17th Avenue Northeast.
Police learned from witnesses that one of the men lived in a basement apartment of a multifamily boardinghouse. Officers staged themselves at the top of a narrow staircase leading to the basement entrance.
As they did so, police said, Miles Murphy emerged from the basement wearing a World War II-era German military uniform and carrying the Mauser Kar rifle with affixed bayonet in both hands.
The officers identified themselves as Seattle police and ordered Murphy to drop the weapon, police said.
Murphy pointed the weapon at the officers, Kerlikowske said, then lowered it, then pointed it at them again "while taking a step forward."
The officers said they had direct eye contact with Murphy during this exchange and that Murphy did not utter a word, the police chief said.
Two of the officers -- 10-year-veteran Kirk Waldorf and 7-year-veteran Adam Elias -- fired a total of seven rounds at Murphy.
The young man -- well-known on campus as a smart, eccentric history buff who loved to participate in WWII re-enactments and who would even show up in class dressed in a historic uniform -- died later at Harborview Medical Center.
The cause and manner of his death were not released by the King County Medical Examiner's Office on Friday.
Waldorf and Elias, neither of whom has been involved previously in an on-the-job shooting, have been placed on routine administrative leave pending an investigation.
Kerlikowske said he expects an inquest to be called into Murphy's death.
The two men with Murphy when he was firing the rifle told officers the three of them had been drinking earlier in the evening, police said.
Police said they found alcohol, live ammunition and World War II memorabilia in Murphy's home.
Daniel Ray, a resident of the complex, said he had talked to the three men about half an hour before Murphy was shot.
"They were totally lucid and cooperative, not belligerent and not swaying," Ray said.
Ray said he, his wife and his brother had returned home at about 1:30 a.m. Thursday when they saw Murphy and two other men shooting a rifle into the air in the parking lot.
Concerned, Ray and his brother approached.
Ray said Murphy and his friends were "sort of embarrassed -- like kids," when Ray pointed out that their actions could be dangerous. One of them told Ray, "It's not a real gun. Well, actually, it's real, but we're shooting blanks, and we only have two left."
Another neighbor then started yelling at them to stop, Ray said.
"They shuffled away into the alley," Ray said. "Then [Murphy] dropped to one knee and fired the last two shots." Ray said he believed Murphy "was kind of re-enacting a New Year's celebration, when it was very common to shoot rifles into the air."
Murphy and his friends then walked down to the basement, and Ray unloaded his car and went inside.
When he last saw Murphy, Ray said, the young man was holding the gun "safely, with one hand on the barrel and one hand on the stock, slightly pointed up."
Ray was at his computer in his hallway, directly above the basement stairwell, when he heard officers identify themselves and order Murphy to drop the weapon.
He then heard shots.
"It seemed to happen super, super fast," Ray said.
"I don't know if he was stunned, and not used to the police yelling at him or what, but he might have just froze," Ray said.
Ray said his neighbor was basically a "good kid," quiet and shy, who seemed to wear his uniforms and costumes as a sort of "fashion statement."
According to a friend, Murphy studied German and Scandinavian culture, could play piano, violin, banjo and guitar, and had aimed to be a professor of German literature.
Despite Murphy's fascination with World War II, Spencer Bray said, his friend never espoused Third Reich ideologies.
Ray said he heard later from police that they thought Murphy might have hostages.
"They thought they were going into a very difficult, dangerous situation," Ray said. "He wasn't aggressive. He was a good guy, but of course there was no way for the police to know that then."
Christine Clarridge: 206-464-8983 or [email protected].
Last edited:
FoMoGo
Member
Yep... if I were in the officers shoes, I would have dropped him.
Jim
twoclones
Member
Nothing funny about it.
We were asked if, based on the story reported, we thought the cops over reacted. Questioning the facts of the story is off topic.
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