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School Lockdown

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by GullyFoyle, Mar 1, 2006.

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  1. GullyFoyle

    GullyFoyle Member

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    My children (ages 10, 13) were telling me about practice "school lockdown". I suspect this practice has been instituted nationwide since Columbine, where an announcement comes over the PA system and the Teacher locks the door and herds the children into the corner of the room to give the appearance that there is no one in the room.

    After thinking about this for a few minutes it seemed pretty counter-intuititive. I didn't follow the details of Columbine very well, but it seems to me that the kids that survived were the ones who got out fast, and that those being hunted were saved by running away. Seems to me that if there was a homicidal maniac bent on killing as many children as possible that the best way to insure his success would be to lock the kids in so they can't away from him (or them).

    So, needless to say, after giving it some thought, i have instructed my children that in the event of a REAL lockdown, they are to GET OUT and GET OUT FAST, and KEEP RUNNING. (they announce that the practice lockdowns are "practice") I got the usual, "but that's against the rules" stuff, and i had to make it clear to them that they are to break the rules and physically force their way out if the teacher attempts to stop them.

    Andbody else given this any thought? Given their kids instructions regarding "lockdown". (isn't that what they do in prisons?)
     
  2. Hockeydude

    Hockeydude Member

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    Well lets say the gunner is on the same floor and hallway your children are on. I think running out into the hallway would be a big risk in that you might catch the killer's attention, and he will start shooting. I think a locked door would be safe, assuming that the killer doesn't break it down.
     
  3. bogie

    bogie Member

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    If they're on the first floor, they should maybe go out the window. I think that too many of the "lockdown" rules are more about control than anything else, and providing a semblance of security.
     
  4. ribbonstone

    ribbonstone Member

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    In a more dangerous area I guess...14 or 16 years ago (been retired 5 years) had a couple of lock down situtations due to either students or intruders with guns on campus. In the worst case, he was looking for one specific student to shoot...luckly, not one of the ones locked down with me. One of those color-coordianted youth orgnization things.

    In the first had security guards and local police running around trying to capture the kid (back then, didn't shoot them so often)..who managed to climb onto a flat roof which was visiable by 1/2 the school building (the side facting that gym roof...call it 800 kids (1/2 the school population).

    Natural selection...the problem kids gathered around with windows to watch no matter how much you'd try to stop them...so I gave up and hid the good kids as close to being aligned with a heavy metal object....of it need be, behind one of the bad-fat ones.

    In the second, the kid was in my class (his second day...a transfer student) and when he knocked over his book bag, a crappy nickle plated .380 (Davis...or whatever incarnation those Zinc wonders were back then) slid across the floor. He fielded it like a second base man, scopping it up on his way out the droor at a full run.
     
  5. Hawkmoon

    Hawkmoon Member

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    I know you mean well, but I think you are absolutely, 100% wrong.

    First, you should not instruct your kids to disobey teachers. This instills a disrespect for authority. (Not that authority needs to be respected at all times, but disrespect should be reserved for authorities who act like dictators.) If you have a problem with the school's policy, you should address it head-on with the superintendent and the board of education rather than teach your kids that it's okay to break rules they don't happen to agree with.

    Secondly, that last place a kid should be if there's a gunman running loose in the school is out in the corridor playing moving target. Lockdown means LOCKdown. The doors to the classrooms are locked. Yes, a shooter can shoot through the doors. But if he can't open the doors, he can't see what he's shooting at.

    IMHO, as a member of a profession (other than education) that regularly deals with school security issues, I believe on balance your kids will be safer locked in a classroom than out in the hall hoping they don't meet the shooter(s) before they make it out the door. (And then hope there aren't other shooters outside watching the doors -- don't forget that other school shooting where the kid pulled a false alarm, then shot the kids as they exited the school.)
     
  6. Maxwell

    Maxwell Member

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    If we're talking cheap school doors and the current Swat strategy of "Wait outside until the shooting stops", That gives the shooters pleanty of time to mess with the locks or shoot through the door itself. Especially if it has a visible window in it.
    Then theres the fact these kids know how to make bombs. They will also know the current tactics to stop attacks (they've obviously been rehearsing them). Im not going to plot out ideas, but lets just say it wouldnt take much thinking to get around lockdown procedures.

    Personaly I believe the only solution to dealing with any madman attack in any situation is armed citizens, armed employes, or an ample number of armed guards stationed if that establishment dosnt have enough of those.
    The best way to stop a shooter is to shoot them.
     
  7. TarpleyG

    TarpleyG Member

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    I see Hawkmoon has been drinking the koolaid...are you a cop or teacher maybe?

    The way I see it, this is no better than a zero tolerance policy. It leaves no room for decision making or discretion on the student's part or the teacher's.

    You are your kid's parent and I have 100% confidence that you know what is best for THEM, not the school administration.

    Sometimes authority has to be usurped.

    Greg
     
  8. GullyFoyle

    GullyFoyle Member

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    Yes, that was something i was taking into account.


    I ALWAYS teach my children to QUESTION authority, and make up their own mind, the only authority they are not allowed to question is ME :D. (just kidding).

    If there is gunner looking to kill random kids i would rather trust my kid's legs vs. the security of a locked door.

    And i guess the main question i would ask, if Columbine had a lockdown policy would the body count have been lower or higher? (i'm guessing higher, but again, i'm no Columbine expert)

    (p.s. haven't figured out how to quote other people in grey yet...)
     
  9. Powderman

    Powderman Member

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    They forgot one important part about the lockdown practice that would be the most effective:

    "After students are placed in the part of the room furthest from the door, the teacher shall instruct the students to cover their ears.

    "The teacher shall immediately don the school-issued Peltor Presidential hearing protectors, and (utilizing the issued combination) will secure the shotgun kept in hidden storage in the classroom. This shotgun will be kept loaded alternatively with buckshot and slugs.

    "After manually loading the first round of buckshot, the teacher will position themselves to cover the doorway, and will remain in this position until the all-clear is sounded.

    "NOTE: The teacher is instructed to fire, without hesitation, if any hostile intruders attempt to enter the classroom." :what: :what: :eek: :evil:

    Would'nt that be just too cool?
     
  10. RyanM

    RyanM Member

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    So does the public school system. Any kid with a functioning brain realizes that teachers don't know crap by 6th grade at the latest.
     
  11. Hockeydude

    Hockeydude Member

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    Actually, after Columbine police departments have applied new strategies where they have designated first response officers, who's job is to enter the school as soon as possible, and elimnate the threat before backup arrives. I'm not sure if this is nation-wide.
     
  12. Chrontius

    Chrontius Member

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    I've never thought that the lockdown idea for violent shooter stuff was good... now I just realized why -- in two words: Pipe. Bomb.
     
  13. migoi

    migoi Member

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    I would hope..

    GullyFoyle that after a statement such as this:

    that you would have the courage of your convictions and do one of two things. If you don't trust the school personnel to protect your children to the best of their ability you will immediately (as in tomorrow morning) pull your children out of that horrible school and educate them yourself.

    Lacking the resources to do that then please write a letter to your children's teachers stating exactly what you wish your children to do in case of a real lockdown so he/she won't waste anytime arguing with your children and can devote their attention to the other children. Accompanying this letter should be one to the principal and school board absolving them and the school district of any responsibility for what happens to your children when they take your advice.


    Ryan... this:
    is way too funny, since this (the not knowing crap part) is what students past the sixth grade usually say about their parents on a daily basis. Thanks for the laugh.

    migoi
     
  14. sam59

    sam59 Member

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    School Shooting

    I find it funny how quite a few have an opinion on how to do it better or the current way is crap etc.... but i bet you have not gone to your school and suggested anything different. There is so much misinformation in this entire thread it's scary.

    Hockeydude is correct:

    Departments in Arizona have training on active shooters in schools. Officer DO NOT sit around and wait for the shooting to stop as Maxwell suggested, they are taught to immediately search for the shooter.

    Lockdowns are not just for a person on the campus with a gun!! It could be any situation that poses a threat. A homeless drunk wandered onto the campus carrying a big stick. There could be any number of situations that cause a lockdown. Many times the lockdown is a result of something happening near the campus and as a precautionary measure the school gets locked down. So logically you want your kid running from the school directly into the problem area. F'ing brilliant.

    GullyFoyle:
    If you instruct your kids to do as you say, dont whine when they are suspended for it. You have your idea's for whats best for your kids and so do I. But if your kids are in a class with mine and cause a problem when its time to lockdown then that is unacceptable. Put them in private school.

    Schools have adopted a nationwide procedure for lockdowns, of course its not perfect, you can "what if" the policy until your blue in the face. The only reason people "what if" constantly is because they have no real argument or worse, have no realistic solution, but it's always easier to sit back and criticize.

    TarpleyG-
    You seriously want to leave a decision of this magnitude to 8-10 year olds discretion?? I hope I misunderstood that. Lockdowns are generally set in motion by the principal, school resource officer or security officers. To lockdown the school there has to be a need and the teachers will most likely have no idea at all why. So I certainly hope my kids teacher does not take it on themselves to exercise discretion by stepping out of the classroom to see if they can handle the situation better.

    "So does the public school system. Any kid with a functioning brain realizes that teachers don't know crap by 6th grade at the latest".

    That statment is just plain ignorant.
     
  15. C96

    C96 Member

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    sam59 has made several very good points, particularly the one about lockdowns
    that are not about a shooter on campus. Most of the lockdowns in my area have been
    caused by an incident in the general neighborhood of the school campus. They didn't want
    anybody leaving until the issue was resolved. A couple of kids running from the
    school into something like this could be a bad thing.

    And in case of an active shooter on campus, a moving target attracts the eye,
    and if the police are arriving could present them with more choices than they will need.

    allan
     
  16. RyanM

    RyanM Member

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    See what the public education system does to kids? They have no respect for their elders, because they spend 6 hours a day locked in a room with adults who deserve no respect. Like the one that had all the kids cross out guns on the worksheet, and the one that called bullet points "bubbles," etc. There are exceptions, but they're few and far between.

    I'm a staunch advocate of home schooling.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2006
  17. Lupinus

    Lupinus Member

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    if your kids are any more then a classroom or two from the door and thats hoping there is good cover near the door bad idea. Better idea is duck and cover then it is to make a run for it out in the open esspecialy if you don't know where the shooter is in the building. Sure he can shoot the lock out, but behind a wall under cover rather then in the open is a much better place to be when you aren't armed.

    Also you get in the way of responding cops. Cop comes into the school assuming all the children are locked down and the ones in the halls are the shooters, he sees something in your kids hand that looks like a gun, you get the idea. It isn't likly but then it isn't likly a man getting his wallet out would be shot at 47 times either by jumpy police, but the latter has happened.

    Not exactly true, in general by that age many kids think their elders don't know squat esspecialy in this age where they aren't taught to.

    If you can in any way home school your kids, DO IT. Not only will they get a better education they will be safer and not be exposed to the idiocy of the public school system in this country, private school if you hae the money and access to a good one is the next best idea.
     
  18. Hawkmoon

    Hawkmoon Member

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    If you think school doors are so cheap, suppose you stop by your local high school or junior high, close one of the classroom doors, and try to punch through it.

    No, I will not pay for the reconstructive surgery.
     
  19. History Nut

    History Nut Member

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    A comment about Columbine

    I attended a presentation by a fire officer that was on scene at the Columbine incident. He provided a LOT of detail that wasn't generally reported. The two murderers' original plan was a lot different than what happened. They had placed IEDs(not the term used then, but appropriate) in the school for the purpose of causing a school evacuation. They located themselves outside the school prepared to "snipe" the students and faculty after they evacuated to the parking lot. The parking lot was the standard location for the students to gather after a 'fire drill'. They were planning to kill as many as they could and then 'bug out' from their peripheral location. They had also placed IEDs in some vehicles in the lot for further casualties including the first-responding fire/police. He told of one fire truck that parked and when the members exited the apparatus, they saw an IED in a car right next to the truck! Fortunately for some, the IEDs either failed completely or were 'low order'. The murderers changed plans and advanced on the school. About then the police arrived which caused the killers to enter the school to avoid the police/sheriffs and begin their murders. The principle tradgedy was the law enforcement inertia in entering the school. The LEO commanders forgot the old principle that says: "a poor plan executed immediately is most often better than the 'perfect' plan implemented too late". Had the two killers' IEDs and plan occured as they intended, many more probably would have died and they might have initially gotten away from the scene.

    While I grasp the many concerns expressed here, ordering a rigid response of your children in a 'lockdown' situation is no better than the Columbine law enforcement command 'textbook' response in ordering the first arriving officers/deputies to form a perimeter and wait for SWAT to organize entry teams. Neither is the 'correct' answer. There are too many variables. I don't know a 'correct' answer. What do you tell your offspring? You may have to trust their immature 'better judgement'. If you raised them right, they may surprise you.
     
  20. Maxwell

    Maxwell Member

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    Fine and dandy, but is it bullet/flame/explosive proof?
    Or are they just going to point a rifle at and start shooting into a room with 20 kids inside?

    I dont have an alternative plan to offer, and I'll admit lockdown probly the best current solution to a complicated problem... but still, the bit that disturbes me most is it sounds like the tactics for saving a sinking ship by sealing off compartments.
    Yes you prevent 500 people from losing their lives, but you still condemn 20 or more if they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
    Then what your using for a barrier might not be up to that task if the attacker came with a plan in mind.

    The best option is to make sure these madmen dont have such an advantage in firepower to begin with. Arm the faculty or provide proper guards.
     
  21. foghornl

    foghornl Member

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    I don't have any skool-age kids anymore, but that whole 'lockdown' thing bothers me, too.

    Last time I was in the local elementary school (my voting place), I noticed that the classroom doors are about 1/3 glass...and not Plexi-Glas or Poly-carbonate, or even the 'Chicken-Wire' re-inforced stuff just plain thin sheet glass, and more glass than the average home door.

    Building maintenence guy got real P.O.'d when I asked him about the deadbolts he was putting in the glass doors...Key outside, thumbolt inside. How exactly whould that prevent some miscreant from shattering glass with a round or 2, or even a well-placed elbow, and then just reaching in and unlocking door ? ? ?

    Custodian ran to principal, who came back and demanded I leave the school grounds. I said "OK, but then YOU are going down for interfering in the voting process. Won't take but about 15 minutes for the Media to start showing up here." {said while waving cel-fone around} Leftist principal stormed off without saying anything else directly to me, but muttering something about "Smart-azzes who THINK they know more than me."
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2006
  22. Euclidean

    Euclidean Member

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    As always, the American educator is public enemy #1 on The High Road.

    Let me explain something to you all - I have studied my building and developed a contingency plan for this event, and in a lot of cases the best I can honestly do is have the students duck and cover in a corner of the room where the shooter couldn't see them behind a locked door (solid core with reinforced glass by the way quite sturdy) while I go out in the hall and drop the security barriers.

    The best personal weapon I have at hand is either a folding knife or better yet a wooden stool. If I bring my CCW, I am committing all sorts of crimes. It's not an option.

    As one of those teachers who doesn't know crap and shouldn't be respected I have decided ahead of time if I ever have to deal with this situation, I will use the limited tools I have on hand to do the best I can. I've planned for it as well as I can with what I have and what I am allowed to do. If someone is on campus looking to shoot students, they will literally do it over my dead body. I don't believe in playing hero but those are my charges and I am responsible for their safety even at the expense of my own.

    I too am doubtful the lockdown idea solves much, but it's a tool I have at my disposal and I will use it.

    It really amazes me how people will scream how I will murder their children if I were allowed to CCW at my place of employment, and then they blame me for inadequate school security measures.
     
  23. dfaugh

    dfaugh Member

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    I dunno

    but I gotta side with the schools on this one...While it might not be the ideal solution in all instances, its probably the best. Otherwise my mental picture is hundreds of kids streaming through the hallways where

    A) a shooter has a "target rich" environment
    or
    B) first responders are unable to do their various jobs--find the assailant, help any wounded, etc.

    Also, in the aftermath, its easy to account for the children...you don't have 100 parents standing around agonizing over the whereabouts and what-ifs of their child.

    And, believe me, I'm not one to blindly allow the school policies (or have my kids do so). My stepson once called me from a payphone near his school, and told me they'd had a bomb scare, and evacuated the building. He was afraid to re-enter the building, because all they had done was SEND THE TEACHERS AND OTHER SCHOOL WORKERS IN TO CHECK FOR ANYTHING "SUSPICIOUS"! I asked if they had brought in dogs, and he said no (was heavily into dog trainig at the time, knew alot of the K-9 officers, and how good a bomb dog can be). I told him to find his teacher, or principal or who ever he could, explain to them, and tell them that he was leaving school, and to contact me if they had a problem, and then walk home (only 3/4 mile). The next day he told his classmates why he left, several parents called me, and we eventually met with school officials to change the way they handled things. This was pre-Columbine, so that's why I think they were a little lax, but still...
     
  24. Ziryo

    Ziryo Member

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    Hmm.

    I graduated from High School nearly two years ago.

    The school district had three different policies: Code Red (fire), Code Yellow (unknowns in the school), and Code Black (bomb threat.)

    The plans for each, respectively, was: leave the school, lockdown, leave the school.

    Only once was a Code Black ever called and what happened was that everyone (everyone) ended up sitting on the bleachers waiting for the school to be cleared. After that I wondered how hard it would be for a bomber to call in a bomb threat after setting explosives near the bleachers...

    Another day there was a fault with the fire alarm and it went of about five or six times. After the first three times it was ignored.

    The doors in the high school was made of heavy wood with "bullet resistant" glass (chickenwire in 1/4 inch thick glass.) There's only one School Resource Officer on duty. If someone started shooting between classes I would book it. Period. I'm not going to go to my next class and huddle in the classroom with a bunch of other people.

    If something happens while I'm in class there's nothing I can really do except hope that nothing happens, like say...someone breaking the glass in classroom doors and tossing in a grenade or using a shotgun to blow the door of its' hinges (all classroom doors open out into the hall.) If the SRO is dead and there's no other people officers there I'm pretty much SOL until the police arrive...and 5 minutes can be a very long time...
     
  25. V4Vendetta

    V4Vendetta member

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    My .02

    I think that planning a stratagy for your kids is not possible for me to say without knowing the layout of your school. My elementry school had a emergency exit in every classroom so locking the door to the hallway sounds like a good idea for my ex-school. As for teachers carrying 1911's or G19's, I think that they should be able to if they desire, but they should have to practice every day to insure accuracy. They can cut down on the homework amount in order to have enough time at the range. Less homework, less time grading it. I've been home-schooled since the 5th grade so that's my reccomendation. You get to spend more time with them, you can make sure that they aren't taught that guns are inherently evil, etc.

    I won't say for most teachers, but the ones I had were evil. I went to a public school. Never again.
     
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